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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint IMMIGRATION THEN AND NOW|
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Anything I post on these boards is my opinion only unless accompanied by documented fact. Know that in politics my emotions is with no party. |
Does this sound familiar to anyone? Any O'Reilys or MacIntoshs on the board? Please explain to me the differences in these two cultures and their desire to be Americans. Then please explain how the original Americans are any different from those today not wanting them here yet using them for profit and cheap wages.
Isn't it funny how the circle turns? Then as now the Blacks felt their meager existance was threated by these new immigrants. What goes around comes around it seems. Two hundrend years later and we face the same issue with a different face. http://www.kinsella.org/history/histira.htm Although life in Ireland was cruel, emigrating to America was not a joyful event...it was referred to as the American Wake for these people knew they would never see Ireland again. Those who pursued this path did so only because they knew their future in Ireland would only be more poverty, disease, and English oppression. America became their dream. Early immigrant letters described it as a land of abundance and urged others to follow them through the "Golden Door." These letters were read at social events encouraging the young to join them in this wonderful new country. They left in droves on ships that were so crowded, with conditions so terrible, that they were referred to as Coffin Ships. Even as the boat was docking, these immigrants to America learned that life in America was going to be a battle for survival. Hundreds of runners, usually large greedy men, swarmed aboard the ship grabbing immigrants and their bags trying to force them to their favorite tenement house and then exact an outrageous fee for their services. As the poor immigrant had no means of moving on, they settled in the port of arrival. Almshouses were filled with these Irish immigrants. They begged on every street. One honest immigrant wrote home at the height of the potato famine exodus, "My master is a great tyrant, he treats me as badly as if I was a common Irishman." The writer further added, "Our position in America is one of shame and poverty." No group was considered lower than an Irishman in America during the 1850s. Free land did not lure them. They rejected the land for the land had rejected them; yet even so they always spoke reverently of the old sod in Ireland. All major cities had their "Irish Town" or "Shanty Town" where the Irish clung together. Our immigrant ancestors were not wanted in America. Ads for employment often were followed by "NO IRISH NEED APPLY." They were forced to live in cellars and shanties, partly because of poverty but also because they were considered bad for the neighborhood...they were unfamiliar with plumbing and running water. These living conditions bred sickness and early death. It was estimated that 80% of all infants born to Irish immigrants in New York City died. Their brogue and dress provoked ridicule; their poverty and illiteracy provoked scorn. The Chicago Post wrote, "The Irish fill our prisons, our poor houses...Scratch a convict or a pauper, and the chances are that you tickle the skin of an Irish Catholic. Putting them on a boat and sending them home would end crime in this country." Instead of apologizing for themselves they united and took offense. Insult or intimidation was often met with violence. Solidarity was their strength, they helped each other survive city life. They prayed and drank together. The men seemed to do more drinking than praying, yet it was their faith and dogged determination to become Americans that led one newspaper to say, "The Irish have become more Americanized than the Americans." The Church played an integral part in their lives. It was a militant Church--a Church who fought not only for their souls but also for their human rights. After the religious riots in Philadelphia where many Catholic churches were burned, the mayor of New York asked Archbishop Hughes, "Do you fear that some of your churches will be burned." "No sir, but I am afraid some of yours will be. We can protect our own." Later, public officials asked the Archbishop to restrain New York's Irish. "I have not the power," he said. "You must take care that they are not provoked." No Catholic church burned in New York. Actually the Irish arrived at a time of need for America. The country was growing and it needed men to do the heavy work of building bridges, canals, and railroads. It was hard, dangerous work, a common expression heard among the railroad workers was "an Irishman was buried under every tie." Desperation drove them to these jobs. Not only the men worked, but the women too. They became chamber maids, cooks, and the caretakers of children. Early Americans disdained this type of work, fit only for servants, the common sentiment being, "Let Negroes be servants, and if not Negroes, let Irishmen fill their place..." The Blacks hated the Irish and it appeared to be a mutual feeling. They were the first to call the Irish "white ******." A prominent hotel keeper was asked why all the women servants in his hotel were Irish. He replied, "The thing is very simple: the Irish girls are industrious, willing, cheerful, and honest--they work hard, and they are very strictly moral. I should say that is quite reason enough." The Irish were unique among immigrants. They fiercely loved America but never gave up their allegiance to Ireland...and they kept their hatred of the English. Twice they tried to invade Canada, believing that they could trade Canadian land for Ireland's freedom. In New York City, during the Civil War, they rioted against the draft lottery after the first drawing showed most of the names were Irish. For three days the city was terrorized by Irish mobs and only after an appeal for peace by Archbishop Hughes did it end. In Pennsylvania they formed a secret organization called the Molly Maguires to fight mine owners who brutalized the miners and their families. They ambushed mine bosses, beat, and even killed them in their homes. The Irish used brutal methods to fight brutal oppression. They loved America and gladly fought in her wars. During the Civil War they were fierce warriors, forming among other groups, the famous "Irish Brigade". A priest accompanied them and, before each battle, they would pray together before charging into the enemy--even against insurmountable odds. Their faith guided them. They felt the English might have a better life on earth, but they were going to have a better life after death. The days of "No Irish Need Apply" passed. St.Patrick day paraded replaced violent confrontations. The Irish not only won acceptance for their day, but persuaded everyone else to become Irish at least for St.Patrick's Day. The Orangemen or New York City copied the St.Pat's Day parade in 1870 and, as they marched, played "Boyne Water", "Derry" and other songs derogatory towards the Catholics. Fights broke out and only the police (themselves mostly Irish) saved the Orangemen and women. The next year another Orange parade was scheduled...the police banned it. The appearance of large numbers of Jews, Slavs, and Italian immigrants led many Americans to consider the Irish an asset; their Americanization was now recognized. Hostility shifted from the Irish to the new nationalities. Through poverty and subhuman living conditions, the Irish tenaciously clung to each other. With their ingenuity for organization, they were able to gain power and acceptance. In 1850 at the crest of the Potato Famine immigration, Orestes Brownson, a celebrated convert to Catholicism, stated: "Out of these narrow lanes, dirty streets, damp cellars, and suffocating garrets, will come forth some of the noblest sons of our country, whom she will delight to own and honor." In little more than a century his prophecy rang true. Irish-Americans had moved from the position of the despised to the oval office. WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OURSELVES ALONE DIES WITH US;WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OTHERS AND THE WORLD IS AND REMAINS IMMORTAL |
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Mom
That was a good one and would be a legitimate answer if the US was a nation of one (yours). Unfortunately, it is not and others opinions matter. |
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Anything I post on these boards is my opinion only unless accompanied by documented fact. Know that in politics my emotions is with no party. |
HUH???????? WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OURSELVES ALONE DIES WITH US;WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OTHERS AND THE WORLD IS AND REMAINS IMMORTAL |
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Mom posted that there was nothing to debate, but she deleted her post.
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I'd rather be knitting. |
You'll also want to note that Italians, Jews, and Eastern Europeans were considered non-white, with all of the social limitations that go with that. There was debate as to whether the Italians, Germans, and Irish would be able to assimilate, and the true loyalties of Catholics, Lutherans, and Jews came into question. In short, everything that's being said about our more and less recent immigrants has been said before, about other groups whose loyalties are no longer questioned.
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Stillkit  |
Thank you for the historical perspective.
Sadly, those who prefer to hate won't buy it. |
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Anything I post on these boards is my opinion only unless accompanied by documented fact. Know that in politics my emotions is with no party. |
It is amazing really. Especially the fact that the same language is used today by those of Irish descent against these new immigrants. How soon we forget our history.
WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OURSELVES ALONE DIES WITH US;WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OTHERS AND THE WORLD IS AND REMAINS IMMORTAL |
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Highly Experienced Member |
They assimilated. They came her legally. Now if you want to talk immigration so be it. Or do you want to talk Illegal immigration. They are 2 seperate issues... |
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Stillkit |
Not immediately, they didn't. It was their children and grandchildren who became indistinquishable from the "natives." These new immigrants will follow the same path. Just be patient.
What's the difference between a legal and an illegal immigrant? Let me tell you: paperwork. Before about the 1870's or so, NO documentation was required to come here. You just showed up on our shores and came on in. In other words, all those immigrants before that time would be considered as "illegals" today, and that includes my own forefathers. And, maybe yours too. |
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Anything I post on these boards is my opinion only unless accompanied by documented fact. Know that in politics my emotions is with no party. |
But the treatment remains the same, so what does that say? And as stated, legal immigration is a relatively new law. Are you saying that the Irish would not have came anyway in difiance of the law? Or the Vietnamese, or the Jews, or the Italians, or the Dutch, or any of the other immigrants which inhabit our country? Hell I heard somewhere that we are a country of immigrants. I would say even those folks who landed on he Mayflower. They didn't ask the inhabitants if they could come. They just came and claimed to discover a land where people already lived. I know what everyone is talking about in that we are supposidly getting to crowded and our resources are stretched. I just don't understand the hate coming from those who forefathers endured the same hate. Shouldn't that in itself soften the heart toward these people who are seeking the same things that their forefathers did? Just seems human to me. WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OURSELVES ALONE DIES WITH US;WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OTHERS AND THE WORLD IS AND REMAINS IMMORTAL |
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Supended ten days. TOS#6~pipedreamsandbabies |
MightyB, I believe it's the timing of the illegal immigration. After 9-11, we the people were shocked, scared, and then, angry and wanted retribution. We went to war. At the same time, 20+ millions of undocumented aliens were in our country, illegally. Then, we realized that our borders were porous. Compound the problem with our government NOT doing anything to seal the borders (hey, we're fighting abroad but, leaving our back door open for terrorist to waltz in and nuke one of our cities) AND we the people are paying for them to stay here while we are having a hard time making ends meet. I don't think people hate them more than they hate that our government are not doing anything about it. JMHO, I could be wrong...  |
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Anything I post on these boards is my opinion only unless accompanied by documented fact. Know that in politics my emotions is with no party. |
This is the most sensible argument I've heard on this subject so far. That is understandable moreso than the inane rheteric I usually hear. WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OURSELVES ALONE DIES WITH US;WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OTHERS AND THE WORLD IS AND REMAINS IMMORTAL |
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So, you're accusing Americans of Irish descent of being racist? What immigrants are we talking about? Do you mean illegal aliens? Clarify. Don't sterotype! |
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Kit, this ain't the 1870's and things are a little more complicated today. And the difference between legal immigrants and illegal aliens is simple. One chose to obey our laws and is here legally and the other chose to violate our laws and is a criminal and is here illegaly. |
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Member |
No, Mighty B immigration laws are not "fairly" new. You better do some research before you just throw crap that's not true out there to try and support your position for illiegal immigration. |
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Anything I post on these boards is my opinion only unless accompanied by documented fact. Know that in politics my emotions is with no party. |
In our world a hundred years is relatively new. The Irish migration was just a bit over two hundred years. And I am just stating how we as a species treat one another. PUFF you have the right to treat or think of other humans anyway you like. I expect no humanity from you. Maybe that's just not your way. So be it. I believe that we should begin to enforce our laws within our own government first and foremost. No bid contracts, political bribes. unlawful lobbyist contributions, etc. We can find legal and illegal wherever we look. Let the rule of law be for everyone. WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OURSELVES ALONE DIES WITH US;WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OTHERS AND THE WORLD IS AND REMAINS IMMORTAL |
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Highly Experienced Member |
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Highly Experienced Member |
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Member |
The subject WASN'T about contracts or lobbyist monies, it was about immigration. Don't try and cloud the issue. You started by throwing rocks at the Irish and immigration laws are FOR EVERYONE! |
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Anything I post on these boards is my opinion only unless accompanied by documented fact. Know that in politics my emotions is with no party. |
I was responding to the totally legal. by the book post that was made. "They are criminals" statement. If that is the only criteria for disavowing them, then I just stated that we should also disavow a lot of Washiington. To clarify my position; No I am not for open borders. What grabs my attention more than anything is the vitrial thrown at these people. And no, not all of them, because I don't want more criminals coming here. We have enough of our own to deal with. On the other hand though, it is impossible to round up all of the millions of these people who are imbeded within our society all across this country. So I say stop the influx first and then if and when someone breaks the law, deport them. To actively seek out illegals will be the same wasted money as is the war on drugs and prostitution. We have to realize that we are not going to stop certain things even with the most active enforcement. Criminals will be criminals and will eventually get caught. I just believe we have better things to spend our tax dollars on. WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OURSELVES ALONE DIES WITH US;WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OTHERS AND THE WORLD IS AND REMAINS IMMORTAL |
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Anything I post on these boards is my opinion only unless accompanied by documented fact. Know that in politics my emotions is with no party. |
I never threw rocks at anyone. I simply made comparisons. Totally different from your take. WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OURSELVES ALONE DIES WITH US;WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OTHERS AND THE WORLD IS AND REMAINS IMMORTAL |
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Member |
You call that a comparison? You just about called the Irish racists! |
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Experienced Member |
MacIntosh is a Scots name. http://cmug.com/tutorials/Macintosh_Name_History.pdf |
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Member |
Many first generation immigrants had to learn to speak English to make a living. Back at the turn of the century (1900) the US didn't provide health care or social security to take care of you.
My father's family came from Italy and they learned English (adults, too). Nothing was printed in Italian. They also came here legally and they came to be Americans. One big difference is that those coming across the border now, KNOW that they are sneaking in illegally. Their loyalties do not lie with this country. They are not here to assimilate and become American. Basically they are here to rape this country, make money, and go back to Mexico. Some (the radicals) are here to take back what they lost. The unrest is being stirred up by the radical La Raza Unida party and the very liberal Hispanic professors at some of the colleges. One of my former students told me that she was very upset with a prof because she spoke half the time in Spanish. Another told me that in her political science class, the prof was telling the students that the illegals aren't ILLEGAL!!!!! That for the Mexican people, it is their RIGHT to come into Texas up to the Canadian River before they hit the United States. Now this former student had to drop the class because she figured that there is no way she would pass the class as she spoke out -- a lone voice amongst many. Immigration is great, but it needs to be done legally. "They love our milk and honey but they preach about some other way of living When you’re running down my country, Hoss you’re walking on the fighting side of me" - - Merle Haggard |
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I'd rather be knitting. |
Not all legal immigrants were eager to learn English, (but those who desired to work quite often did)and most desired to keep at least part of their cultures. Most kept their religious practices,as well.
I don't think it's a crime to want to come here for a short time to make money, honestly, and then return. I also think that the INS could quite possibly work more efficiently to process papers, making it possible to migrate legally for a short time if one desires, and for a longer time if infrastructure permits. I know people who have been waiting since the 1980's for the citizenship process to be completed. Surely, we can do better than that. It doesn't excuse those who sneak in, but if legal processes are this way, I can understand the desire to skirt the law, at least. |
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Anything I post on these boards is my opinion only unless accompanied by documented fact. Know that in politics my emotions is with no party. |
PUFF think what you want but that is not what I meant. I compared the language used then and now, it is so alike, at least that is the way I see and read it.
WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OURSELVES ALONE DIES WITH US;WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OTHERS AND THE WORLD IS AND REMAINS IMMORTAL |
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Experienced Member |
One of the main reasons the Irish were disliked was the fact they understood English, verbal and printed - and so could not be conned or cheated due to ignorance of the local language.
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Highly Experienced Member |
MB, where have you been? 95% of the anti illegals peeps here are for attrition/self deportation of the masses of illegals. Of course the more the criminal the faster the deportation. And an actual border fence all of these things when actual enforement to include states will force them out of the country. That is the way to do this Well I have 4 naturalized citizens in my family that had to travel across an ocean legally. Not one waited 20yrs. I find people all the time saying that this and that person have been waiting decades for citizenship. Frankly they're lying. If it took that long 1. They have issues with their bios and investigations. 2. They have been here isnce the 80's but didnt bother filing until tha last couple of yrs. Now the process is slow, but usually within 2yrs of filing for citizenship it happens, and you can only do that after you are a legal resident for a number of yrs. Also, if you're trying to apply for an immigrant vise from abroad it could take decades depending on what country you are applying at. And that is no justification for people to come illegally. There is no right to immigrate here. Furthermore any amnesty will put all those people who applied legally at the back of the line. And that isnt fair! All these people that ask wherte your heart is, thats where it is for the people who do it legally! |
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Anything I post on these boards is my opinion only unless accompanied by documented fact. Know that in politics my emotions is with no party. |
I believe the fence is a good idea but something makes me wonder if the politicians do. Bush released the funds for it quite a while ago yet they have only completed 30 miles of the 750 project. Makes me wonder what the hold up is.
WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OURSELVES ALONE DIES WITH US;WHAT WE HAVE DONE FOR OTHERS AND THE WORLD IS AND REMAINS IMMORTAL |
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Stillkit |
That's easy to answer: Commitments made under the Security and Prosperity Partnership Agreement, NAFTA and other trade agreements. All mandate the free exchange of labor, which means open borders. |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint IMMIGRATION THEN AND NOW
Ok, you are obviously an illegal alien advocate that tries to blur the lines btwn legals and illegals and immigration. People who come here legally are welcome and ones that come here illegally are not. Pretty damn simple, times have changed this country is not the same as it was 100,200 yrs ago. BTW every country is a country of immigrants