quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
To make a clarification so that others can make a proper, unbiased distinction, the term "NON PROFESSIONAL" was used, not "UNPROFESSIONAL".

Is there a difference in meaning?

unprofessional

• adjective below or contrary to the standards expected in a particular profession.

Is that not what you have been saying this whole time, we do not meet the standards of a professional?

But I do see your point. Both un and non- mean not, but non- is generally used as more neutral. It still means the same thing, only differing by degree.

Any luck recalling how long you worked with your teams? Or, are you avoiding the question to keep from having to admit you are wrong about AD servicemembers working together longer than RF

"Usage
non-
The prefixes non- and un- both mean 'not', but they tend to be used in slightly different ways. Non- is more neutral in meaning, while un- often suggests a particular bias or standpoint. For example, unnatural means that something is not natural in a bad way, whereas non-natural simply means 'not natural'." Oxford Dictionary of Current English, Third Edition. Oxford Press. 2001. p.609.

This is the problem with someone becoming unduly emotional about a particular topic. The true spirit of one person's opinion is unfairly, irrationally and unreasonably criticized by the emotional observer.

Although I do not feel I owe you an explanation, I will do you the courtesy to give you one, anyway. Negative, that is not what I mean by "non-professional". My meaning is that there are those whose livelihood is the military. We lived in BEQs or BOQs or base housing. We were a community apart from the civilian community. We were segregated from the civilian community, only venturing out when necessary or desired, only to return to a 100% military community. By 100%, I also mean that our employment was strictly military; duty, work, meals and breaks, etc. We did not work in a building in the middle of the civilian community. And our paychecks were 100% military. Only when we "moonlit" was our pay augmented by civilian pay, as was the case for my company "Respiratory Care Services."

In the case of the "non-professional" only a portion of the time is spent with the military and the bulk of the pay comes from civilian salaries (the pay is augmented by military drill pay and benefits when called to active duty for extended periods. Remember that only when Congress took up the issue to extend Tricare, MGIB and SGLI to reservists and Guardsmen did those benefits become available to you.) The community in which they live is a civilian community. It is only when "called up" does the pay and living arrangement change. BUT, upon the expiration of the call-up period, the non-professional return to their civilian lives and receive their civilian salaries, once again living and working in the civilian community. The perspective is markedly different between the two. The perspective of the professional soldier, etc. is one that is military, without regret or reservation. For the career professional, we went beyond that eight year obligation of service and chose to stay in.

The reservists and Guradsmen, however, as you said before, were largely prior service. You, yourself, were only with the regular component for four years, then you chose to get out. I have no problem with that. Some folks aren't really cut out to make it a career. But the perspective for those who choose to get out and stay Reserve or Guard is one that apparently includes a choice to separate yourselves from the military to some degree. There is no 100% giving of all to the military. Only a portion.

That is my point. When deployed to an uncomfortable condition, it is not unreasonable for the non-professionals to become disillusioned. That is not why they signed up, necessarily. For the professional it is different. We gave our all and stayed in beyond the obligation (or there is the prospect of staying for those who have not reached the end of their initial enlistment). It is because it was for us.

Because you made a choice that is different, you should expect that the attitudes will be different. That is the point.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: PeteCDR,

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
"Usage
non-
The prefixes non- and un- both mean 'not', but they tend to be used in slightly different ways. Non- is more neutral in meaning, while un- often suggests a particular bias or standpoint. For example, unnatural means that something is not natural in a bad way, whereas non-natural simply means 'not natural'." Oxford Dictionary of Current English, Third Edition. Oxford Press. 2001. p.609.
amazing, that is just what I said, what is your point?
This is the problem with someone becoming unduly emotional about a particular topic. The true spirit of one person's opinion is unfairly, irrationally and unreasonably criticized by the emotional observer.

Although I do not feel I owe you an explanation, I will do you the courtesy to give you one, anyway. Negative, that is not what I mean by "non-professional". My meaning is that there are those whose livelihood is the military. We lived in BEQs or BOQs or base housing. We were a community apart from the civilian community. We were segregated from the civilian community, only venturing out when necessary or desired, only to return to a 100% military community. By 100%, I also mean that our employment was strictly military; duty, work, meals and breaks, etc. We did not work in a building in the middle of the civilian community. And our paychecks were 100% military. Only when we "moonlit" was our pay augmented by civilian pay, as was the case for my company "Respiratory Care Services."

In the case of the "non-professional" only a portion of the time is spent with the military and the bulk of the pay comes from civilian salaries (the pay is augmented by military drill pay and benefits when called to active duty for extended periods. Remember that only when Congress took up the issue to extend Tricare, MGIB and SGLI to reservists and Guardsmen did those benefits become available to you.) The community in which they live is a civilian community. It is only when "called up" does the pay and living arrangement change. BUT, upon the expiration of the call-up period, the non-professional return to their civilian lives and receive their civilian salaries, once again living and working in the civilian community. The perspective is markedly different between the two. The perspective of the professional soldier, etc. is one that is military, without regret or reservation. ah so we regret out choice? For the career professional, we went beyond that eight year obligation of service and chose to stay in.
Maybe you should re read the definition you posted of professional, none of what you just wrote is part of that. I understand that you feel there is a difference between AD and RF but they term professional and non professional, by your own definition does not fit the differences you describe. What the definitions you provided
(adj. 1. relating to or belonging to a profession 2. engaged in an activity as a paid job rather than as an amateur. 3. Competent. n. 1. a professional person. 2. a person who is very skilled in a particular activity.)
states is that by calling us non professional we do not belong to a profession, we are not paid and are amatures, we are not competent, not professional people, and not very skilled at what we do. and after calling us all that, you cannot understand why I would be insulted. This is based on the definition you provided so how can you say it does not really mean that, it means full time instead of part time. The Oxford Dictionary of Common English you value so highly got it wrong?
The reservists and Guradsmen, however, as you said before, were largely prior service. You, yourself, were only with the regular component for four years, then you chose to get out. I have no problem with that. Some folks aren't really cut out to make it a career. ahh so now I can't cut it? I got out because of promotional opportunities. Those getting promoted at the time all had college which gave them enough points. I transferred from AD to RF so I could go to college. I enjoyed the lifestyle and still kept my military career. would you like to describe why you decided to leave the service. I have a felling it was not by choice which is why I did not bring it up But the perspective for those who choose to get out and stay Reserve or Guard is one that apparently includes a choice to separate yourselves from the military to some degree. There is no 100% giving of all to the military. Only a portion. ah RF are not willing to give it our all either, man we are pathetic.

That is my point. When deployed to an uncomfortable condition, it is not unreasonable for the non-professionals to become disillusioned. That is not why they signed up, necessarily. For the professional it is different. We gave our all and stayed in beyond the obligation (or there is the prospect of staying for those who have not reached the end of their initial enlistment). It is because it was for us.

Because you made a choice that is different, you should expect that the attitudes will be different. That is the point.

I understand your viewpoint, what you do not understand is that by using incorrect terminology you are actually being insulting.

You say that you are not insulting anyone and that I am just imagining it. was I imagining your other insults as well? Hateful - ignorant jackass - hapless simpleton - mentally unstable - a liar(for using the online rather than print version of Oxford)

I guess I just imagine insult everywhere just as you said.

Any word on how long you served with your buddies?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tomcatt,

I am not using incorrect terminology. Just because you fail to understand the point or say that it is wrong does not make it so. This is my view. It is based on my experience, schooling, dealing with the non professionals, dealing on the command level with logistic support, etc., etc., etc.

You see insult because you want to see insult. That is not fair to the individuals who agree with me. I do not feel bad for saying it, nor do I take any of it back.

Now, to be more fair than you are being, I will say that I AM NOT a professional Sailor. I ceased being a professional sailor when I separated from the naval service. I am now purely a medical professional. Period. Notice also that every time I made the differentiation between professional and non-professional and cited my personal experiences, I tried to use the past tense, although there may have been a time or two when I got caught up in the moment and used the present tense. Those times were misstatements when and if I made them. However, I was a professional sailor for fourteen years. Were I to have become a reservist or guardsman, I would not be a professional military or naval person at that time, either.

I think you are insulting your own peers in the Guard by creating this tension and claiming some sort of superiority you do not have.

To give another example, if a candy striper volunteers at the local hospital, that does not make her a medical professional. It makes her an augmentee to the medical staff. That is a fairly simple concept that I think you just refuse to see. That is a pity.

I have not demonstrated the venom and sheer hate toward you that you have exhibited toward me and others who agree with this view. You simply see what you want to see, as inaccurate as it may be. You are arrogant when arrogance is not even warranted. And you have refused to be reasonable. Your view is not the prevailing view. It is your view and only your view. The definitions I have cited are the correct definitions. They are undisputed except by you. But what you do not seem to understand is that concepts go beyond simple definitions of terms. Concepts include other dimensions that are not as well defined. If you were to go out and ask others, without prefacing it with your own view, if they see a difference between unprofessional and non-professional, they will likely say there is.

Further, unprofessional is an adjective, as you continue to point out. But non-professional is a noun. A person is a non-professional when they do not participate in an activity as their primary means of making a living. Again, a simple concept.

Also, what I said about the term "professional" in the more recent post goes right along with the definition I posted. You do not belong to the profession of soldiering. You belong to the civilian profession of electronics and communications. That is precisely the point. You are no longer a professional soldier. Do you receive the active duty pay every month as a professional soldier? I don't think you do, especially if you retired from the Guard.

Your sarcasm does not do you justice. It makes a better point for me than for you. I think you have a pride issue that prevents you from saying that you do not have the market cornered on opinions and views.

Again, take care.

Just to make it stick out more what my point is, that you refuse to even consider.

Maybe you should re read the definition you posted of professional, none of what you just wrote is part of that. I understand that you feel there is a difference between AD and RF but they term professional and non professional, by your own definition does not fit the differences you describe. What the definitions you provided

(adj. 1. relating to or belonging to a profession 2. engaged in an activity as a paid job rather than as an amateur. 3. Competent. n. 1. a professional person. 2. a person who is very skilled in a particular activity.)

states is that by calling us non professional we do not belong to a profession, we are not paid and are amatures, we are not competent, not professional people, and not very skilled at what we do.

And after calling us all that, you cannot understand why I would be insulted. This is based on the definition you provided so how can you say it does not really mean that, it means full time instead of part time. The Oxford Dictionary of Common English you value so highly got it wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatt:
I understand your viewpoint, what you do not understand is that by using incorrect terminology you are actually being insulting.

You say that you are not insulting anyone and that I am just imagining it. was I imagining your other insults as well? Hateful - ignorant jackass - hapless simpleton - mentally unstable - a liar(for using the online rather than print version of Oxford)

I guess I just imagine insult everywhere just as you said.

Any word on how long you served with your buddies?

No, I meant every word of that because you have not said a thing to support a contrary opinion. What was not an insult was the issue of professional and non-professional, which you still don't get.

You insult from my first post because you wanted to see it. The other things I said, I did mean as an insult. For that I have made my apologies to others who may have been offended by them. I have not, as yet heard an apology from you for calling me a fool which was your initial assault on my opinion. So just back off, you have no room to speak on that subject.

As for my buddies, you need to get off of that issue, hoss, that is really none of your business. You are venturing into an area into which you don't need to go. What has happened to my buddies is none of your freakin' business, just as what happened to me. I think that is all that I need to say.

Again it appears you do not understand the proper usage of English.

profession

• noun 1 a paid occupation, especially one involving training and a formal qualification. 2 treated as sing. or pl. a body of people engaged in a profession. 3 an open but typically false claim. 4 a declaration of belief in a religion.

I was paid, I was trained and I was formally qualified, so it seems I was in the profession of soldiering.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatt:
Again it appears you do not understand the proper usage of English.

profession

• noun 1 a paid occupation, especially one involving training and a formal qualification. 2 treated as sing. or pl. a body of people engaged in a profession. 3 an open but typically false claim. 4 a declaration of belief in a religion.

I was paid, I was trained and I was formally qualified, so it seems I was in the profession of soldiering.

Get your money back from that reading tutor. I said "You are no longer a professional soldier." That is what I said because you ceased being a professional soldier after you left the regular component after your initial four year period. Then you became a professional civilian.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatt:
Again it appears you do not understand the proper usage of English.

profession

• noun 1 a paid occupation, especially one involving training and a formal qualification. 2 treated as sing. or pl. a body of people engaged in a profession. 3 an open but typically false claim. 4 a declaration of belief in a religion.

I was paid, I was trained and I was formally qualified, so it seems I was in the profession of soldiering.

Get your money back from that reading tutor. I said "You are no longer a professional soldier." That is what I said because you ceased being a professional soldier after you left the regular component after your initial four year period. Then you became a professional civilian.

Your provided definition of professional and your usage of the word do not match. Based on the actuall meaning of the word (based on your Oxford Dictionary of Common English, Third Edition. Oxford Press. 2001.) it is insulting. again pleas reread the definition you provided and please point out where it says full time vs part time. I look and look and look and I just do not see it there. somehow you do but have yet show it to me. Are you only posting partial definitions and editing out the full time part? I do not think so because the definition I read from the Compact Oxford English of Current English, Third Edition. Oxford University Press. 23 June 2005. http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/professional. retrieved 2 September 2007. says pretty much what yours did.

I will agree that I stopped being a professional Soldier (notice the proper capitalization) on the day I retired.

Yup, I know about the capitalization. Your conduct here does not prove to me that you deserve it.

My conduct because I do not agree with you and I do not condone you insulting RF servicemembers?

Hmmmm who has been so continually insulting that they had to be warned by a Mod?

I think you need to contact Mainedawg for clarification about who was being insulting in his view. I apologized for my side of it publicly but I have yet to see anything from you, since you called me a name first.

I do not need to cantact anyone I can actually read his post. If you read his post you will see that he was talking about namecalling.

Ah yes I said I thought you were a fool in my first post then desisted. Sorry.

Did you forget the continous insults post after post after post? ignorant jackass - hapless simpleton - mentally unstable - liar

Yes, I remember them. I never forgot them. Nor did I say them as an accident. I said them with all sincerity and stand by my words. And Mainedawg did not say to whom he was speaking, but he also mentioned calling other members out. Whichever fits, well, you know what you should do. I apologized to him for breaking the rules. That is not to say that I did not mean what I said.

Your insult toward me was to denigrate my opinion and doing me the discourtesy of not allowing me to have an opinion different from yours without chasing it with hate. That is where I have a problem with you. Needling me for information you are not entitled to regarding my buddies and what may or may not have happened to them or me.

And after calling me a fool in your first post, you continued to treat me as though you thought me a fool and denied having said it. To me that is not desisting, but continually calling me that detestable name. In my opinion, everything I said after that was well deserved.

No, acutally it was about the choice of wording not the opinion that I took issue with.

I even pointed out that I understood your viewpoint even if I do not agree with it.

The difference between RF and AD is one that has been discussed many time over the years here. Opinions have ranged from RF is useless to the RF actually exceed the AD in some areas of their job.

You appear to come across as saying your opinion is right and someone who does not agree with it is wrong. Opinions are not right or wrong they are opinions. I do not agree with your and stated is at such, not that yours was wrong.

I did point out some of the common misconceptions and falacies in your statements about RF, such as the fact that RF servicemenbers work together for far longer than AD do or that RF servicemembers are mostly deployed as units not as individual augmentees. Rather than cede any point you either ignore it or say you meant that RF augments the AD when in reality you had been specificly talking about individual augmentees.

My Main issues is the incorrect usage of a word that by its definition is insulting to those you describe.

I would again ask where in the definitions you provided does the issues of time spent on the profession ever come into play?

If one is not a professional they are an amature. again this is based on the definition you provided. You call us non professional this means not professional - amature - not competent. Your choice of words convey that meaning.

In your opinion the words mean something different but this is not borne out by the factual evidence that you provided.

quote:

Originally posted by comingofage:

quote:

Originally posted by 3recondoc:

quote:

Who are you to say this is just the tip? You don't know. If it was the "tip", there'd be a bunch more due to the fact the war has gone on for 6 years now.

I was comparing Iraq with VN. Maybe not clearly enough. I was making no judgement on how deep this sort of thing will go for this war and the troops over there.

I assume that we will have a clearer picture as concerns Iraq in 10-15 years. For many it takes time to process.

As far as the timing. For these NCO's or the guys that came back and took to the streets during my war.

If you think the dead are being well spent then you should say positive things. If you think the dead are not being well spent then you have two choices.

You can speak up while they are still being killed. Or you can speak up after the killing has stopped.

Not taking to the streets, right after I came back to CONUS, is a blot on my honor. I knew better. But I held my tongue. Brothers were dying and I sat quiet.

There is no honor in that. That is not what supporting the troops is all about.


.

We have completely different ideas on this. I'm old enough to remember the "love ins" and the protests against the war.. I saw my father and uncle suffer for them. Speaking out about a war that IS justified is fundamentally wrong. And there is no honor in that.

And I will continue to speak for the men and women who have died and are fighting now and who'll be fighting after I'm dead and gone. To me doing what the liberals and anti-war crowd did to the soldiers was horrible. And I'll go kicking and screaming to stop them from doing it again.

You can only speak for yourself. You weren't there. You have no idea. It's sadly pathetic hearing you tell a combat vet about his war and the effects thereof.

My niece died in a chopper crash in Karbala 14 months ago. You damned sure don't speak for her. My younger brothers have 6 tours between them with the 101st and 10th MTN. You don't speak for them either.

This is the closest you have come to resembling being reasonable in your posting with regard to this topic. You are still just missing it, though. The issue is not incorrect usage of any terms. The terms are not incorrect, they are just perceived as such. That is the point I have been trying to get you to understand. You want everything in black and white. But there are shades of grey that you don't see and even some that I don't see. That is not to say that you get a pass on your initial assault on my opinion.

If you don't agree, then you say, "I don't agree" and you are free to lay out your case and I can either agree or disagree and lay out my case. That is the essence of debate. That is not what you were doing. You said that I didn't know what I was talking about and that I was a fool. Then you continued to refresh that statement by your continual barrage of misinformation in the scheme of getting me to relent. I don't relent, though.

You speak from the angle of being a reservist and guardsman. However, you make the black and white statement that "if one is not a professional then he or she has to be an amateur." Do you not see how silly that sounds? That is like me saying that "I am not a professional lion tamer, so I must be an amateur lion tamer." when in fact, I have never attempted to tame lions, nor do I have any interest in it.

Your own statements are incongruous themselves. You say that you stopped being a professional soldier when you retired. By your own words that makes you an amateur soldier. That is just silly. My opinion is that you ceased to be a professional soldier when you left the regular component and chose to remain in the reserves. That does not make you an amateur, but it does not make you a professional, either. It makes you a civilian whose profession is electronics and communications outside of the military.

My original point is that the individuals who wrote the article that is the subject of this thread might have been "non-professional Soldiers" in that they were called up to fill the needs of the service rather than being in a C1 status in the regular component. That is also the essence of the regular components, being set apart as the professionals, while the reservists and guardsmen augment them in support, whether that is in direct combat, or to fill the vacancies at a certain duty station.

Perhaps the Guard Units and Army Reserve units deploy as a unit, but that is your experience. The Naval Reserve, Naval militia, and Marine Corps Reserves are not the same. They do not necessarily deploy as a unit, but may be called to deploy individuals to perform special services or taskings. When I was in the ME, for example, my team was broken up and we were assigned to different ships. That was to allow for some team members to survive. Still we deployed together, but received different assignments. That also happened with the reservists assigned to the Naval Hospital in Corpus Christi in support of Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Your view is one of absolutes, when there are few absolutes involved.

Getting back to the original point yet again, my point is that their perspective and perception is based in whole or in part on their status as reservists or guardsmen, if they are reservists or guardsmen, because that is a far more prevailing view among those augmentees than regular soldiers or units.

The Code of Conduct, for example, is prohibitive of communicating opinions that tend to discredit the service or the administration. Regular service members adhere to that fundamental to a far greater extent that guardsmen or reservists (that is based on numbers put out by the Pentagon, by the way. I do not have that citation readily handy, but if you can gain access to the HSDL - Homeland Security Digital Library - the numbers are in that database somewhere. I received them in my weekly briefing from them one week.) That is not to say that they do not respect the administration or their duty, they just tend to become a little complacent with it as primarily civilian personnel called up. That is the point. My own experience is that my team deployed within 48 hours of our alert, we didn't complain about it nor did we say that we didn't sign on for it. We simply did it as a part of our duty. Of course we were disappointed when we were told we would be home by Christmas and then were told we wouldn't, but we did our duty without grumbling or deriding the Bureau for sending us into harm's way.

That is not what can be said about some reservists or units of the reserves and guard. The non-professionals. They are anxious to get home, as all are. But the professionals have become better adjusted to the rigors and hardships of deployment.

rigors and hardships of deployment are not as tough as coming home well at least for me.

Understood. Heard many Marines and Sailors with similar sentiment.

I did say I did not agree and laid out my case but I said in a manner that you did not like. Oh well My opinion still stands and my only assault was on part of your words. There was absolutely no misinformation provided, only correction of your mistatement of fact. You have an opinion on what a word means, but your own provideded actual definition shows otherwise. That is like saying in your opinion the sun sets in the south and then show me a picture of it setting the the west

I speak from the angle of being both active and reserve. You from only being active. That you know or serves with a few RF is not the same as being one. You spoke about how RF servicemembers feel on deployments, but having never been one how could you know. Your statements were inaccurate and that is where I said you did not know what you were talking about. The 7 who worked for you do not provide much insite. I know some women and have had some work for me. Does that mean I know how women feel or know what it is like to be one? NO. I was not expecting you to relent on your opinion but I was expecting you to acknowedge fact. You continually ignore or sidestep that.

I did not say if someone is not a professional the must be an amatuer, I said you call us non professional, which by your provided definion mean amatuer. You can do something or not do something. The professional and amature only apply if you do something, not if you do not. If you do do something then you can do it as a professional or as an amatuer. That is where the engage in an activity part of your definition comes into play. Dont try to bring the orange into the apple discussion. The only part that is incongruous is that you still either have not read or do not understand the definitions you provided.

My statement that I am no longer a professional Soldier stands and fits YOUR provided definition. I am no longer belong to the profession of a Soldier, I no longer engage in that activity as a paid job. In fact I no longer engage in that activity at all, so I am not even an amatuer. While I was a professional Soldier in the Reserves specializing in communications and electronics I was also a professional in the civilian world. When you were moonlighting in a civilian hospital did you for that time become a non professional Sailor?

Reserve units mainly deploy as units and individuals may be deployed as individuals. Your assertation was that they mainly deploy as individuals. I can see that from your limited view you might see that as you took on some augmentees. I have worked for BDE, DIV and Joint HQs. The persective and information seen is a bit differnt there. Your team was broken up and spread on different ships so some stayed alive? not to have trained medical personnel on each ship? My view was not an absolute I did say they go both as units and as individuals, you just had the most common reversed. As for the Guard going in as a support role, again you are wrong. that is the job of the Reserves. the Guard goes in to do a job. As I said, we went over as a BDE HQ and took command of 3 Battalions. Does that sound like support? You were doing better when you used augment as that is the correct term.

We deployed on a bit longer scale, that is one benifit of AD over RF We used that time to train on the current TTPs in Iraq and to put a lot of bullets downrange. not to learn our jobs; that was not even part of it other than participating in the wargames that our soon to be Higer HQ (V Corps) was conducting to prepare themselves for deployment. While it was not 48 hours, we didn't complain about it nor did we say it was not what we signed up for. We simply did it as part of our duty just as you did, so yes is what can be said about RF units.

Yes there are RF servicemembers that that cannot be said about but there are also AD servicemembers as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Southall:
rigors and hardships of deployment are not as tough as coming home well at least for me.

I hope your next homecomming goes a little easier

Interesting, evidentally I am a Non-Professional, and so are My Fellow Soldiers in My Unit.

I served 3 years Active Duty before Joining the Guard. I was a Battalion Level Live Fire Certified Range Safety Officer handling all aspects of LFX's alongside My Commander.

Was a Battlestaff NCO at Brigade level during Northern Viking 97 & 99 and was working with Active Duty USAF/USN/USMC/USSF forces with No issues because of My apparent Non-Professionalism.

In the Aftermath of the World Trade Center Attacks, after over a Month of working Rescue/Recovery/Security Myself and 200 Others were called to Active Duty for 13 Months finally coming home in Nov. 2002.

Numerous Missions with the NYPD during 2002-2003 lasting approx 2 weeks at a time. I was chosen to help in the Pre-Mobilization training for several units getting ready to deploy, my area of expertise being Infantry Battledrills, and Weapons (M9,M4,M16A2, M16A4, M249, M60, M240, M2HB, M14, & Sovbloc Infantry weapons and Mines/Grenades)

In Early 2004 I came onto AD again to help in the Pre-mobilization of My Unit for Iraq. The NCO's, Officers I worked with all had been Active Duty before being in the Guard.

I served in Iraq as an Infantryman. We Lost 2 KIA and the Professionals who took over from us took 17 in 3 months in the exact same TAOR, go figure. I regularly coordinated Defence operations with USSF & 1CAV DIV, III Corps while running day to day Operations with CJ-SOTF Until My Company went back onto Patrol Missions.

I just gave up My Civilian Job to be AD again to help train troops for Deployments to Afghanistan, Iraq while awaiting our Next Deployment(to Guess Where, again).

We have Soldiers going through Active Duty NCOES, Air Assault, Pre-Ranger, Ranger, Pathfinder, Northern Warfare Climbing school, the full Gamut of Professional Army schooling. In fact the Only schools we are precluded from currently is Basic Airborne at FT. Benning, Ga.

While attending these schools we hold to One Standard, the same as the Professionals...

Since 9-11, 2001 I've been on AD for approximately 46 Months combined Total

Do I Kvetch and whine?

No, why? We are at WAR, I got to see Up Close and Personal the Opening round in Lower Manhattan, Some of My Friends were Killed that day, some of them were just Temps as well...


But Hey, what do I know, I'm just Temporary Help, like a summer program for High Schoolers.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LineDoggie,

I do not care if the man on my right or left is a Marine reservist a national gaurd member or Kentucky militia as long as they are wearing the American flag patch.

When I made my original post on this thread, it was in response to the title of the thread and was merely an observation. Mr. Catt made a personal attack on me - not my opinion - and called me a fool. He did not say my OPINION was foolish, but that I was a fool. Then he tried to justify it.

My comment was this:

"'Professionals' are, to me, those of us who volunteered and became members of the REGULAR component of the Navy, Marine Corps, Army, Air Force or Coast Guard. The 'weekend warriors' are those who have made a commitment to the RESERVE components and the MILITIA (defined in 10 U.S.C., Section 311 as the National Guard). This is an important point to be made because we 'professionals' spent our time, 24/7/365 preparing for deployment, training for deployment and deploying according to the "Needs of the service"."

Plus, if you will notice I said "to me", meaning a certain perspective.

I stand by my statement and ask this: before you were called up, was your every moment consumed by the military service, or were you occupied in some other form or fashion with which to make a living? My comment was to pose the question as to whether the reservists and guardsmen called up and federalized (since the guard had not been federalized since WWII, how could they possibly have expected this to be any different, unless there was some insight that the rest of us missed?) view the war in the same light as those who do this as a profession when not in a crisis. I think it is a fair question. With so many troops speaking out against the administration on the war policy, and knowing from my experience it would result in at least Captain's mast (article 15 or office hours) and even GCM, I think it is damned fair to evaluate the situation from that viewpoint and determine why those troops are speaking out in that manner. Is it because they are the (my words) 'weedend warrior' or are they regulars and feel some other deep-felt disdain?

Mr. Catt chose not to look at the issue by my words. I have had others who agreed with me on point and I do not change my words.

Linedoggie, I empathize with you on your deployment and I respect the work you have done thus far. You have done more recently what others, myself included, have done before in decades previous, and not as a result, necessarily, of a national emergency. Now I wish to ask you, sir, what your view of reservists and guardsmen was when you were with the regular component back in the day. It is a reasonable question that nobody seems willing to answer for some reason. Did you feel the same way then as you do now? Or did you see our reserve brothers and sisters as "temporary help" as you put it just now?

By the way, if you want to put it into month terms, my tour as active duty regular was 168 months, since you brought up the 46 months AD since 9/11.

Finally, Tomcatt, I do not base my experience on only 7 reservists. There were more than 7 assigned to our command, more like 150. That is a pretty sizable number. After the initial enthusiasm wore off and the prospect of goint to a full ground assault came to view, the whining began; some with the regulars, but far greater among the reservists.

For those of you who feel the term 'Weekend Warrior' is an insult, you need to check out the following http's:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=42992
(Read the title)

http://www.quartermaster.army.mil/OQMG/Professional_Bul...umn/reservmobil.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3065/is_n12_v19/ai_9106632

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1996/vp960506/05060040.htm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,971114,00.html

And finally, from Military.Com itself, check out the very first sentence

http://www.military.com/Recruiting/Content/0,13898,rec_...ard_reserve,,00.html

You can see from these articles that some reservists and guardsmen actually take pride in the title "weekend warrior".

Regarding the "professional soldier":

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/au-24/baucom.pdf

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3723/is_200602/ai_n17187111

(In the previous article, the author viewed the increasing reliance of the Army on reservists as a hindrance to the developing "professional" atmosphere of the Army.)

As you can see, I am not alone in my evaluation. So I urge you to educate me, without being hateful and hostile and tell me why I am wrong, dogmatically and philosophically.

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:

quote:

Originally posted by comingofage:
.

You can only speak for yourself. You weren't there. You have no idea. It's sadly pathetic hearing you tell a combat vet about his war and the effects thereof.

My niece died in a chopper crash in Karbala 14 months ago. You damned sure don't speak for her. My younger brothers have 6 tours between them with the 101st and 10th MTN. You don't speak for them either.

I'm very sorry for the loss of your niece, I thank your brothers for there service, and yours too.

I understand that I don't speak for you or your family. I never said I did. I speak for myself and my family. As far as my conversation with Doc, I was refering to what he had said about the Iraq war. He was explaining something that in the end, he said would take 10 to 15 years after the war was over. I was under the impression he was saying it in the present.

I would never say anything about what a combat vet has gone through nor would I try and tell him or her that something did or didn't happen to them. I can only say what happened to my family.

I apologize if you thought I was insulting the Doc, but it was a conversation between he and I and I believe we did well with our differences.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
For those of you who feel the term 'Weekend Warrior' is an insult, you need to check out the following http's:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=42992
(Read the title)

http://www.quartermaster.army.mil/OQMG/Professional_Bul...umn/reservmobil.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3065/is_n12_v19/ai_9106632

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1996/vp960506/05060040.htm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,971114,00.html

And finally, from Military.Com itself, check out the very first sentence

http://www.military.com/Recruiting/Content/0,13898,rec_...ard_reserve,,00.html

You can see from these articles that some reservists and guardsmen actually take pride in the title "weekend warrior".

Regarding the "professional soldier":

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/au-24/baucom.pdf

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3723/is_200602/ai_n17187111

(In the previous article, the author viewed the increasing reliance of the Army on reservists as a hindrance to the developing "professional" atmosphere of the Army.)

As you can see, I am not alone in my evaluation. So I urge you to educate me, without being hateful and hostile and tell me why I am wrong, dogmatically and philosophically.

I think You should read beyond the title and actually read those articles. All but one of the first group state that the term weekend warrior is no longer applicable. The other is only discussing what one employer did to help his mobilzed employees

For your Mil.com page, it does not say anywhere there that they like being called that. If you are saying Mil.com is owned by military members, you are wrong, it is a civilian company owned by Monster.com

For your last two articles, the first does not discuss RF vs AD at all. The second only mentions Reserve officers once

quote:

The maintenance of large armed forces and the preponderance of temporary officers and career reserve officers have also worked against the formation of a homogeneous group imbued with the professional spirit.

The main clause of the sentence is about the homogeneous group. You will rarely hear a Reservist or Guardman refer to themselves as a weekend warrior, that is more commonly used by AD and civilians.

I ask you the same thing: is English your first language, because you have trouble grasping the concepts involved with the language. Or are you redacting the articles to remove the term weekend warrior.

I really think you are going out of your way to be unreasonable about this. You do not want to see the point at all. I really think you need to stop posting on here if you are not going to listen to what is being said.

What I said is that I am not alone in my evaluation.

And again with your insults. You refuse to read the posts for what they are and I think I am being overly accommodating to your bull-headedness. The point of the links is to demonstrate to YOU that there are many who think of the reservists and guardsmen as weekend warriors. Your whole diatribe in the beginning was how you felt insulted that I used that term. The military.com article is a recruiting ad. This is what the first line says:

"It's the way of the Weekend Warrior, but it's also much more than that. If you're considering joining the military for the first time, or you're a military veteran looking for additional benefits or further opportunities to serve your country, National Guard and Reserve programs provide flexibility and rewards."

So do you not feel insulted that military.com, the site that you are reading right now used that phrase?

But go on living in your little bubble. I have to wonder why you are so bent on putting down someone who wants to hear from the weekend warrior's perspective, but all you have given is venom and vitriol. That is not, as they say, in keeping with the sense of unit or service cohesiveness. I am being very polite but all you are is hard to get along with. If you can't open your mind, then just don't respond to anymore. You are just not worth trying to please anymore.

Doc Commander - Out. Charlie-Golf-One

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
I ask you the same thing: is English your first language, because you have trouble grasping the concepts involved with the language. Or are you redacting the articles to remove the term weekend warrior. Read them, yes they use the term and then point out it is not longer applicable

I really think you are going out of your way to be unreasonable about this. You do not want to see the point at all. I really think you need to stop posting on here if you are not going to listen to what is being said.
pot meet kettle
What I said is that I am not alone in my evaluation. Ah so if several people come to the same conclusion it must be right. This is what has kept prejudice and bigotry going for so long.

And again with your insults. You refuse to read the posts for what they are and I think I am being overly accommodating to your bull-headedness. The point of the links is to demonstrate to YOU that there are many who think of the reservists and guardsmen as weekend warriors. Your whole diatribe in the beginning was how you felt insulted that I used that term. The military.com article is a recruiting ad. done by a civilian company on a civilian website This is what the first line says:

"It's the way of the Weekend Warrior, but it's also much more than that. If you're considering joining the military for the first time, or you're a military veteran looking for additional benefits or further opportunities to serve your country, National Guard and Reserve programs provide flexibility and rewards."

So do you not feel insulted that military.com, the site that you are reading right now used that phrase? Yes, I do.

But go on living in your little bubble. I have to wonder why you are so bent on putting down someone who wants to hear from the weekend warrior's perspective, you do not want to hear an pespective but your own. You have gotten the perspective of someone who was a professional Soldier in the National Guard. you reject it out of hand. but all you have given is venom and vitriol. That is not, as they say, in keeping with the sense of unit or service cohesiveness. I am being very polite but all you are is hard to get along with. If you can't open your mind, then just don't respond to anymore. You are just not worth trying to please anymore. You won't play by my rules so I am going to take my ball and go home waaaaaa

Doc Commander - Out. Charlie-Golf-One

You're the one calling name, whining, crying and being hard to get along with, so, please do, go.