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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint An article on the surge from the viewpoint of soldiers on the ground|
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Suspended Member, 06 July 2008 PhoenixDark |
Just the sound of crickets chirping. Chickenhawks like Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity know better than to open their fat pie-holes about real warriors. The right wing blogs are ignoring it... because they know the 7 warriors have more credibility than 70,000 talking heads like Jonah Goldberg, Tucker Carlson, Michelle Malkin, Ben Ferguson, Glenn Reynolds, etc... The milblogger, BlackFive, pumped out a huge piece that says that while what the seven 82nd Airborne soldiers experienced may be true for their region, LOTS OF OTHER SOLDIERS EXPERIENCE SOMETHING ELSE and regardless, people have been wrong before and victory is right around the corner and these NCO’s don’t see the big picture. |
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Suspended Member, 06 July 2008 PhoenixDark |
Outlaws says that Prime Minister Maliki is seeking to make peace with the Sunnis. Outlaws says that he's looked into Maliki's eyes and sees a guy who REALLY, TRULY, wants PEACE.
Or maybe it was the president who did that. I don't know. The guys who wrote this article, who are actually on the ground in Iraq, fighting, don't see that. But outlaws is a "military enthusiast" so maybe he knows something they don't. |
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Experienced Member |
better than a has been who will only hold on to one article and ignore the overwhelming amount of information leaning the other way from his agenda
Forget the dog, Beware of Owner |
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Banned by admin |
you know berlin you dont have to be a prick your whole life... take a vacation for awhile...
(A)(E)(N) |
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Lead Moderator Post War Iraq  Hot Topics Moderator mainedawg72gmail.com   |
Not yet Jake. The meeting on it was last night. I don't even know if they will tell me anything until it is completely checked out. This isn't some small blog that a A PVT wrote. If this artical was written by the men named there it is a big deal. It has it's own life now and must go thru the chain of command. Most people want to know more about the men and the artical. If anyone has a new link to any more information on it, please let me know. |
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Member |
Dawg, thank you for keeping up with this thing. We appriciate you very much for doing this. Especially because I know you're not feeling well.
For some reason, I just feel these soldiers words were spun and taken to a level that I can't believe they intended them to be. But I could be wrong. I know things aren't "peachy keen" over there. I kinda got a first hand line of info on the subject. And I realize that this is from 7 men, not 100,000. It's just chewing at me to find out everything I can about this and these men. And trust me, not because I want to "denounce" these men's words. I just can't imagine what would have possessed them to write this without thinking of what it would do to the morale of the men and women under their command. I've been trying to find out anything about these men and the guy on the top of the article, Paul Hoppe, but there's nothing! All I keep finding is left wing sites are just running this thing like it's the only thing going on in Iraq. Anyway.... Thanks again, looking foreward to any information you get. |
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Suspended Member, 06 July 2008 PhoenixDark |
Coming say:
Those 6 NCOs and 1 SPC are all infantry soldiers who've been fighting in Iraq for the last 15 months. If you would read the article, they explain they wrote their piece because: As responsible infantrymen and noncommissioned officers with the 82nd Airborne Division soon heading back home, we are skeptical of recent press coverage portraying the conflict as increasingly manageable and feel it has neglected the mounting civil, political and social unrest we see every day. You need to quit pretending you speak for the men under their command. I think the men under their command are damn proud of their NCOs for putting the truth out where America can read it. |
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Member |
Well, dah! First, you don't know when they wrote this, it says Published: August 19, 2007 Baghdad. So there's a date on it. Does that mean it was written on that date? NO, it doesn't. You don't even know how long or if they've returned back to the states yet. I know that because I can't find anything other than the article. Of which, for your information, I've read about 5 times now. Here's the deal dork... You need to quit squaking for them.. The only reason you're fighting this so damn hard is not because you give a **** for "them". It just fits your agenda. And you know it. You may think your pretty good at this liberal talking point, change the subject bullshit but you're no better than any other liberal loser. It's all about how you can put it to "your" advantage. Not the country or the men and women fighting this ****ing war. So shut the **** up and keep your opinions about me to yourself. You know nothing about how I think, how I see things and you damn sure can't walk in my shoes. Now I'm not gonna answer your bullshit anymore on this thread. And quit dragging it onto other threads. You're being disruptive and you sound like a fool. I'm going to wait for Mainedawg to find out something and I'm going to continue to search for myself. I suggest you either do the same or move on to some topic about how horrible the United States is. Or maybe something about Bush. I really don't give a ****. Better yet, why don't you just get stoned or something. Dork.  |
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Suspended Member, 06 July 2008 PhoenixDark |
I'm not the loser who said these fighting men are spouting "a lot of anti-war talking points" or that their article was "edited by Michael Moore types". I'm not the armchair general who's claiming that they're "undermining the morale of the men under their command". And I'm not the tap dancer who's trying to smear these soldiers and refuses to admit it. I have total respect for these fighting men and will never take anything away from what they do for me and this country. Why don't you respect them? Man up and admit you said some stupid stuff! |
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Doc Ski |
********************************************* You should have been born a decade or so earlier and had a tour in ICorps. None of this would be a mystery to you. Many get fed up. Many think things are screwed. Some speak out. We are only seeing a small tip here with this war. In VN many came back and took to the streets. They felt they owed it to those still there or soon to go there. Many guys in the thick of things see things completely different than those of us remf's sitting in the cheap seats. . |
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New Member |
We all know reality has a liberal bias.
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Experienced Member |
Well you may understand butterbars, but you do not understand NCOs. I find it hilarious that in one sentence you bash him for speaking for the men of the command, but then in the very next sentence you do the exact same thing. Typical Forget the dog, Beware of Owner |
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Member |
********************************************* You should have been born a decade or so earlier and had a tour in ICorps. None of this would be a mystery to you. It's not a mystery to me. I'm aware of troops speaking out. It's the timing and them being SNCO's. Many get fed up. Many think things are screwed. Some speak out. We are only seeing a small tip here with this war. Who are you to say this is just the tip? You don't know. If it was the "tip", there'd be a bunch more due to the fact the war has gone on for 6 years now. In VN many came back and took to the streets. They felt they owed it to those still there or soon to go there. Yes they did. And the way I see it, they sold out there brothers. Do you want that to happen again? Why would anybody want what people like Kerry did to the Vietnam Vets to happen again? Many guys in the thick of things see things completely different than those of us remf's sitting in the cheap seats. I understand. I have nothing but respect for their opinions. If you'd read what I've written on all of my posts, I believe you'll see that I do understand. I'm just afraid of what there words have done to the men and women under them. And what it does to this country. And (believe it or not) what it's going to do to there lives. They're going to get older and I have a feeling (if these are there actual words) they're going to regret saying them. I feel sorry for them. That doesn't mean I don't have respect for them. AND IT DAMN SURE DOESN'T MEAN I THINK THEY'RE LIARS On another note: Just wanted to say that we may not see eye to eye on most everything but from a former Marine to a Doc, thank you for your service. I got a lot of respect for you and your kind.  |
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Doc Ski |
I was comparing Iraq with VN. Maybe not clearly enough. I was making no judgement on how deep this sort of thing will go for this war and the troops over there. I assume that we will have a clearer picture as concerns Iraq in 10-15 years. For many it takes time to process. As far as the timing. For these NCO's or the guys that came back and took to the streets during my war. If you think the dead are being well spent then you should say positive things. If you think the dead are not being well spent then you have two choices. You can speak up while they are still being killed. Or you can speak up after the killing has stopped. Not taking to the streets, right after I came back to CONUS, is a blot on my honor. I knew better. But I held my tongue. Brothers were dying and I sat quiet. There is no honor in that. That is not what supporting the troops is all about. . |
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Doc Ski |
Based on my time I can't think of anything I would worry about less. At no time did we give a rats behind what was going on back home as far as the war. We did not care about the protests. We did not care about the "we love you troops" letters we might randomly get. (unless...unless they sent something to eat....then we cared) Now I fought with well trained professional. Warriors in fact. And that goes for the biggest anti-war soon to be protestor we had in the Unit. Being anti-VN war had nothing to do with the way they or we did our job. I think what these NCO's did was healthy. I totally support what they did. And I have no fear it will adversly effect the troops in the field. Believe me the troops have alrady figured out where they stand on this war. The ones who have been there a time or two certainly have. And believe me on another thing. I hang and read on a USMC Forum (a real one) I think I can honestly say that the flag waving support, from the guys who have made a trip or three over, for this war or the conduct thereof, is about as hard to find as a young 22 year old in my bed. . |
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Member |
We have completely different ideas on this. I'm old enough to remember the "love ins" and the protests against the war.. I saw my father and uncle suffer for them. Speaking out about a war that IS justified is fundamentally wrong. And there is no honor in that. And I will continue to speak for the men and women who have died and are fighting now and who'll be fighting after I'm dead and gone. To me doing what the liberals and anti-war crowd did to the soldiers was horrible. And I'll go kicking and screaming to stop them from doing it again. |
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Member |
Doc... With all due respect, we are gonna have to agree to disagree on the way you think. But I still have respect for your service. Thanks again.
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Member |
I like how you used the term "justified". You must be one of the vastly shrinking and soon to be extinct people that still feel this war is justified. That explains the direction of your posts. And is war ever really justified? The only way I would consider one justified would be if there were no profit in it. That eliminates this one for sure. |
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Member |
And your opinion of the war is it isn't justified. Right? Well you have your opinion and I have mine. I just happen to be in the majority. You have got your talking points and your left wing garbage down really well. You'll spin the truth, throw out crap that makes our soldiers think they're doing something wrong.. And then you "justify" your actions by saying it's Bush's fault. That's really tough...really tough.
 By the way; Why am I going to be extinct? I believe you got wires crossed.  |
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Doc Ski |
The war and the 60's and the turmoil all ran together. For those that fought and those that did not. Anyone telling me that someone came back to CONUS in good shape but fell apart or suffered greatly because of "love-ins"? I don't believe that for a moment. Complete and total BS. It was the war. It was the VC. It was the WIA's. It was the NVA. It was the 58,000+ KIA's. It was not the "love-ins". I find that observation to be simplistic and unbeliveable. Don't take this wrong. But I think you might have found your views slightly altered if you had actually fought one of these wars. Most door kicking or hot LZ landing BTDT guys that I know do not sound like you. Not all. Most. . |
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Experienced Member |
You seem to think Iraq is unjustified. Was vietnam justified or not? Was WWII justified or not? Between Vietnam and WWII, which had the highest percentage of draftees vs volunteers? Forget the dog, Beware of Owner |
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Suspended Member, 06 July 2008 PhoenixDark |
coming says:
coming wants to know:
After he talks a buncha crap about our soldiers in the field, Coming pretends that that was someone else and wraps hisself in the flag coming says:
Man up and admit you said some stupid horsecrap about our soldiers in Iraq! Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean you get a pass when you try to smear them.   |
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Experienced Member |
Just man up and admit you lied about what he said and have been repeating that lie in any thread you can possibly use it in?
Forget the dog, Beware of Owner |
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Suspended Member, 06 July 2008 PhoenixDark |
Yup. I sure have. And Coming has been running away as fast as his little tap-dancing shoes will let him. |
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Banned by admin |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Soldiers: Dissent on the Front
Newsweek Sept. 3, 2007 issue - Are there consequences for soldiers who write publicly, and prominently, against the war? Eight are finding out. "We have failed on every promise," wrote seven 82nd Airborne paratroopers in a stark dispatch from Baghdad that was the lead Sunday op-ed in The New York Times Aug. 19. Superiors at Fort Bragg were surprised—but not professors at Marquette, where Sp. Buddhika Jayamaha, whose name led the op-ed, had studied. One, Barrett McCormick, said he e-mailed with "BJ" recently. "He was very curious about what was going to happen," he says. "No one knows what the repercussions will be." There may not be any. Army policies permit soldiers to write or blog as long as they don't compromise operational security (e.g., troop locations) or challenge civilian leadership. "Until it is established that they violated any regulations, they will not be punished just for their views," said Army spokesman Maj. Tom Earnhardt. The future is murkier for Pvt. Scott Beauchamp, whose shocking tales in The New Republic—including a soldier wearing a fragment of a child's skull—were disputed by bloggers, notably at The Weekly Standard. The influential magazine, which in 1998 was hurt badly by a writer's serial fabrications, said in two editor's notes it had re-reported Beauchamp's work and stood by it, except for one error: one anecdote took place in Kuwait, not Iraq. But the editors have had no contact with Beauchamp in weeks, and efforts to corroborate his work have stalled. His wife, Elspeth Reeve, a fact-checker at the magazine, said his cell phone and laptop had been confiscated; that he is permitted to speak only to her, his mother and a lawyer, and that some calls are supervised. But the Army said Beauchamp has no restrictions on his communications. (Attempts to reach him were unsuccessful.) The New Republic is waiting to talk to Beauchamp, leaving its critics unchallenged. "It's maddening," says editor Franklin Foer. How long can an editor ask readers to wait? "It's important to try to be thorough ... If it takes time, there's nothing we can do about it." Army spokesman Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl said its inquiry is ongoing at the unit level. Beauchamp can't be punished for his views, but he faces the possibility of an administrative, or noncriminal, charge if the Army determines he lied in his writings. Neocons....always willing to fight to the last drop of someone else's blood. |
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Member |
You're wrong Doc. My uncle told me that the toughest battle he faced was the one when he stepped off the plane in Calif. and was called a murderer, baby killer, and a crimminal. These were the people who he was fighting for. He said he had the same feeling as when he hears in todays news that a mother has killed her own child. I don't know what you feel but that about knocks the air out of me. Now we have Reid, Pelosi, Mertha and a bunch more politicians spewing this crap! WTF don't you understand about this? My nephew (SNCO, 101st) gets pissed more at the left, the polticians, and anti-war crowd than he does the ****ing terrorists.. You know why??? BECAUSE HE CAN'T KILL THE BASTARDS. The "country" needs to stand behind these brave souls fighting this battle. You think it's tough now, wait till this damn thing gets as big as our enemies want it to be. A love in and protest will become a slaughter fest. Then I wonder who's gonna be crying for whom then. |
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Doc Ski |
You know I know lots of vets from that war first hand. And I have yet to run into one I know or served with that told me of this baby killer, spitting, pizz being thrown on them when they stepped off the planes actually happening.
OK a couple got drunk and went looking for trouble. But that does not count. Sure I read it all the time on the internet. And I believe that at times it may have even happened. But I think its a lot like: 1. the water buffalo that was shot by some Pfc for sport 2. the ear collector 3. They put a price on our head we were so bad 4. the fraggings And many others stories everyone now takes for their own but few seem to have actually seen in real time. I know to many guys that came back from VN in the 60's, went to universities, wore their field jackets, answered or asked questions in class from the perspective of vets.....and "never once" had what some of you seem to think happened all the time happen to them. Not once. Hell one of these guys I mention went thru the U of California at the height of the anti-war movement wearing his field jacket much of the time and he never once saw this. And in 4 years of college, never once hiding my BTDT vet status, I never once had anything remotely close happen to me. Questions about the war? Yes. But that is the entire extent of it. Questions about the war. Believe those old stories all you want. I do not. But what the heck. I only lived thru it. I know I know all these war stories are true. And some actually happened. But in this case ..... . |
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Member |
Sir, we will have to agree to disagree on this. I believe you are, and/or were a long haired, loud mouthed, disrespectful SOB. And I also know, had I fought beside you, you would have walked through the gates of hell to save my a$$ had I gotten wounded. All Marines will, for always be indebted to the "Doc". Thanks again for your service. |
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