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Picture of GunnyRet03
Posted
Ouch!
'http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/09/09/healthcare/print.html'
quote:
What a difference a month makes! When my last controversial column posted on Salon in the second week of August, most Democrats seemed frozen in suspended animation, not daring to criticize the Obama administration's bungling of healthcare reform lest it give aid and comfort to the GOP. Well, that ice dam sure broke with a roar. Dissident Democrats found their voices, and by late August even the liberal lemmings of the mainstream media, from CBS to CNN, had drastically altered their tone of reportage, from priggish disdain of the town hall insurgency to frank admission of serious problems in the healthcare bills as well as of Obama's declining national support.

But this tonic dose of truth-telling may be too little too late. As an Obama supporter and contributor, I am outraged at the slowness with which the standing army of Democratic consultants and commentators publicly expressed discontent with the administration's strategic missteps this year. I suspect there had been private grumbling all along, but the media warhorses failed to speak out when they should have -- from week one after the inauguration, when Obama went flat as a rug in letting Congress pass that obscenely bloated stimulus package. Had more Democrats protested, the administration would have felt less arrogantly emboldened to jam through a cap-and-trade bill whose costs have made it virtually impossible for an alarmed public to accept the gargantuan expenses of national healthcare reform. (Who is naive enough to believe that Obama's plan would be deficit-neutral? Or that major cuts could be achieved without drastic rationing?)

By foolishly trying to reduce all objections to healthcare reform to the malevolence of obstructionist Republicans, Democrats have managed to destroy the national coalition that elected Obama and that is unlikely to be repaired. If Obama fails to win reelection, let the blame be first laid at the door of Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, who at a pivotal point threw gasoline on the flames by comparing angry American citizens to Nazis. It is theoretically possible that Obama could turn the situation around with a strong speech on healthcare to Congress this week, but after a summer of grisly hemorrhaging, too much damage has been done. At this point, Democrats' main hope for the 2012 presidential election is that Republicans nominate another hopelessly feeble candidate. Given the GOP's facility for shooting itself in the foot, that may well happen.

This column has been calling for heads to roll at the White House from the get-go. Thankfully, they do seem to be falling faster -- as witness the middle-of-the-night bum's rush given to "green jobs" czar Van Jones last week -- but there's a long way to go. An example of the provincial amateurism of current White House operations was the way the president's innocuous back-to-school pep talk got sandbagged by imbecilic support materials soliciting students to write fantasy letters to "help" the president (a coercive directive quickly withdrawn under pressure). Even worse, the entire project was stupidly scheduled to conflict with the busy opening days of class this week, when harried teachers already have their hands full. Comically, some major school districts, including New York City, were not even open yet. And this is the gang who wants to revamp national healthcare?

Why did it take so long for Democrats to realize that this year's tea party and town hall uprisings were a genuine barometer of widespread public discontent and not simply a staged scenario by kooks and conspirators? First of all, too many political analysts still think that network and cable TV chat shows are the central forums of national debate. But the truly transformative political energy is coming from talk radio and the Web -- both of which Democrat-sponsored proposals have threatened to stifle, in defiance of freedom of speech guarantees in the Bill of Rights. I rarely watch TV anymore except for cooking shows, history and science documentaries, old movies and football. Hence I was blissfully free from the retching overkill that followed the deaths of Michael Jackson and Ted Kennedy -- I never saw a single minute of any of it. It was on talk radio, which I have resumed monitoring around the clock because of the healthcare fiasco, that I heard the passionate voices of callers coming directly from the town hall meetings. Hence I was alerted to the depth and intensity of national sentiment long before others who were simply watching staged, manipulated TV shows.

Why has the Democratic Party become so arrogantly detached from ordinary Americans? Though they claim to speak for the poor and dispossessed, Democrats have increasingly become the party of an upper-middle-class professional elite, top-heavy with journalists, academics and lawyers (one reason for the hypocritical absence of tort reform in the healthcare bills). Weirdly, given their worship of highly individualistic, secularized self-actualization, such professionals are as a whole amazingly credulous these days about big-government solutions to every social problem. They see no danger in expanding government authority and intrusive, wasteful bureaucracy. This is, I submit, a stunning turn away from the anti-authority and anti-establishment principles of authentic 1960s leftism.

How has "liberty" become the inspirational code word of conservatives rather than liberals? (A prominent example is radio host Mark Levin's book "Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto," which was No. 1 on the New York Times bestseller list for nearly three months without receiving major reviews, including in the Times.) I always thought that the Democratic Party is the freedom party -- but I must be living in the nostalgic past. <edit>

But affluent middle-class Democrats now seem to be complacently servile toward authority and automatically believe everything party leaders tell them. Why? Is it because the new professional class is a glossy product of generically institutionalized learning? Independent thought and logical analysis of argument are no longer taught. Elite education in the U.S. has become a frenetic assembly line of competitive college application to schools where ideological brainwashing is so pandemic that it's invisible. The top schools, from the Ivy League on down, promote "critical thinking," which sounds good but is in fact just a style of rote regurgitation of hackneyed approved terms ("racism, sexism, homophobia") when confronted with any social issue. The Democratic brain has been marinating so long in those clichés that it's positively pickled.

Throughout this fractious summer, I was dismayed not just at the self-defeating silence of Democrats at the gaping holes or evasions in the healthcare bills but also at the fogginess or insipidity of articles and Op-Eds about the controversy emanating from liberal mainstream media and Web sources. By a proportion of something like 10-to-1, negative articles by conservatives were vastly more detailed, specific and practical about the proposals than were supportive articles by Democrats, which often made gestures rather than arguments and brimmed with emotion and sneers. There was a glaring inability in most Democratic commentary to think ahead and forecast what would or could be the actual snarled consequences -- in terms of delays, denial of services, errors, miscommunications and gross invasions of privacy -- of a massive single-payer overhaul of the healthcare system in a nation as large and populous as ours. It was as if Democrats live in a utopian dream world, divorced from the daily demands and realities of organization and management.
 
Posts: 18362 | Registered: Fri 05 September 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/09/09/healthcare/print.htm


What a maroon!

 
Posts: 5848 | Registered: Wed 09 October 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I thought the article was spot on. Even more fair to the Democrats then they deserve. Perhaps because the author is a Democrat?

Thud, you can do better then a cut/paste job.


Todays politics remind me of an old saying. - "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" - Joseph Stalin
 
Posts: 8083 | Registered: Sat 03 March 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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The author (drumroll)...

... is correct in my opinion. This administration has turned out to be a real turd, not to mention the complete lack of abilities of the Democratically controlled congress.

I am drawn to his summation in the last paragraph and am equally dismayed that the Democrats went into this thing so unprepared to rebut the conservative points that were so obviously coming. I'm a big supporter of a UHC system for this country. I'm fairly confident that this administration just set back the cause by another 15 to 20 years.


 
Posts: 6107 | Registered: Fri 06 May 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Originally posted by L0A1:
I thought the article was spot on. Even more fair to the Democrats then they deserve. Perhaps because the author is a Democrat?

Thud, you can do better then a cut/paste job.


A cut/paste deserves a cut/paste. Democrat you say? Evidence exists that she is actually on the payroll of the infamous Glenn Beck. The fact that I don't have that evidence is not a factor.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Thud357L:
quote:
Originally posted by L0A1:
I thought the article was spot on. Even more fair to the Democrats then they deserve. Perhaps because the author is a Democrat?

Thud, you can do better then a cut/paste job.


A cut/paste deserves a cut/paste. Democrat you say? Evidence exists that she is actually on the payroll of the infamous Glenn Beck. The fact that I don't have that evidence is not a factor.


I never said she was a Democrat, I asked if she was. Since I don't listen to Beck, I wouldn't know.


Todays politics remind me of an old saying. - "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" - Joseph Stalin
 
Posts: 8083 | Registered: Sat 03 March 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by The_Bonesaw:
The author (drumroll)...

... is correct in my opinion. This administration has turned out to be a real turd, not to mention the complete lack of abilities of the Democratically controlled congress.

I am drawn to his summation in the last paragraph and am equally dismayed that the Democrats went into this thing so unprepared to rebut the conservative points that were so obviously coming. I'm a big supporter of a UHC system for this country. I'm fairly confident that this administration just set back the cause by another 15 to 20 years.




Concur. Your comments are Spot On
 
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Thu 05 December 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Why did it take so long for Democrats to realize that this year's tea party and town hall uprisings were a genuine barometer of widespread public discontent and not simply a staged scenario by kooks and conspirators?


HAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
Posts: 3053 | Registered: Mon 06 August 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by L0A1:
quote:
Originally posted by Thud357L:
quote:
Originally posted by L0A1:
I thought the article was spot on. Even more fair to the Democrats then they deserve. Perhaps because the author is a Democrat?

Thud, you can do better then a cut/paste job.


A cut/paste deserves a cut/paste. Democrat you say? Evidence exists that she is actually on the payroll of the infamous Glenn Beck. The fact that I don't have that evidence is not a factor.


I never said she was a Democrat, I asked if she was. Since I don't listen to Beck, I wouldn't know.


Aww, she's probably really not on his payroll. But if she was do you expect either of them to admit it?

Get your head in the game LOA1! We're talking Smear 101 here. I can say anything more preposterous than you! Big Grin
 
Posts: 5848 | Registered: Wed 09 October 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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The Dems are out of touch because they actually think they were put in power to push their crap down our throats whether we agree or not, when it was really due to them getting everyone to hate Bush...Can you say out of touch, the polls are clearly showing this, every time the President talks about healthcare the polls show more and more fleeing, yet, he goes to an even bigger stage without changing his failing message thinking things are going to change just because that is what HE wants...Keep it up Mr. President, by the time this healthcare debate is over, the Dems will have no healthcare bill passed and their approval ratings will go to an all time record low! Popcorn
 
Posts: 6973 | Registered: Thu 10 November 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Originally posted by scoutsout1:
The Dems are out of touch because they actually think they were put in power to push their crap down our throats whether we agree or not, when it was really due to them getting everyone to hate Bush...Can you say out of touch, the polls are clearly showing this, every time the President talks about healthcare the polls show more and more fleeing, yet, he goes to an even bigger stage without changing his failing message thinking things are going to change just because that is what HE wants...Keep it up Mr. President, by the time this healthcare debate is over, the Dems will have no healthcare bill passed and their approval ratings will go to an all time record low! Popcorn


Dream on mate. He just gained 10 points. Joe Wilson helped a lot!

>http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/09/poll.obama.speech/index.html
 
Posts: 5848 | Registered: Wed 09 October 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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The Dems are out of touch because they actually think they were put in power to push their crap down our throats whether we agree or not, when it was really due to them getting everyone to hate Bush...


so.....you believe people elected Obama and gave the democrats a majority because the were conned into hating Bush BUT they never wanted Obama and the Democrats to actually do anything?

really? How does that make sense in any way?
 
Posts: 3053 | Registered: Mon 06 August 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Thud, keep on dreaming, his speech was more of the same b.s. with no change and no promise to work in a bipartisan manor (part of what helped him get elected was his promise to reach across the isle which we have yet to see), watch and see, the Dems will have to use the nuclear option if they truly want their forced government run universal healthcare passed, no Republicans are going to support it, and we already know that average Americans do not either...Last I checked when it comes to polling was that 8 in 10 Americans want a BIPARTISAN bill passed...How hard is that to understand??? Cool
 
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Originally posted by karlhungusjr:
quote:
The Dems are out of touch because they actually think they were put in power to push their crap down our throats whether we agree or not, when it was really due to them getting everyone to hate Bush...


so.....you believe people elected Obama and gave the democrats a majority because the were conned into hating Bush BUT they never wanted Obama and the Democrats to actually do anything?

really? How does that make sense in any way?



Name one person who voted for Obama with the dream and desire to lose freedom of choice and have a much larger tax debt to cover all the out of control spending???
 
Posts: 6973 | Registered: Thu 10 November 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Name one person who voted for Obama with the dream and desire to lose freedom of choice and have a much larger tax debt to cover all the out of control spending???


are you capable of asking a straight forward, nonloaded question?

you may as well have asked "when did you stop beating your wife?"
 
Posts: 3053 | Registered: Mon 06 August 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Originally posted by Thud357L:
Evidence exists that she is actually on the payroll of the infamous Glenn Beck. The fact that I don't have that evidence is not a factor.


Too funny Thud, just cause we can't proove you did the crime doesn't mean we're not sending you to jail! Big Grin

She has been described as an "Anti-liberal, liberal". I seriously don't think she would be working with Glen Beck.
 
Posts: 8771 | Registered: Thu 21 September 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Originally posted by karlhungusjr:
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Name one person who voted for Obama with the dream and desire to lose freedom of choice and have a much larger tax debt to cover all the out of control spending???


are you capable of asking a straight forward, nonloaded question?

you may as well have asked "when did you stop beating your wife?"




It is not loaded, it is for real, some are getting what they expected where as for others they see this guy going to the far left something they did not foresee when they voted!
 
Posts: 6973 | Registered: Thu 10 November 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Originally posted by scoutsout1:
Thud, keep on dreaming, his speech was more of the same b.s. with no change and no promise to work in a bipartisan manor (part of what helped him get elected was his promise to reach across the isle which we have yet to see), watch and see, the Dems will have to use the nuclear option if they truly want their forced government run universal healthcare passed, no Republicans are going to support it, and we already know that average Americans do not either...Last I checked when it comes to polling was that 8 in 10 Americans want a BIPARTISAN bill passed...How hard is that to understand??? Cool


When was the last time you looked? It's now down to 7 out of 10 and falling. When Americans say they want a bipartisan bill, they mean they want the Republicans to get their heads out of their asses. As the Repubs continue to use the healthcare bill to try to destroy the Presidency, they continue to define themselves as bankrupt losers and you can't make a deal with bankrupt losers. Republicans tend to talk only to each other and they are not average Americans. If they were, there would be a Republican president, wouldn't there? You are suffering from the usual right wing delusion. You think most people are like you but most people are not.
 
Posts: 5848 | Registered: Wed 09 October 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Originally posted by 67NOV:
quote:
Originally posted by Thud357L:
Evidence exists that she is actually on the payroll of the infamous Glenn Beck. The fact that I don't have that evidence is not a factor.


Too funny Thud, just cause we can't proove you did the crime doesn't mean we're not sending you to jail! Big Grin

She has been described as an "Anti-liberal, liberal". I seriously don't think she would be working with Glen Beck.


Ah, you get it! Cool
 
Posts: 5848 | Registered: Wed 09 October 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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It is not loaded, it is for real


A "real" question would be...

"Name one person who voted for Obama with the dream and desire to have a public healthcare system and increasing taxes to pre 2000 levels to cover all the out of control spending we've had since the republicans lowered taxes yet increased government spending???
 
Posts: 3053 | Registered: Mon 06 August 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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going to the far left something they did not foresee when they voted!


or they're upset he's trying to compramise with the republicans who obviously have no desire to compramise.
 
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Originally posted by karlhungusjr:
quote:
It is not loaded, it is for real


A "real" question would be...

"Name one person who voted for Obama with the dream and desire to have a public healthcare system and increasing taxes to pre 2000 levels to cover all the out of control spending we've had since the republicans lowered taxes yet increased government spending???


Raising taxes won't do it, even if you took 100% from the richest folks in America, it wouldn't cover Obama's health care plan.

Be honest, yes, the Republicans blew a lot of money, but OPbama already out spending them in the first 8 months of his presidency. The American people are seeing it.


Todays politics remind me of an old saying. - "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" - Joseph Stalin
 
Posts: 8083 | Registered: Sat 03 March 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ELLIOTT1980:
quote:
Originally posted by The_Bonesaw:
The author (drumroll)...

... is correct in my opinion. This administration has turned out to be a real turd, not to mention the complete lack of abilities of the Democratically controlled congress.

I am drawn to his summation in the last paragraph and am equally dismayed that the Democrats went into this thing so unprepared to rebut the conservative points that were so obviously coming. I'm a big supporter of a UHC system for this country. I'm fairly confident that this administration just set back the cause by another 15 to 20 years.




Concur. Your comments are Spot On


I would have never pegged you as a supporter of Universal Health Care. My bad. I support it myself.
 
Posts: 4213 | Registered: Wed 20 July 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Thud357L:
quote:
Originally posted by scoutsout1:
Thud, keep on dreaming, his speech was more of the same b.s. with no change and no promise to work in a bipartisan manor (part of what helped him get elected was his promise to reach across the isle which we have yet to see), watch and see, the Dems will have to use the nuclear option if they truly want their forced government run universal healthcare passed, no Republicans are going to support it, and we already know that average Americans do not either...Last I checked when it comes to polling was that 8 in 10 Americans want a BIPARTISAN bill passed...How hard is that to understand??? Cool


When was the last time you looked? It's now down to 7 out of 10 and falling. When Americans say they want a bipartisan bill, they mean they want the Republicans to get their heads out of their asses. As the Repubs continue to use the healthcare bill to try to destroy the Presidency, they continue to define themselves as bankrupt losers and you can't make a deal with bankrupt losers. Republicans tend to talk only to each other and they are not average Americans. If they were, there would be a Republican president, wouldn't there? You are suffering from the usual right wing delusion. You think most people are like you but most people are not.




Look, the public (myself included) has proven that we want reform (polls reflect this fact), like people should not be disqualified due to pre-existing health conditions and such, people would also like to see caps on out of pocket expenses, lowered premium costs, etc., but in no way shape or form does the majority folks desire the Government taking over healtcare completely, so, no matter what poll you look to you can get out of it what you want but that does not mean they (the majority) support the Presidents way only. The Dems have discounted angry Americans as disgruntled Republicans or as angry mobs, but they are truly angry ordinary folks like you and me who fear the government expanding into our personal lives to much, and most people feel the government is to incompetent to run healthcare effectively and efficiently since their track record shows they screw up almost everything they get involved with. The Government is on the verge of bankrupting medicare/medicaid, yet they feel by expanding on it that everything will balance out, yeah, right, they are trying to sell ice to eskimo's and we the people know it!
 
Posts: 6973 | Registered: Thu 10 November 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Raising taxes won't do it, even if you took 100% from the richest folks in America, it wouldn't cover Obama's health care plan.


Only raising taxes? you're right. It wouldn't.

but 1 trillion over 10 years(not every 10 years, just the first 10) is entirly "do-able".

quote:
Be honest, yes, the Republicans blew a lot of money, but OPbama already out spending them in the first 8 months of his presidency. The American people are seeing it.


the difference is Obama is spending to bring us out of a recession. WHILE trying to deal with 2 wars. The republincans did it without a financial crisis.

Its like watching the teenager who wrecked the car complaining about all the money dad is spending to get it repaired.
 
Posts: 3053 | Registered: Mon 06 August 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Originally posted by karlhungusjr:
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going to the far left something they did not foresee when they voted!


or they're upset he's trying to compramise with the republicans who obviously have no desire to compramise.




Take it or leave it when it comes to the public option is in no way shape or form compromise and you know it!
 
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That is just an estimated additional 1 trillion dollar debt to the already humongous debt we have on the books that is growing daily...At some point the spigot will have to be turned off or the well will dry up! Eek
 
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Take it or leave it when it comes to the public option is in no way shape or form compromise and you know it!


but "ZOMG! death panels" AND "OBAMA WANTS TO KILL YOUR GRANDMA!!" IS compromise??

Obamas sinking numbers in this debate IS because the public/his supporters are angry at him. They are angry he ISN'T pushing for the public option more forcefully.

just watch his numbers shoot up if it gets passed, and watch them tank if he doesn't get it passed.
 
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That is just an estimated additional 1 trillion dollar debt to the already humongous debt we have on the books that is growing daily



If i remember correctly the CBO stated it would add 250 billionish to the debt. The 1 trillion is the cost of the program, not the amount it adds to the debt.
 
Posts: 3053 | Registered: Mon 06 August 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Originally posted by karlhungusjr:
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Why did it take so long for Democrats to realize that this year's tea party and town hall uprisings were a genuine barometer of widespread public discontent and not simply a staged scenario by kooks and conspirators?


HAHAHAHAHAHA!


What a distortion of the truth. I agree, the comment by the author is laughable.

I don't think the administration is a "turd" by any means. They were handed over a country in shambles and are desperately trying to save it from ruin and it's working.

I think the administration should have stepped in sooner to combat the lies and more lies about healthcare reform being perpetrated by those on the right that have a quest for ratings and money. Sadly, those lying buffoons have the ability to sway public opinion which in turn, sways how politicians, only interested in their own survival, vote.

It's a damn shame that Republicans sat on their azzes for 6 years when they could have enacted their own healthcare reform. Now we're to believe they have a credible plan and are genuinely interested in reform??? They were more interested in causing huge deficits, creating unemployment, destroying the middle class, ruining our world standing and essentially ruining America.

I say screw the bi-partisan efforts, get the fricken "blue dog" Democrats on board and pass reform with a public option. The Republicans are obstructionist liars that realize they can't win an argument without distorting the facts. That loser maroon from South Carolina needs to be keel hauled for making a mockery of himself and the nation last night.
 
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