quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
My comment was this:

"'Professionals' are, to me, those of us who volunteered and became members of the REGULAR component of the Navy, Marine Corps, Army, Air Force or Coast Guard. The 'weekend warriors' are those who have made a commitment to the RESERVE components and the MILITIA (defined in 10 U.S.C., Section 311 as the National Guard). This is an important point to be made because we 'professionals' spent our time, 24/7/365 preparing for deployment, training for deployment and deploying according to the "Needs of the service"."

Plus, if you will notice I said "to me", meaning a certain perspective.

Let me try another example. To me a person is knowledgable if they have a doctorate degree. Anyone who does not have a doctorate is not knowlegeable. You are not knowlegeable because you do not have a doctorate.

Now it is not unlikely that someone would read this and take the word knowlegable for what it really means intelligent and well informed. By saying that they are not knowlegeable would be the same as saying they are not intelligent or well informed. It would not be unreasonable for them to take offense at that, even though that was not what I intended. If I put my own definition on a word that does not match the commonly understood meaning, whose fault is if the intent is misunderstood.

quote:

I stand by my statement and ask this: before you were called up, was your every moment consumed by the military service, or were you occupied in some other form or fashion with which to make a living? My comment was to pose the question as to whether the reservists and guardsmen called up and federalized (since the guard had not been federalized since WWII, how could they possibly have expected this to be any different, unless there was some insight that the rest of us missed?)

Please take a military history class, your lack of knowledge is showing. During Korea, over 138,000 National Guard soldiers were federalized with their units for duty in Korea; 8 infantry divisions, 3 regimental combat teams, and 714 comany sized units. During Vietnam, around 75,000 National Guard soldiers were federalized although only about 8,700 went to Vietnam.

quote:

view the war in the same light as those who do this as a profession when not in a crisis. I think it is a fair question. With so many troops speaking out against the administration on the war policy, and knowing from my experience it would result in at least Captain's mast (article 15 or office hours) and even GCM, I think it is damned fair to evaluate the situation from that viewpoint and determine why those troops are speaking out in that manner. Is it because they are the (my words) 'weedend warrior' or are they regulars and feel some other deep-felt disdain?

Actually you assumed the Soldiers who wrote the article were RF until it was pointed out they were AD soldiers in the 82d Abn. I do agree that they are unprofessional.

quote:

Mr. Catt chose not to look at the issue by my words.

actually I do look at the issue by your words, you want me to go by your intent. Your intent and the words you use do not match

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I have had others who agreed with me on point and I do not change my words.

You had one poster who agreed with the idea that RF soldiers feel more disconnect and morale issues than AD during a deployment. As an example he used his experience of 40 years ago.

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Linedoggie, I empathize with you on your deployment and I respect the work you have done thus far. You have done more recently what others, myself included, have done before in decades previous, and not as a result, necessarily, of a national emergency. Now I wish to ask you, sir, what your view of reservists and guardsmen was when you were with the regular component back in the day. It is a reasonable question that nobody seems willing to answer for some reason. Did you feel the same way then as you do now? Or did you see our reserve brothers and sisters as "temporary help" as you put it just now?

I will say that when I was AD I held the same prejudicial view that you hold. This was not based on any actuall knowledge, but is was a common viewpoint among AD. When I did go into the RF I found out I had been wrong.

quote:

By the way, if you want to put it into month terms, my tour as active duty regular was 168 months, since you brought up the 46 months AD since 9/11.

ahh you really love that one upmanship don't you?

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Finally, Tomcatt, I do not base my experience on only 7 reservists. There were more than 7 assigned to our command, more like 150. That is a pretty sizable number. After the initial enthusiasm wore off and the prospect of goint to a full ground assault came to view, the whining began; some with the regulars, but far greater among the reservists.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
You're the one calling name, whining, crying and being hard to get along with, so, please do, go.

Ah yes in my first post I said I thought you were a fool, then no namecalling after that.

Do we run down the list of namecalling you have done post after post after post until told to stop? This does not even discuss the direct and implied insults you have repeatedly posted. I never said I did not call you a fool, but now you want to make is seem like it was only me who was being hard to get along with?

Stick around here a while, if your skin is that thin you will not last long.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatt:
Anyone who does not have a doctorate is not knowlegeable. You are not knowlegeable because you do not have a doctorate.

Now it is not unlikely that someone would read this and take the word knowlegable for what it really means intelligent and well informed. By saying that they are not knowlegeable would be the same as saying they are not intelligent or well informed. It would not be unreasonable for them to take offense at that, even though that was not what I intended. If I put my own definition on a word that does not match the commonly understood meaning, whose fault is if the intent is misunderstood.

You misspelled 'knowledgeable'!


Doc Commander

Sorry I am most fluent in typo.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatt:
Sorry I am most fluent in typo.

Roger that.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatt:
Actually you assumed the Soldiers who wrote the article were RF until it was pointed out they were AD soldiers in the 82d Abn. I do agree that they are unprofessional.

Actually, I made no assumption. "I have an underlying question with regard to the authors of this article...are they "professionals" or are they the "weekend warriors"?" This is a quote from my very first post on this thread. I asked whether they were regulars or 'non-regulars'. Your thin skin is actually showing in that you got bent out of shape when this dumb ol' former regular navy guy, who is too stoopid to realize that all the years I herd 'weekend warrior' talked about wrong and that I am gist too stoopid to share the ranks with you smart reservists and guardsmen as my stoopidity might rub off on ya'll, expecially since yew got out of the army to persoo yore edjukation in kollige. I'm so sorry that i x-sposed yew to my stoopidity.

Excuse me there, what experience do you have in a Regular Army unit about to deploy?

And what experience do you have training the ARNG or serving in a ARNG company to reach those highly erroneous conclusions?

I seem to remember lots of Regular Army guys jumping the fence because of EDRE's at the 101st. That was just a peacetime readiness exercise that was made to look like a wartime deployment. You might want to ask some of these Regular Army guys what happened in their units before Desert Storm with profiles and people evading deployment.

I seem to remember our Medics in the National Guard being certified EMT's. Do Navy Corpsmen you know have that designation?

BTW, look into the history of my avatar and you will see symbolism picked by a Wisconsin State Militia Unit from other state militia units that kicked azz in the Civil War.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ErichG2,

Don't really care.

Many Navy Hospital Corpsmen are EMTs and Paramedics. I was an EMT and additionally a Registered Respiratory Therapist. Another thing is that the Army's 91C(long) advanced training is the equivalent to the Navy's basic HM 'A' school (Hospital Corps School). As long as we are doing trivia, Navy Hospital Corpsmen have more MOHs, Navy Crosses, Silver Stars, etc. than any other community in the United States Uniformed Services, officer or enlisted, as well as the only enlisted corps in the U.S. Arsenal.

And by the way, what experience do you have in a U.S. Navy unit about to deploy? Oh, that is right, that is the Navy's mission - to deploy. My statements have not been with regard to the Army or any other service specifically. The experience I have with the Army is a one year tour at Fort Sam Houston attached to Brooke Army Medical Center, some of which was a tour at the Institute of Surgical Research.

So yes, most Corpsmen have that designation. It is even a NECC for the HMs attached to the Reserve units.

So Pete, whats your purpose other than trying to apparently Bait Posters?

I ask that as you come across as a snob, Whether thats a fair assessment or not, I dont know, yet you definitely seem to want to start a fight on this, the question is why?

When were you actually in Combat?

By that I mean have you first Hand Knowledge with Army Reserve/National Guard, vs. "Regular" Units in a Combat Zone? I'm trying to Gauge your credibility to judge these forces. Are you qualified to make such judgements, or just a "Dabbler"?

As you say your primary experience is with Naval Forces(according to your Profile), Though I do Know for a fact that USMCR units deploy regularly to Iraq/Afghanistan as a Cohesive Unit.

For Your Information, I'm Held to the SAME standards of Conduct, Physical Fitness, Weapons Qualification, NCOES, as an Active Duty Soldier.

My Oath of Enlistment is only slightly different as we also answer to the Governor's of our States, Reservist's do not. My CAC Card makes no Distinction between Active Duty, Reserves, National Guard. The Days of the Red ID Card are Long gone. you would have no way by looking at it to tell if I were Active or not.

Getting back on the Topic though...
Today as an example, My Detachment was developing MOI's & POI's, Resource lists on OEF/OIF pre-deployment Training using the 1st Army's Guidance. That's a Regular Army(Professional) unit. We also used ATIA, and CALL. This training is the exact same for an example with the 10th Mountain Division(Regular), or the 28th Infantry Division(National Guard) from Pa.

The Same Tasks, Conditions, Standards. The Same Evaluation Task Steps, there is no room for not being up to speed on say Warrior Battledrill 1 from FM 7-1-Drill just because one is "Summer Help".

Do they still deliberately throw sailors overboard from Navy ships for drug deals gone bad? Just wondering about that one because I heard it from some ex-Navy sailors in my National Guard unit.

Not that I would think the Navy was NON PROFESSIONAL at times.

Sean, what started this was not to bait anyone. I simply posted according to the subject of the thread. One of the questions I posed was whether those who authored that piece of tripe were "professionals" or "weekend warriors" a term that I have been exposed to continuously thoughout my naval career. It was also a "term of endearment" which our reservists used as well while stationed with us.

I was immediately rebuffed, called a fool by the first person to post after my original post, when I asked that question, without provocation.

I am not a snob, I am fairly bitter, I will admit about some of the things that are going on now as opposed to that when I was in. And, although we deployed in 1987 as a result of the ambush on USS Stark, in which 37 Sailors died when two Iraqi Exocet missiles were fired and demolished her, we drew hostile fire pay, were under fire from both the Iranians and Iraqis because of our mission, but were not allowed to consider it a combat tour. As a result, some of us who were injured were not allowed to be put in for the Purple Heart Medal.

The "snobbishness" is simply pride in my Hospital Corps, which the previous poster seemed to demean. You can say all you want about me and it really is no skin off my nose. But don't put down the Hospital Corps. About my affiliation with that community, you bet your azz I am a snob. I am damned proud to be a part of it and to deploy with whom I deployed over the years.

I am not looking for recognition. I only want a little consideration for my time. Consideration that when I have something to say, I won't be met with an insult right off the bat. I really don't care if you think me credible or not. That is not my business. But nobody has answered my original question except one who attempted to because he understood the spirit of the question: does the status of the reservists and guardsmen, as opposed to the regular members have anything to do with the perceived attitude and disillusionment in Iraq? Simple question. But a complex answer, I know.

If you feel insulted by my use of the words, I cannot help that. It was not meant as an insult. But it is what it is.

quote:

Originally posted by ErichG2:
Do they still deliberately throw sailors overboard from Navy ships for drug deals gone bad? Just wondering about that one because I heard it from some ex-Navy sailors in my National Guard unit.

Not that I would think the Navy was NON PROFESSIONAL at times.

Never heard of that one.

One other thing, Linedoggie, the topic is not professionalism or non-professionalism. It is the guys who wrote that article about the surge and how it seemingly violates the code of conduct for ALL Armed Services.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatt:
Actually you assumed the Soldiers who wrote the article were RF until it was pointed out they were AD soldiers in the 82d Abn. I do agree that they are unprofessional.

Actually, I made no assumption. "I have an underlying question with regard to the authors of this article...are they "professionals" or are they the "weekend warriors"?" This is a quote from my very first post on this thread. I asked whether they were regulars or 'non-regulars'. Your thin skin is actually showing in that you got bent out of shape when this dumb ol' former regular navy guy, who is too stoopid to realize that all the years I herd 'weekend warrior' talked about wrong and that I am gist too stoopid to share the ranks with you smart reservists and guardsmen as my stoopidity might rub off on ya'll, expecially since yew got out of the army to persoo yore edjukation in kollige. I'm so sorry that i x-sposed yew to my stoopidity.

I can understand the confusion, I was actually refering to this statement

quote:

I have not been able to find any inforama on the guys who wrote that article, but I suspect they are not the "professional" soldiers to which I referred before. The professionals take their code of conduct seriously, part of which is not to question the motivations of their superiors publicly nor officially. That is the point of my earlier diatribe.

By the intent you have stated goes with your words, you think they are RF soldiers. I guess it is possible that 5 individual augmentees all ended up in the same section with the same viewpoint, but it is unlikely.

As for edjumacashun, I have an AA degree that is all. I do have about 175 college units but that is because I have taken a lot of classes in subjects that interst me. The doctorate example was just that, an example. It was not intended to say I had a doctrate, that is my parents.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
One other thing, Linedoggie, the topic is not professionalism or non-professionalism. It is the guys who wrote that article about the surge and how it seemingly violates the code of conduct for ALL Armed Services.

I think it is all one and the same, by my understanding of the word those soldiers acted unprofessionally, or below the standards of what is expected of a professional. That has nothing to do with whether or not they were full time or part time prior to deployment.

I meant to comment on this earlier

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
As for my buddies, you need to get off of that issue, hoss, that is really none of your business. You are venturing into an area into which you don't need to go. What has happened to my buddies is none of your freakin' business, just as what happened to me. I think that is all that I need to say.

I never asked what happened to your buddies, or to you, i asked how long you trained together. This was to see if you could back up the assertation of

quote:

this plays significantly on the morale of the troops as the professionals are with shipmates and teammates they already know quite intimately

I bring this up as the professional RF Soldiers often work together for 10 years, and sometimes for an entire carrer. Who do you know better, the neighbor you have lived near with and served with for a decade or more, or the troops you served with for 18 months?

I have served on active duty in the Army, active duty Army National Guard, and now in the Army National Guard. I have 28 years Time in Service and a professional regardless of whether full time or part time. Actually I have deployed more in the Guard than I did on active duty. To say or insinuate that the National Guard or Reserves are not professionals is an insult and a assumption that is incorrect.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
My statements have not been with regard to the Army or any other service specifically.

wait what aobut your assertation that we were discussing an article written by a group of Soldiers who you suspect are non professional "weekend warriors"?

quote:

So yes, most Corpsmen have that designation. It is even a NECC for the HMs attached to the Reserve units.

So RF Corpsmen are expected to meet the same standards as AD?

This is true of all RF soldiers. PT, Hight/wieght, job skill qualification, 8 hours in MOPP(Army Standard AD and RF.)primary weapons qualification etc etc

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
The "snobbishness" is simply pride in my Hospital Corps, which the previous poster seemed to demean. You can say all you want about me and it really is no skin off my nose. But don't put down the Hospital Corps. About my affiliation with that community, you bet your azz I am a snob. I am damned proud to be a part of it and to deploy with whom I deployed over the years.

I hope you are not talking about me.

If I did demean your service as a Sailor or a member of the Hospital Corps I will apologize profusly. That was never my intent

I will say that I did intend to demean your conduct here and you choice of wording, specially after being informed that it was offensive then trying to justify that it is not offensive and is proper.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatt:
I hope you are not talking about me.

If I did demean your service as a Sailor or a member of the Hospital Corps I will apologize profusly. That was never my intent

I will say that I did intend to demean your conduct here and you choice of wording, specially after being informed that it was offensive then trying to justify that it is not offensive and is proper.

No, that was not aimed at you. Another poster made the comment with regard to HMs. It was in reference to the following comment:

"I seem to remember our Medics in the National Guard being certified EMT's. Do Navy Corpsmen you know have that designation?"

As though to say that HMs are not as highly trained as medics. I once saw a poster say something derogatory about Hospital Corpsmen and several Marines got involved for taking on "Doc". It wasn't me they were on about, but their comments were very, very offensive. A misconception is that the Navy Hospital Corps doesn't provide combat services. But we are THE medical department for the Marine Corps, so we go through Marine Corps training and deploy with them primarily. My deployments were not with the Marine Corps, but with a specialized surgical team tasked to provide onsight surgical and critical medical intervention. However, since we were there to support the Corps, we also deployed with them when necessary.

I appreciate your graciousness at this point. I simply wanted a civil discussion regarding my question, with reasons why or why not. I did not expect that SNCOs would show the hostility that has been shown here. I always thought there was more class than that. I know that as a Senior PO in the Navy, I was expected to counsel the juniors when necessary and provide guidance and correction, where necessary. Many of those corrections have to do with misconceptions. I guess that I am just a relic of a time past who expected that my experience and training would apply today, just as yesterday.

With regard to your education, it was not my intention to besmirch that, either. I know how difficult completing those degrees are. I am currently enrolled to complete a degree I started while still in the Navy, but when I was released from active duty, I lost my ride. My classmates are mostly Army and NG. They are my friends. We trade ideas and discuss politics indepth (our degree program is a graduate degree in International Relations). They ask me questions, and yes, one of the NG members announces "Weekend Warriors present" and he laughs. It is all in good fun.

I guess that my message here is that everyone needs to lighten up (myself included) and treat this thread as a discussion group, addressing the concepts and concerns of other, fellow warriors, whether professional, former professional, soon to be professional or otherwise. By the way, to me the amateurs are those who advertise in the back of "Soldier of Fortune" magazine. (Did I just step into it again?)

So if any of you want to have an enriching discourse with someone who genuinely is interested in how things can be made better, I am all ears. Just try to be a little civil about it.

Doc Commander - Charlie-Golf-One.

quote:

I simply wanted a snivel discussion regarding my question

There. I fixed it for you.

Grow up!

Holy crap PeteCDR.... man stop using all of those big words its tough for OLD infantry guys like me to read this...
Maybe I need bifocals?

mainedawg did you get my Krispy Kreme vs. cupcake remark? There is a KK on Bragg Blvd...

On East Bragg blvd past Mc Donalds or 24 east

cup of joe and a KK when I get back. I buy

Sounds good. I am at a different location right now. I ave some health problems so I could not travel this summer fall.

Let's take our talk to general board so we won't be off topic for the posters here. Renee's Cafe'

Well I was with NCR 22 (Naval Construction Regiment 22) for the invasion of Iraq in 2003 as part of TF Mike, 1st MEF. The so called professionals had a National Guard commander calling the shots and a good thing or they would have been sausage in the grinder. They lacked tactical profiency, leadership and cohesion... but they could build the heck out of plywood crappers and shaving stands!

The Army National Guard Engineers had to baby sit, feed, and protect them. They swarmed about like ants at a picnic.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
Grow up!

After reading the back on forth on this entire argument, what I see is that you made a broad judgment about "Weekend Warriors" and when you were called on it you fell back on a cut and paste war. Your comment was wrong so just acknowledge that fact and move on; nobody wants to see a thread filled with cut and paste BS.