Luftwaffe pilot Franz Stigler ~ German Fighter Pilot ~ American Hero ~

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Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the 379th Bomber Group at Kimbolton, England. His B-17 was called 'Ye Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having been hit by flak and fighters. The compass was damaged and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead of heading home to Kimbolton.



After flying over an enemy airfield, a pilot named Franz Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the B-17. When he got near the B-17, he could not believe his eyes. In his words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad state'. The tail and rear section was severely damaged, and the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top of the fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes everywhere.



Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17 and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.
Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the stricken plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards England. He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe.



When Franz landed he told the CO that the plane had been shot down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their briefing, but were ordered never to talk about it.



More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the Luftwaffe pilot who saved the crew. After years of research, Franz was found. He had never talked about the incident, not even at post-war reunions.



They met in the USA at a 379th Bomber Group reunion, together with 25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his guns that day. Research shows that Charlie Brown lived in Seattle and Franz Steigler had moved to Vancouver, BC after the war. When they finally met, they discovered they had lived less than 200 miles apart for the past 50 years!!


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105373

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Brown's B-17 was perhaps the most heavily damaged bomber to return from combat. It survived because of an enemy's act of chivalry.


Dec. 20, 1943, was a typically cold, overcast winter day in Britain as 2d Lt. Charles L. Brown's B-17F lined up for takeoff. It was 21-year-old Charlie Brown's first combat mission as an aircraft commander with the 379th Bomb Group, the target an FW-190 factory at Bremen, Germany. He and his crew of Ye Olde Pub were to become participants in an event probably unique at that time in the air war over Europe--a mission that would remain shrouded in mystery for many years.


The bombers began their 10-minute bomb run at 27,300 feet, the temperature: negative 60 degrees. Flak was heavy and accurate. Before "bombs away," Brown's B-17 took hits that shattered the Plexiglas nose, knocked out the number two engine, damaged number four--which frequently had to be throttled back to prevent overspeeding--and caused undetermined damage to the controls. Coming off target, Lieutenant Brown was unable to stay with the formation and became a straggler.


Almost immediately, the lone and limping B-17 came under a series of attacks from 12 to 15 Bf-109s and FW-190s that lasted for more than 10 minutes. The number three engine was hit and would produce only half power. Oxygen, hydraulic, and electrical systems were damaged, and the controls were only partially responsive. The bomber's 11 defensive guns were reduced by the extreme cold to only the two top turret guns and one forward-firing nose gun. The tailgunner was killed and all but one of the crew in the rear incapacitated by wounds or exposure to the frigid air. Lieutenant Brown took a bullet fragment in his right shoulder.


Charlie Brown figured the only chance of surviving this pitifully unequal battle was to go on the offensive. Each time a wave of attackers approached, he turned into them, trying to disrupt their aim with his remaining firepower. The last thing oxygen-starved Brown remembers was reversing a steep turn, becoming inverted, and looking "up" at the ground. When he regained full consciousness, the B-17 was miraculously level at less than 1,000 feet.


Still partially dazed, Lieutenant Brown began a slow climb with only one engine at full power. With three seriously injured aboard, he rejected bailing out or a crash landing. The alternative was a thin chance of reaching the UK. While nursing the battered bomber toward England, Brown looked out the right window and saw a Bf-109 flying on his wing. The pilot waved, then flew across the B-17's nose and motioned Brown to land in Germany, which the aircraft commander refused to do. After escorting them for several miles out over the North Sea, the Luftwaffe pilot saluted, rolled over, and disappeared. Why had he not shot them down? The answer did not emerge for many years.


The B-17 did make it across 250 miles of storm-tossed North Sea and landed at Seething near the English coast, home of the 448th Bomb Group, which had not yet flown its first mission. The crew was debriefed on their mission, including the strange encounter with the Bf-109. For unknown reasons, the debriefing was classified "secret" and remained so for many years. Lieutenant Brown went on to complete a combat tour, finish college, accept a regular commission, and serve in the Office of Special Investigations, with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and in other Air Force and State Department assignments until his retirement. He now lives in Miami, Fla., where he is founder and president of an energy and environmental research center.


The image of his strange encounter with the Bf-109 remained firmly embedded in Charlie Brown's memory. In 1986, he began a search for the anonymous pilot. Finally, in 1990, former Oberleutnant Franz Stigler, now living in Canada, responded to a notice published in a newsletter for German fighter pilots. By comparing time, place, and aircraft markings, it was determined that Stigler was the chivalrous pilot who had allowed Brown's crew to live. Not surprisingly, Brown and Stigler have become close friends.


On that December day in 1943, there had been two persuasive reasons why Stigler should have shot down the B-17. First, earlier in the day, he had downed two four-engine bombers and needed only one more that day to earn a Knight's Cross. Second, his decision to not finish off the aircraft was a court-martial offense in Nazi Germany and if revealed could have led to his execution. He considered these alternatives while flying formation with the B-17, "the most heavily damaged aircraft I ever saw that was still flying." He could see the wounded aboard and thought, "I cannot kill these half-dead people. It would be like shooting at a parachute."


Franz Stigler's act of chivalry has been justly, though belatedly, honored by several military organizations here and abroad. On the other hand, Charles Brown was not decorated for his heroism over Germany, which never was reported by the 448th Bomb Group at Seething to his commanders. Such are the fortunes of war and its aftermath.


http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-Stigler.html

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hgary2003,

Wow sounds like a rare case of humanity during war, which is so awful. Is this something that will ever happen again? Maybe, maybe not.

"Knights of the Air" sometimes thats True.

Reminds Me of Friedrich Lengfeld, Leutnant, Deutche Heer who on November 12th, 1944 died of Severe Wounds sustained while trying to help a wounded American Soldier out of a Minefield during the Nightmarish Huertgen forest battle.

I remember a story I read from a book while in school.

An American pilot flying a P-47 was shot up, out of ammo and headed back to base when jumped by a FW-190.

He couldn't maneuver, all he could do was cringe behind the armor with cannon and machine gun rounds pounding it.

The German pulled alongside, looked the plane over, and went back behind him and pounded him some more.

Pulled alongside again, shook his head, saluted and banked away.

The American had to manually prime the engine to keep it from overheating on the trip back, and by the time he landed his glove was worn through and his hand was bloody.

Good ol' Thunderbolts and Flying Forts!

Brought lotsa guys back home.


High Flight
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long delirious, burning blue,
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untresspassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

Pilot Officer John Gillespie Magee Jr.
No 412 squadron, RCAF
Killed 11 December 1941

This message has been edited. Last edited by: <SSgtRobertMorris>,

Voluntarily? I wouldn't do anything to save the life of the enemy...

Unfortunately, Uncle Sam has policies implemented to do just the opposite - And for an entire year in Iraq, my main mission was to provide the lowest forms of life on earth with free medical care.

Whoopie.

quote:

In War What Would You Do To Save The Life of Your Enemy?

Depends if he has information.

I think that most of us would help a wounded Soldier from the opposition.

In this war, the combatants are not Soldiers, as such. They do not wear uniforms. However, I would like to think that if one of us were to happen upon an enemy that was defenseless and needed help, that we would help them. We would most likely try to get them to a POW area rather than release them.

In the WW's, people were a part of the machine. When confronted by another human being that was unable to defend themselves, many may not have 'helped' their enemy so much as merely ceased to attack them. How can a son/daughter of God do any less?

quote:

Originally posted by 4403771:
I think that most of us would help a wounded Soldier from the opposition.

In this war, the combatants are not Soldiers, as such. They do not wear uniforms. However, I would like to think that if one of us were to happen upon an enemy that was defenseless and needed help, that we would help them. We would most likely try to get them to a POW area rather than release them.

In the WW's, people were a part of the machine. When confronted by another human being that was unable to defend themselves, many may not have 'helped' their enemy so much as merely ceased to attack them. How can a son/daughter of God do any less?

I agree, this war is a different then any other war weve faced, as im sure everyone knows. We are not fighting an enemy like the regular nazi foot soldier. These people hate us due to a extremist religon. They take no prisoners. Now should we have a "they break the rules so we can to" mentality? I dont think so. I would like to think of us as above them. I would like to think that we dont kill unarmed people. Dont get me wrong I feel no sympathy for a dead terrorist and i would not hesitate to put a bullet between the eyes of one. As for me being able to help one after seeing the things they do to women and children....I dont know.

quote:

Originally posted by joshuacarnes:
for an entire year in Iraq, my main mission was to provide the lowest forms of life on earth with free medical care.

Whoopie.

Dude, my hat's off to ya.
Don't think I could have done it.
No, I know I could not have.
I would somehow have hastened their delivery to their harem of 72 virgins. Guaranteed.

Well, in flying combat, the usual point is to shoot the plane down, not so much the pilot in it. That was a very cool thing for Franz to do.

As for the ground pounders, well, that would be a bit different. You wouldnt want to leave an enemy behind you that could kill you later.

I am not sure why that is different, but it is.

quote:

Originally posted by RAaron02:

quote:

Originally posted by 4403771:
I think that most of us would help a wounded Soldier from the opposition.

In this war, the combatants are not Soldiers, as such. They do not wear uniforms. However, I would like to think that if one of us were to happen upon an enemy that was defenseless and needed help, that we would help them. We would most likely try to get them to a POW area rather than release them.

In the WW's, people were a part of the machine. When confronted by another human being that was unable to defend themselves, many may not have 'helped' their enemy so much as merely ceased to attack them. How can a son/daughter of God do any less?

I agree, this war is a different then any other war weve faced, as im sure everyone knows. We are not fighting an enemy like the regular nazi foot soldier. These people hate us due to a extremist religon. They take no prisoners. Now should we have a "they break the rules so we can to" mentality? I dont think so. I would like to think of us as above them. I would like to think that we dont kill unarmed people. Dont get me wrong I feel no sympathy for a dead terrorist and i would not hesitate to put a bullet between the eyes of one. As for me being able to help one after seeing the things they do to women and children....I dont know.

Not exactly different than any war we have fought. Vietnam comes to mind. The comparisons could be an un-winnable war against a populace that does not want our help and is more than 2/3rds against us.

quote:

Originally posted by DocTrowerFMF:

quote:

Originally posted by joshuacarnes:
for an entire year in Iraq, my main mission was to provide the lowest forms of life on earth with free medical care.

Whoopie.

Dude, my hat's off to ya.
Don't think I could have done it.
No, I know I could not have.
I would somehow have hastened their delivery to their harem of 72 virgins. Guaranteed.

It SUCKS. A lot.

The only reason I maintained my military bearing was to uphold the integrity of the unit... I didn't want us ending up on CNN because of some BS 'detainee abuse' scandal.

Detainee health care is simply a waste of time, money, and manpower. They are animals and deserve absolutely nothing of the sort.

If the insurgency actually fathomed the mere concept of honor and abode by the rules of warfare themselves - Then I would think twice about actually giving them the time of day... But what good is a game where the rules only apply to one side? None.

It's the main reason I'm refusing the reenlist - I find it absolutely insulting that my country would ask me to care for the enemy... If ONE detainee is treated, released, and then kills a US soldier afterwards - Is it worth it? Their death would essentially be our own doing; not to mention 100% avoidable.

If anyone thinks I'm wrong - Then they are more than welcome to take my place... There will definitely be a free spot opening very soon.

quote:

Originally posted by joshuacarnes:
It's the main reason I'm refusing the reenlist - I find it absolutely insulting that my country would ask me to care for the enemy... If ONE detainee is treated, released, and then kills a US soldier afterwards - Is it worth it? Their death would essentially be our own doing; not to mention 100% avoidable.

If anyone thinks I'm wrong - Then they are more than welcome to take my place... There will definitely be a free spot opening very soon.

I don't think anybody can blame you for not re-enlisting. It's a no brainer, if you were to be sent back there. Odds are pretty good you would, right?
Then get out and come to work for the VA where you can feel good about your job...

Your words kind of remind me of the 80's show MASH.
Hawkeye would do anything he could to help the enemy (medically). Even then, I was like, "why?"

Actually, I've been looking into the VA... There's one here in NJ literally two blocks from my house. I could easily just walk to work every day.

Hans Scharff, a Luftwaffe interrogator at Oberursel, had a reputation for being able to obtain information from all of the Allied prisoners he questioned--without torture, I'd add.

One prisoner provided him with an interesting piece of information--when the guns on American fighters were loaded, the last 50 rounds were white tracers. This was to alert the pilot that he was out of ammo. Scharff passed this information along and later it was learned that a number of German fighter pilots disengaged their American opponents when they saw those tracers....

The flip side to that story was the story of an American pilot Scharff couldn't "break"--he resisted Scharff's questions to the end. Scharff was ready to give up when the American stood facing a window, his back toward Scharff, and laughed softly. He then gave him a tidbit of minor information.

The Allies apparently knew about Scharff, probably from escaped POWs, and they knew his reputation. And the American graciously allowed him to preserve it....

Actual soldiers and depending on the situation...maybe...

But not the same scum who will come back through a checkpoint the next day with bombs strapped to their chest

Doc Trower, I was about to ask you about the astronaut wings and the second class crow on your profile. Kool, dude.

To the topic at hand, as a Hospital Corpsman, we are duty bound to do no harm. We are to preserve life - whatever life - that may need it. My own experience: after a rapid MMART deployment to the PG in 87, our Army Seabat helos engaged a whole gaggle of Iranian Boghammer gunboats and laid waste. We got the four surviving Iranians and patched them up. I was the LPO for the team and the team's respiratory therapist, so I had direct contact with them, especially postoperatively. And I supervised the other Corpsmen assigned to the ward and ICU on USS Guadalcanal. Although they were under armed guard at all times, I had the opportunity to talk with them and have friendly conversations with them.

The thing is that they were very grateful to us for what we did but their outlook was grim because the Red Crescent Society intervened and acted as the agent for their repatriation to Iran and eventual execution.

I had no problem doing that even when they were engaged in active hostilities against us. I am proud of what my team did for them even though they did not live long afterward.


Thanks for the cool story opening this important thread.

Doc Commander

quote:

Originally posted by ipw533:
The flip side to that story was the story of an American pilot Scharff couldn't "break"--he resisted Scharff's questions to the end. Scharff was ready to give up when the American stood facing a window, his back toward Scharff, and laughed softly. He then gave him a tidbit of minor information.

The Allies apparently knew about Scharff, probably from escaped POWs, and they knew his reputation. And the American graciously allowed him to preserve it....

Sounded very interesting, so I had to google his name, I'm very glad I did, awesome story of a fine German Officer, I got to give it to those Germans, out of a whole mess of dirty Nazis, there were a few of them that were nothing less than Honorable men to be highly respected.

Here is what I found:

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http://www.merkki.com/new_page_2.htm

Hanns Scharff was primarily an American 8th and 9th Air Force Fighter pilot interrogator. He was considered the best of the interrogators at Dulag Luft. He gained the reputation of magically getting all the answers he needed from the prisoners of war, often with the prisoners never realizing that their words, small talk or otherwise, were important pieces of the mosaic. It is said he always treated his prisoners with respect and dignity and by using psychic not physical techniques, he was able to make them drop their guard and converse with him even though they were conditioned to remain silent. One POW commented that "Hanns could probably get a confession of infidelity from a nun." Hanns personally stepped in to search for information that saved the lives of six US POWs when the SS wanted to execute them. Many acts of kindness by Scharff to sick and dying American POWs are documented. He would regularly visit some of the more seriously ill POWs and arrange to make their accommodations more humane. At one time the Luftwaffe was investigating him. After the war, he was invited by the USAF to make speeches about his methods to military audiences in the US and he eventually moved to the United States. General Jimmy Doolittle was one of the first to extend the hand of friendship to Hanns after the war, inviting him to a luncheon where they compared notes. Later he was invited to the home of Col. Hub Zemke who thereafter would send Hanns what he called a "Red Cross Parcel" every Christmas. And 38 years after he was Hanns "guest" at Dulag Luft - Oberursel, Col. Francis "Gabby" Gabreski was a guest of honor at Hanns 75th birthday party. In the United States Scharff worked as a mosaic artist. His works are on display in Cinderella's castle at Disney World.

In truth, I don't believe I would either.Which I understand my being a Corpsman/Medic/Nurse,goes against my training to save a life.But those are some of my "demon's".

I have to agree with you Josh, letting them animals be treated good while our own guys would never get the same treatment disgusts me.

However, I did have a talk with an officer once, he said that is what makes the US better than them.

That made me think, I dont think I still like the idea of them getting special treatment while they would gladly kill our troops if given the chance.

It was a thought to think of though..

My personel believe is simple, kill them all so we dont have to hunt them down later. You leave one alive, he will do whatever he can to kill us.

quote:

Originally posted by THANKUVETS:

My personel believe is simple, kill them all so we dont have to hunt them down later. You leave one alive, he will do whatever he can to kill us.

I agree, this war really is a differant than the war against Germany all the way around, during WWII the Germans had nothing personal against us, as we didn't have any personal feeling against them either, it was just a job to find and kill the enemy, no hard feelings on either side.

But as for these terrorists we are at war with now, it's very personal, it's deep, dark & deadly, from what I understand, they have to kill for their religion, and their hate for America runs deep.

So as for our current enemy, Kill 'Em All - Let God Sort 'Em Out!

For a correction to that last post, when I said "kill em all let God sort em out" I was speaking only of the enemy, not all Iraqi's, or any other ethnic group from the mid-east, there are a lot of Iraqi's that need, and should have our help, but for the one's who want to kill us, I say blow them all the way to allah.

NO MERCY!

Git 'Er Done!

It depends on what enemy you're talking about. I couldn't in good conscious go out of my way to save any enemy combatant in the Iraqi or Afghan Theater of war.

I know they'll be back on the street planting IEDs. Uniformed enemy in a conventional war who will stay in a POW camp until the war is over I would help to the best of my ability.

great story hgary takes you back to a time when warriors on both sides had honor... there are also a few air stories during ww1 like that also...

A great story about 2 warriors who had respect and honor. That is something sadly lacking in our world today. The war against Germany was so different then any other since then and the war against Japan. Thank you for posting it. And yes I would help a wounded enemy, but I would expect him or her to be interred for the rest of that war.

I can understand how a German pilot would perform such a humane act. First of all, this was a completely different generation that was brought up on a set of values based on chivalry, honor and to some degree, pragmatism. As a combat pilot, Stigler was a trained observer who could respect a worthy adversary's determined courage under fire. He probably realized on a more practical side that this aircraft no longer posed a direct threat and that the pilot was just trying to get his crew to safety. Makes sense that Stigler would first attempt to get the plane to land immediately; I think all pilots today would do the same thing if the aircraft no longer posed a threat. However, the extra step Stigler took was an act of omission: when the B-17 refused to land, he allowed it to fly away rather than shoot it down, which would be the order of day in today's military regardless of nation (to shoot it down if it didn't follow instructions).

Don't know much about Stigler, but I assume that his background was probably steeped in aristocracy with a sense of honor, chivalry and fair play. And this isn't something unique to Europeans. The Japanese also honored brave opponents, except they did it by beheading them: something we found crude and barbaric. However, to the Japanese, this was an honorable death that traces its origins to the Samurai warriors.

The Sioux, Apaches, and many other Native Americans also had ways of recognizing worthy opponents and paying respect to them.

I'm not so sure the same would occur today. Many traditions have been either so watered down or simply forgotten. I think we would simply either kill our enemy or, under standard rules of warfare, take them prisoner as an obligation under rules of engagement as opposed to any sense of "respect" or "honor" for a "worthy opponent."

Vietnam, 45th Med Co. We hauled enemy wounded all the time. They were just another patient. VC or uniformed made no difference.

As depicted in the movie Zulu, the Zulu could have finished off the British garrison at Roarke's Drift but didn't. Instead, they saluted a "worthy opponent" and withdrew. In their minds, they understood that the British were beaten but chose to give them the respect they deserved for standing as bravely as they did--they allowed them to keep the field. By European standards that meant the Zulu admitted defeat, but I seriously doubt any of those Zulu warriors felt defeated.

As Toome pointed out, different cultures have different standards of honor. Chivalry is a European concept, but the feelings behind it are more universal....