Pretty much a simple little survey of sorts. We currently have the M9 (Beretta 92FS 9mm)as the standard issue side arm for most military MOS's. I am just curious if there is anyone else out there that feels the 9mm is a piece of garbage and we should go back to the .45?

Got my vote !

K

There's no substitute for the old Colt 45, but if you happen to find a 9mm Luger and the extractor and the ejector don't break, well there's just something about the Luger that is magnificent!

I guess Im just one of those people that think, if your using a side arm, someone is too close and you need to knock em down. Not piss em off. Ill take stoping power over velocity any day.

You can hit target on the earlobe with a .45cal and knock it flat.

K

If the police had .45s instead of 9mm in the hollywood shootout, they would not have had to get rifles from a gun store. It might not have gone thru the armor but would have knocked em flat and let them close.

This is a no-brainer. Just ask the FBI about their tragic 1986 Miami shootout. On the linked chart note the weapons of agents Grogan and Dove, the two agents who lost their lives in the gun battle. The agents had to shoot the two suspects several times to bring them down--none of the FBI agents involved were armed with .45 caliber weapons.

Firearms Tactical Institute

By the way, there was an excellent movie made about this shootout several years ago. It airs on Court-TV or PAX from time to time--In the Line of Duty: The FBI Murders

As I understand it we converted to 9mm in order to conform to NATO. In my opinion it was a ridiculous compromise. The purpose of a side arm is to defend yourself in close quarters. A 9mm will injure an adversary, but leave him active enough to possibly still do you harm. 45cal. on the other hand will disable the individual most entirely. Made by Colt or whoever the 45. is superior for flat out stopping power and NATO should have conformed to us.

.45 brings 'em back alive. Baretta is mucho regretta. Give our guys back the firepower and the punch.

Right on redjohn. I may be wrong but another thing I think was an issue was the magazine capacity of a .45. However the way I see it, when it takes 3-4+ shots to bring subject down with a 9mm it doesnt matter. With a .45 its usually instant with one well placed shot. And dont get me started on the AF and there new policy of "two to chest one to head" beyond 7 meters from the subject.

I've also heard that the model 92 Beretta has a problem with not chambering the final round in it's magazine. Don't know if it's been worked out, but it could be a major problem.

.45 PACKS A WALLOP,/NO WORRIES AFTER-WARDS.

SEMPER FI

I have both 9mary mary and a 45cal. perfer the 45 over the 9mary mary. Have concealed weapon permit, I carry the 45cal. My 45 is over 33 years old and still shoot like it was brand new.
I go through a box of ammo for each every month.
Just about everyone that knows me, knows i'm a 45 cal. man.

.45 caliber: The premiere man-stopping round, proven over and over as an excellent heavy pistol round since 1911.



Muzzle velocity
14.7 g (230 gr) Full Metal Jacket: 260 m/s (860 ft/s)
11.9 g (185 gr) CCI/Speer Gold Dot JHP (from 5in (127 mm) barrel): 317 m/s (1041 ft/s)
14.7 g (230 gr) Federal Hi-Shok JHP (from 5 in (127 mm) barrel): 260 m/s (860 ft/s)
+ P loads

11.9 g (185 gr) JHP: 350 m/s (1150 ft/s)
14.7 g (230 gr) JHP: 290 m/s (950 ft/s)

MAYBE THIS?
.50 caliber: In pistols, the .50 is the hand-cannon of large calibers. Massive trauma and wounding.

SEMPER FI

I say we go back. It's not like the rest of NATO is going to drop 5.56mm if we do.

quote:

Originally posted by twisted1vy:
Pretty much a simple little survey of sorts. We currently have the M9 (Beretta 92FS 9mm)as the standard issue side arm for most military MOS's. I am just curious if there is anyone else out there that feels the 9mm is a piece of garbage and we should go back to the .45?

.45 any day!

I think the .40 cal was a compromise, going up to the 10mm, but the .45 was designed to drop a drug-crazed terrorist (also known as a Moro tribesman in the Muslim influenced areas of the Philipines). I say bring them back.

I have witnessed what the 9mm doesn't do. .45 any day.

While the venerable 45 was, in fact, designed to knock down the original uppity muslims and almost 100 years later is still relevent. On a personal note, I could never qualify above Sharpshooter with it. With the M9, I got Expert the first time out and every shoot afterwards.

quote:

Originally posted by Rannug:
I have witnessed what the 9mm doesn't do. .45 any day.

Same here.

quote:

Originally posted by redjohn48:
As I understand it we converted to 9mm in order to conform to NATO. In my opinion it was a ridiculous compromise. The purpose of a side arm is to defend yourself in close quarters. A 9mm will injure an adversary, but leave him active enough to possibly still do you harm. 45cal. on the other hand will disable the individual most entirely. Made by Colt or whoever the 45. is superior for flat out stopping power and NATO should have conformed to us.

The Baretta 92F was brought in because the US needed to maintain the bases in Italy. It was very simply a "Quid Pro Quo."

No studies were done, no one's opinion was asked, the change was simply done. No military member I have asked would take a 9mm over a .45. Many people I talked to owe their lives to the .45. I've also heard that .45s are like gold over in Iraq, as soldiers there are trying to get their hands on one because the 92F doesn't do the job.

The only way a 9mm can stack up to the .45 in stopping power is if you're using Black Talon or Gold Dot hollow-point ammo. However I have heard these two brands of ammo are now restricted.

Matt

quote:

Originally posted by jrdicks:
While the venerable 45 was, in fact, designed to knock down the original uppity muslims and almost 100 years later is still relevent. On a personal note, I could never qualify above Sharpshooter with it. With the M9, I got Expert the first time out and every shoot afterwards.

Colt?

I qualified with the Colt. It did take some practice.

I have a Sig Sauer P220 now. It's the straightest shooting .45 (hell, any pistol, except maybe the Glock 9mm) that I've ever owned. I was hitting bullseyes (within 2 inches) at 50 feet by the end of my first magazine.

I let my buddies shoot it whenever we go shooting down at the farm. We'll set up empty beer cans at about 75 or 80 feet and plink 'em off.

Everybody raves about how accurate it is.

quote:

Originally posted by RW60:
This is a no-brainer. Just ask the FBI about their tragic 1986 Miami shootout. On the linked chart note the weapons of agents Grogan and Dove, the two agents who lost their lives in the gun battle. The agents had to shoot the two suspects several times to bring them down--none of the FBI agents involved were armed with .45 caliber weapons.

Firearms Tactical Institute

By the way, there was an excellent movie made about this shootout several years ago. It airs on Court-TV or PAX from time to time--In the Line of Duty: The FBI Murders

Jerry Dove shot one of the bad guys as he climbed out the passenger's side car window,. The round entered under his left arm and penetrated to his heart. He SHOT AND KILLED Grogan and Dove, and wounded a third FBI agent after taking this hit. It didn't even slow him down.

In the FBI reenactment, one Agent said he emptied his 9mm then changed to a backup .38. "I realized the .38 wasn't working and went back to the power of the 9mm." Huh? The power of the 9mm? It's no more powerful than the .38. Maybe a little faster, but generally a lighter bullet.

The Miami office authorized their Agents to carry .45s, shortly after the shootout.