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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint Someone please explain kitman and taqqiyah to me.|
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It's OK to be a little paranoid. Someone somewhere is out to get you. |
Someone please explain kitman and taqqiyah to me.
Is it true that some divisions of Islam say it’s perfectly all right for Muslims to lie under certain circumstances? If so, what conditions permit lying? Is the teaching the same in all variations of Islam? Are Muslims allowed to lie only to non-Muslims, or is lying to other Muslims permitted? |
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I'd rather be knitting. |
Taqiya is a Shi'a doctrine allowing someone to lie , including about their faith, when they or someone else is in direct or imminent danger, and lying would save their skin. So if you pointed a loaded gun to DH's head, and said "I'm going to kill all Muslims. Are you Muslim?" DH, or myself would be permitted to lie in order to save DH. Sunnis are permitted to use it, as well. But imminent and direct danger, as well as the lie being required to protect someone, are required for taqiya to be permitted. Taqiya can be used on anyone posing this direct threat.
Kitman is an Arabic word for concealment. Some forms of kitman are permissible (I can conceal a surprise from DH, decline to tell you my weight, etc.), and some are not- lying, hoarding, declining to share useful knowledge that would not lead to harm. For instance, I am required to share this knowledge with you- to refuse to do so would not be permitted. The location of DH at the moment, however, I could conceal, for it would put him and his shipmates at risk. |
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I'd rather be knitting. |
If you'd rather not believe it, that's up to you. But as you've not threatened me with death for telling the truth, and I've given you an answer, I'm not permitted to lie. If I didn't want to give an answer that was accurate to the best of my knowledge, my only option would have been not to post. |
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Think... Before You Post...  FIVE TIGERS |
sweetsuds so kitman and taqqiyah would be permissible if a person believed it would benefit Ialsm and would hinder their possion if the truth were known?
"Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps 127:1)  |
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On Warning 20 Days 08/29/08 Fin "Lakum deenukum waliya deen" To you be your Way, and to me mine (109:6)  |
Dear sister, I believe these to be made up doctrines with zero basis in the Qur'an. Please show me the verses where this is permitted.
2:177 True piety does not consist in turning your faces towards the east or the west but truly pious is he who believes in God, and the Last Day; and the angels, and revelation, and the prophets; and spends his substance - however much he himself may cherish - it - upon his near of kin, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and the beggars, and for the freeing of human beings from bondage; and is constant in prayer, and renders the purifying dues; and truly pious are they who keep their promises whenever they promise, and are patient in misfortune and hardship and in time of peril: it is they that have proved themselves true, and it is they, they who are conscious of God. To me, the last part of that ayah means that I must always be truthful no matter what. |
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Think... Before You Post... FIVE TIGERS |
What about this...
Kitman: Kitman is close to Taqqiya (see it) but rather than outright dissimulation, it consists in telling only a part of the truth, with “mental reservation” justifying the omission of the rest. One example may suffice. When a Moslem maintains that “jihad” really means “a spiritual struggle” and fails to add that this definition is a recent one in Islam (little more than a century old), he misleads by holding back, and is practicing “kitman.” Another example would be the insistence of a Moslem apologist that, “of course”, there is freedom of conscience in Islam and then quoting that Qur’anic verse -“There shall be no compulsion in religion.” But the impression given will be false, for there has been no mention of the Moslem doctrine of abrogation, or naskh. Taqiyya (taqqiya): Dissimulation as sanctified hypocrisy. It is considered a part of Islamic strategy to lie and deceive unbelievers by any means. Thus exercising taqqiyah is very pious behavior. Veiling the truth: Adjustment, deception up to the open lie. -Taqqiya is attached, if it is helpful to the well-being of the religion -Islam (Khomeini). Sunnis will deceptively say that this goes only for s hi ites Glossary of Islamic Terms http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Main_Page "Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps 127:1) |
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Experienced Member |
Now that's odd, I don't need links to the Koran, I have my own copy. Mohammad specifically demands that treaties with non believers be faithfully observed, and that anyone who negotiates in good faith, should have good faith returned. Dave |
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Think... Before You Post... FIVE TIGERS |
This helps the non-Muslim to understand his Muslim neighbor better... Glossary of Islamic Terms http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Main_Page "Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps 127:1) |
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Experienced Member |
You ARE aware that Wiki-Islam is just a hate site, trading off the name "Wiki" to make believe they are objective? Now I read through the definitions posted. I have NO idea what religion their talking about but it sure isn't Islam. Do yourself a favor, and if your interested in being a expert on Islam, so that you can debunk it - At least ACTUALLY READ the Koran, so you will be on the same page as the real world. Better men than you or I debunk Islam, but they at least know what their talking about. Dave |
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Think... Before You Post... FIVE TIGERS |
debunk...  why would anyone need to "debunk" Islam...the proof is found in hundreds of clips...I have read enough of the Quran to know what I need to know...when I have questions I ask Salaam, Suds and other Muslims in the Forum...plus a few ex-muslims...carry on Dave"Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps 127:1) |
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I'd rather be knitting. |
There are legal maxims that coercion exempts one from punishment, and that extreme need can exempt one from most prohibitions. I'll need to look up where they were first established, but remember that fiqh isn't just a strict interpretation of positive Qur'anic command. There are about a dozen sources of fiqh, Qur'an being first, but not the sole source. P.S. I just realized that most of my reference books are still on the other side of the country. I believe that Imam Feisal talks about this in "Islam: A Sacred Law", Dr. Khaled in "And God Knows the Soldiers: The Authoritative and Authoritarian in Islamic Law" and Wael Hallaq also, but I can't remember exactly which ***le at the moment. And the aya you quoted directly discusses a trust or agreement. That need not exclude the cir***stances that taqiyah permits, nor does it require that you disclose any information requested, regardless of the harm done by disclosure. This message has been edited. Last edited by: sweetsuds, |
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Hot Topics Moderator  |
So, a lie of convenience, as long as it only lies to protect those interested faith parties, is an acceptable practice? Helluva faith you have there. "I can lie when it benefits me, but otherwise lying is wrong. Oh, and I don't believe in my faith enough to die for it. It's just, ya know, one of those false faiths that we adhere to out of a sense of... ummm... give me a few, I'll get back to you on that one." |
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I'd rather be knitting. |
Uh, no. Read what I wrote, not what you're kind of hoping I'll say. |
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Hot Topics Moderator |
What part of that am I confused on? |
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"Scholarly Comedian" |
It's curious that taqqiyah would be shrugged off as a Shi'ite doctrine, as though it was of no particular use to the Sunnis. That right there stikes me as a bit of Sunni taqqiyah. Or possibly kitman.
Let's keep in mind that Islam developed among Arab tribes that constantly raided and plundered one another--concepts such as deception and concealment would have been second nature and would unavoidably bleed into the new religion. And when you consider that the Sunni-Shi'ite split is essentially a centuries-old succession fight for a lost empire Sunni claims that taqqiyah is something Shi'ite are about as threadbare as Mohammed's "flying rug" and equally believable.... |
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I'd rather be knitting. |
Who said that taqiyah was of no particular use to Sunnis? Or even just to Muslims? It's based on legal maxims that are present in most systems. |
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"Scholarly Comedian" |
Initially you did, but I'll note that in the same post you corrected yourself. In any case my point really isn't theological/legal but historical--and that means one would look not necessarily to the Quran but to the Hadith and the Sira. And those tend to make my point--that kind of sanctioned deception does seem to be an Arab thing. Other cultures practice deception, but at the same time they do not enshrine it into their religions.... |
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I'd rather be knitting. |
OK, maybe I was unclear. The articulation of taqiyah as a distinct idea is credited to a Shi'a scholar. Shi'a and Sunni scholars influence one another more than some would like to admit, so the Sunni borrowing is quite normal. And the legal maxims I mentioned are indeed part of Christian canon and halacha- I don't know about other religious legal systems. |
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Hot Topics Moderator |
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