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Member |
I've had both. I vote for the 9mm for a couple of reasons but agree the .45 has real knock down power!(low velocity; from the right angle you can actually see the round going thru the air)So,
greater range w/ the 9mm, more rounds(the more rounds,the better although we dont think of the 9mm as a fire supression weapon...)interchangeability of ammo, easy weapon to fire(increased accurancy),easy to maintain, will fire dirty. |
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New Member |
Well, I have a H&K .45 ACP and the glock 9mm with the long barrel and cut out on top...can't remember the number now...? Anyways, as for shooting I have equal accuracy with both guns, but the punch of a .45 satisfies. Bounce the can twice and all that is left is shreds...good times. But the max clip of 12 is kind of a drag. Nothing beats a 33 round clip in the nine.
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New Member |
I respect everyone's opinions, and its great to hear that I have been able to produce a decent thread.
Me personally, in regards to the comments about magazine capacity in 9 v 45, while understandable, I still dont accept it. The way I see it, yes you may have more bullets, but when it takes two and three times as many rounds to put a subject down, you have just taken away the advantage of more rounds. lol yes i know it all depends on the shooter, just going off examples used in which required to shoot multiple times (LE purposes). But again, thank you all for posting, I look forward to hearing more responses. |
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Honor - Courage - Commitment Experienced Member  |
I'm in the minority here, but I think we should keep the 9mm.
Yes, a .45 round has more mass, so it delivers more "authority" WHEN it hits your enemy, thus ensuring he stays down, if you hit "center of mass". However, that's if/when you hit him. Remember the military has to plan around the "lowest common denominator". Most people shoot a lot better with the 9mm. They can put those "3 or 4 rounds needed to make an incorrigible assailant stay down" into him, whereas most folks likely wont even hit him at all with a .45, given they only have 7 tries and their odds of hitting the target are lower. Also consider, in most situations, unless you're in Somalia, you're not shooting guys who are charged up on drugs. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but I suspect that most shootings with pistols are in law enforcement situations, where you don't necessarily want to kill the perpetrator, just incapacitate them. Well, maybe you really DO want to kill them, but that's not what your boss (who's generally not ever getting shot at) wants. If you're really worried about them getting back up, aim for the neck if it's exposed, or the bottom of their chin. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned so far, in regard to magazine capacity, is that you're not always trying to make a kill shot. Sometimes you have to lay down suppression fire, and for that more is definitely better. |
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New Member |
ETC, all of your points are very well made and give definate substance to the debate. I do agree with you in regards to the fact most shootings are involving LE. I guess Im a little biased since I am at a predominately LE base and have been working LE for past 6 years. Its funny but true what you say in regards to the military having to work around the lowest common denominator. Very sad but unavoidable at time being.
In regards to kill shots, I see your point, but I dont see it as going for kill shots. Me personally Im not a very big fan of going for head shots beyond at most 7m. The target is too small most of the time and lowers percentage of getting a hit dramatically. If your wanting to stop your subject dead in his tracks at further distances, go for hip area. Knock out someones ability to move, there not going anywhere. Not to mention chance of hitting fumoral artery (sp). BTW, this "rant" here is stemming from AF going to 2 to chest 1 to head theory up to 15 meters away. It just seems ilogical to me. |
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Highly Experienced Member Quiet Professional A Silent Warrior BTDT Highly Experienced Member  |
Thanks for the info. Next time I get stopped for speeding by the Tennessee State Police I will make sure I say "Yes Sir. Thank you Sir" to them.  |
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Member |
Loading any pistol always takes two hands, one to hold the pistol one to manipulate the speedloader/magazine. By the way, a top break Webley can be reloaded almost as fast as an automatic.  |
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Experienced Member |
[/QUOTE]The real problem that the 10mm had was chamber pressure, which caused failure in a number of contenders. Overpenetration could be a problem with FMJ, but as the round was designed for the FBI.... [/QUOTE]
The 10mm was not designed for the FBI, it was designed for a pistol, based on the CZ-75 called the Bren 10. This gun came out in 1983 but wasn't very successful due to no magazines were produced for it. Jeff Cooper, of Gunsite fame, was one of the moving forces behind the Bren 10. The designers say down and figured an alternate round to the .45., 10mm(40 caliber), 180 grain bullet traveling 1,000 foot per second. After the Miami shootout, the FBI was in a panic to adopt the "ideal" anti-personnel round. After the computers clicked and whirred, they decided on the 10mm. The FBI purchased pistols from S&W and were on their way. BUT, the full power 10mm was so powerful, most FBI agents couldn't qualify with it. Follow up shots, as in a double tap or fail to stop drill, were difficult or impossible for most agents. So..... they downloaded it. Some smart guy at S&W figured out, that a downloaded 10mm would fit in a case the same length as a 9mm's. So, you could get the downloaded 10mm in a smaller size pistol. The result was the 40S&W. |
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Official Forum Furball Experienced Member  |
No it does not take two hands to reload an automatic. Some police departments train for wounded reloading and I know of one incident where a one handed reload saved an officer's life. All you have to do is drop the empty magazine, set the gun down, put the new magazine in the weapon, pick it back up, and release the slide. --------- Sincerely, Muttling Champion of the underdog and other household pets. |
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Member |
I never thought about it that way.
Well, then I suppose you could do that with a revoler, if you had to. |
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Member |
Technically, the designers of the bullet based it upon a "wish-list" put forth by Colonel Jeff Cooper, one that law enforcement embraced and listened to. The principle reason why Cooper was brought on board was because law enfocement was the target market from the beginning. Yup. Current 10mm loads generate only about 50% of the pressure that they were designed for, according to reloaders. Without the need for a longer case and even lower pressure than current 10mm loads, you can build a slightly slimmer and shorter weapon. Still, it becomes a matter of just how much you are willing to compromise on performance. It would have made more sense to choose a platform that shared identical operation but had two different upper slides/barrels/springs for different duties and user qualifications. The Glock and, unless I'm mistaken, the EAA Witness series of weapons have ease of interchangeability between .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 10mm Auto models. For the Glock platform, all you have to do is replace the uppers for all of the above three rounds and .357 SIG. Of course, if you prefer .45, you can use .45 Super in many .45 ACP semi-autos. The cartridge is almost identical (some .45 Super cartridges are practically indistiguishable from .45 ACP cartridges) to .45 ACP. Some Super loads can produce performance similar to that of 10mm Auto. Obviously, terminal ballistics will differ due to differences in cross-sectional density. |
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Member |
Yeah, I realize we could be talking all kinds of weapons and most of the discussions here talk about doing battle between 25 and 50 feet.
I prefer my 44 mag, stopping power and penetration power. With 240 grains, it's tough and has great muzzle velocity. I for one don't intend to knock them down, I want a shot where they die. I've seen people shot at really close distances with all kinds of weapons, and if the body doesn't want to die, it won't. |
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Starship Captain and all around good guy Experienced Member |
That's WHY you shoot them with the .45 - or in your case, the .44mag wheelgun - that way you don't give the body not wanting to die a choice in the matter. .45 caliber holes make invisible souls. |
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Member |
.45 wins easy!
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Yog Shoggoth!! Member  |
I carry a Wilson Combat CQB 1911 in .45 and after putting 1000+ rounds per month through that pistol, it is one of the easiest guns to shoot well.
In my dimension, we too have an intense dislike for the French.... |
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Member |
I have a Browning Hi-Power, it is accurate, 14+1, but when I saw how ineffective the 115g fmj was I loaded my own with 147g XTP HP as hot as I could there is a BIG difference. But I prefer to carry my Star Firestar in .45, it is only 6+1 but is accurate for a compact because of the bbl and slide, they are cone shaped at the muzzle end so they lock up in the same position after the slide rocks forward. I can hold 3in groups at 10yds
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Too close for missiles... Switching to guns... Member  |
Having both 9mm and .45ACP, I can say that I enjoy shooting the .45s more. Although the ammo costs a tad more, it is for me 1)more challenging to shoot, 2)more satisfying. On the range, I use 10 round Shooting Stars for the Springfield 1911, 13 rounders for Glock 21. Tons of 1911 parts and accessories, you trick them out anyway you like. Not much you can to to a 9mm.
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Member |
Well, I've heard just about every story there is on this thread except one. . . the NRA (National Rifle Association) and their individual State affiliates. Their business is politics. Like rust, it never sleeps. We have our pistols because of politics. We can lose our pistols for same reason. Everything in life is political. For instance, New York State requires you to have a license to have a pistol in you home. It is about $400 every couple of years. If you shoot a thief in you home without a license, they put you in jail and throw away the key.
I know you've heard all of this before, but I will ask you to join the NRA and your State affiliate in order for us to keep our pistols. Some of our State legislators would love to take our pisols away. Thank you. www.nra.org. |
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Member |
What does the NRA have to do with the main topic of "9mm vs .45"? This is not about the right to keep and bear arms, but the choice of pistol caliber, particularly by the military and peripherally by law enforcement agencies.
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Member |
Dear Mr. ProxyAccount:
If you don't believe the citizenry of our country should have pistols, do what most people do, nothing, and continue with your discussions of military pistols. |
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"I am the Sword of Light against the Darkness" Experienced Member  |
And Federal is made right here in MN  I've heard stories of the 10MM rounds being reduced pressure from the originally designed 10MM platform.  "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let people have guns ...why should we let them have ideas? --Joseph Stalin" |
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New Member |
Dear Fankhouser;
As proxy stated, your post doesnt have anything to do with the main topic of which caliber do you prefer. If its other than 9mm/45 thats cool too. The main thing I see is that this forum is supposed to refrain from solicitation. Even as I personally have no problem with the NRA, please follow the guidlines and try not to solicit. Greatly appreciated in advance. |
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Member |
Where's the love, man? Ah, well. For standard pistol training distances, .40 S&W is going to have very similar external ballistic performance. So, it's probably sufficient to allocate only one or two 10mm boxes per month and practice with .40 S&W most of the time. The 10mm Auto cartridge is designed to withstand about 60,000 psi, but the SAAMI specification, which most manufacturers fall at or under, is only 37,500 psi. The .40 S&W cartridge has a SAAMI specification of 35,000 psi or less. This unused capacity means that the 10mm Auto cartridge has enormous potential if you handload or buy from a manufacturer that exceeds SAAMI specs (i.e. DoubleTap). Of course, you'd have to go to an aftermarket or custom barrel and stronger springs, bushings, etc. |
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Member |
Dear Mr. Twisted1vy
Ideas are more powerful than guns. The idea of the NRA has more power than any 9mm Luger or 1911 45. I prefer the power of the NRA and the people who hold it up and the people in the future that will hold it up. And with any luck someday it will be you. I'm sure it will be. This is my idea of a powerful pistol. |
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Honor - Courage - Commitment Experienced Member |
50% is a "tad"? |
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Member |
As a police officer i was issued a glock 21 (.45) though i chose to carry a HK USP .45.
In Iraq i carried the M9 which constantly had feed problems. Besides the power of a .45, another issue is penetration. the .45 is safer cause it is such a slow, heavy round that the chances of over penetration are less likely than a 9mm. and Chief,no offence but LE is the same as the military, you dont shoot to wound..you shoot to kill. if you percieve someone as a threat enough to point a weapon at him,youd better kill him. we used the .45 HK UMP sub-machine gun on SWAT with gold dot hollow points because the chances of it going through the suspect and the wall and hitting the neighbors was less likely. I vote for .45 |
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Highly Experienced Member |
The reason for the conversion when the stock of 45's needed replacing was because having a separate supply line of .45 ammo just for the VERY RARE cases in which a sidearm will actually be used would have been stupid. Remember this started back during the Cold War. |
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Highly Experienced Member |
The issue Colt .45 was designed to be able to fire in just about any circumstance but they sacrificed accuracy to do it. With an issue .45 (one that has not been worked on) the joke used to be that the prefered range was stick it in the enemies belly and pull the trigger |
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Too close for missiles... Switching to guns... Member |
ETC, I buy them in bulk, reloads from Miwall at gunshows. Example, 9mm 48.00 per 500. 45ACP 80.00 per 500. But you are right about 50% more in cost, never thought of it that way. I have been firing Wolf 45, .223, 7.62x39. A little less but still shoots well. |
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