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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint Carbon tax 1, the lie.|
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+++http://www.michaelgraham.com/
Carbon Taxes, Yes! Carbon Science? by Michael Graham June 29, 2009 @ 08:13 Not so much. While Pelosi and Pals were shoving through a multi-trillion-dollar carbon tax plan in the name of "climate change," here's what was happening in the world of actual climate science. First there's the new "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy from the EPA: The Environmental Protection Agency may have suppressed an internal report that was skeptical of claims about global warming, including whether carbon dioxide must be strictly regulated by the federal government, according to a series of newly disclosed e-mail messages. Less than two weeks before the agency formally submitted its pro-regulation recommendation to the White House, an EPA center director quashed a 98-page report that warned against making hasty “decisions based on a scientific hypothesis that does not appear to explain most of the available data.” It's bad enough that every Massachusetts congressman voted for a carbon tax without reading the bill. But couldn't they at least read the studies of their own EPA? I guess not, given that even the EPA won't read them. And, unfortunately, it's not just the US government that's avoiding inconvenient scientific truths: Over the coming days a curiously revealing event will be taking place in Copenhagen. Top of the agenda at a meeting of the Polar Bear Specialist Group (set up under the International Union for the Conservation of Nature/Species Survival Commission) will be the need to produce a suitably scary report on how polar bears are being threatened with extinction by man-made global warming. ...But one of the world's leading experts on polar bears has been told to stay away from this week's meeting, specifically because his views on global warming do not accord with those of the rest of the group. Dr Taylor had obtained funding to attend this week's meeting of the PBSG, but this was voted down by its members because of his views on global warming. The chairman, Dr Andy Derocher, a former university pupil of Dr Taylor's, frankly explained in an email (which I was not sent by Dr Taylor) that his rejection had nothing to do with his undoubted expertise on polar bears: "it was the position you've taken on global warming that brought opposition". Dr Taylor was told that his views running "counter to human-induced climate change are extremely unhelpful". Remember: this pseudo-science is being used for massive tax increases on you and your employer. Massachusetts rate payers are paying an extra $100 million a year thanks to Gov. Patrick's "climate" policy. There's a new bio-fuel requirement that's likely to send the cost of Massachusetts heating oil soaring. And now the "we never even read the bill" carbon tax that Barney Frank and Friends just stuck us with. All over a scientific theory that is becoming more and more suspect among actual scientists every day. |
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+++http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/06/023915.php
Obama's EPA Quashes Climate Change Science |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Yep, no need for real experts, pls stay away you are not helpful in our lies.
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"Bowlers have BIG balls!"  |
   "The World's Finest" |
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-------------------  Proud Member Derelict Veterans' Group -------------------  |
A politician lie?? Really? Who woulda thunk. Now we only have hope, cause he is taking the change. Todays politics remind me of an old saying. - "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" - Joseph Stalin |
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Notice, no one even tried to defend this action.
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Highly Experienced Member |
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That 'science' report was not written by scientists at all:
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And who is paying for this "science"? Exxon's Cash Pipeline to CEI Exxonsecrets.org lists Exxon's funding of CEI, based on data released by the company itself, as totalling $2,005,000 since 1998. [9] The specific year-by-year fugures are: * 1998: $85,000 ExxonMobil Corporate Giving * 2000: $230,000 ExxonMobil Foundation * 2001: $280,000 ExxonMobil Foundation * 2002: $205,000 ExxonMobil Foundation: This was identified as being for "50K congressional briefing program, 140K general operating support, 60K legal activities"; * 2002: $200,000 ExxonMobil Corporate Giving' This was identified as "140K general operating support, 60K for legal activities;" * 2003: $25,000 ExxonMobil Corporate Giving for "Annual Dinner" * 2003: $440,000 ExxonMobil Foundation for "General Operating Support"; * 2004: $90,000 ExxonMobil Foundation for "General Operating Support" * 2004: $90,000 ExxonMobil Foundation for "Global Climate Change" * 2004: $90000 ExxonMobil Foundation for "Global Climate Change Outreach" * 2005: $90,000 ExxonMobil Foundation for "General Operating Support" * 2005: $180,000 ExxonMobil Corporate Giving for "General Operating Support" |
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Good on Exxon. Trying to get the TRUTH out.
I like how you posted the companies that will benefit this Cap and Trade agreement. Yep...ol Exxon fighting for ITS RIGHTS. |
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Actually when you think about it....$25,000 for the annual dinner is getting off pretty cheap. Didn't some of the politician fundraisers require about that much "per person?" "They love our milk and honey but they preach about some other way of living When you’re running down my country, Hoss you’re walking on the fighting side of me" - - Merle Haggard |
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Experienced Member |
---http://lewrockwell.com/orig9/deming3.html
"As I write, satellite data show that the mean global temperature is the same that it was in 1979. The extent of global sea ice is also unchanged from 1979. Since the end of the last Ice Age, sea level has risen more than a hundred meters. But for the last three years, there has been no rise in sea level. If the polar ice sheets are melting, why isn't sea level rising? Global warming is supposed to increase the severity and frequency of tropical storms. But hurricane and typhoon activity is at a record low. Every year in the US, more than forty thousand people are killed in traffic accidents. But not one single person has ever been killed by global warming. The number of species that have gone extinct from global warming is exactly zero. Both the Antarctic and Greenland Ice Sheets are stable. The polar bear population is increasing. There has been no increase in infectious disease that can be attributed to climate change. We are not currently experiencing more floods, droughts, or forest fires. In short, there is no evidence of any type to support the idea that we are entering an era when significant climate change is occurring and will cause the deterioration of either the natural environment or the human standard of living." |
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Posting the truth by sponsoring groups who have no background in science whatsoever? Did you also agree with tobacco companies funding groups who denied smoking causes cancer? This is interesting, from 2007: NEW YORK (Reuters) - Exxon Mobil Corp. gave over $2 million in 2006 to groups Greenpeace called global warming skeptics even as the oil company campaigned to improve its climate-unfriendly image. Nevertheless, Exxon, the world's largest publicly traded company, cut its donations to these groups by more than 40 percent from 2005. The company still funds about 40 "skeptic groups," according to the report from Greenpeace, but Exxon disputed that many of the organizations were "global warming deniers." The groups listed include: the American Enterprise Institute, the Cato Institute, the Heritage Foundation, and the National Black Chamber of Commerce. Many of them concern themselves with a wide range of issues. Earlier this year, Exxon said it had stopped funding a handful of groups, including the Competitive Enterprise Institute, that have downplayed the risks of carbon dioxide emissions. Exxon has argued that its position on global warming has been widely misunderstood and has taken part in industry talks on greenhouse gas emission regulations. "We believe that climate change is a serious issue and that action is warranted now," said Exxon Mobil spokesman Dave Gardner. "http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSN1843960820070518" |
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Member |
You just posted a link from a site run by a columnist. He links to another site (junkscience.com) run by a former Foxnews columnist. He also posted science links which totally contradict his statements. Did he not think people would actually click on them? Here is one rebuttal from one of his sources responding to George Will, who wrote a column based on the same data: We do not know where George Will is getting his information, but our data shows that on February 15, 1979, global sea ice area was 16.79 million sq. km and on February 15, 2009, global sea ice area was 15.45 million sq. km. Therefore, global sea ice levels are 1.34 million sq. km less in February 2009 than in February 1979. This decrease in sea ice area is roughly equal to the area of Texas, California, and Oklahoma combined. "http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/02/22/a-wrinkle-in-ice-or-not/" |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Why do you have two threads running on this in the same forum at the same time?
http://forums.military.com/eve...2893/m/2100091722001 |
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2 seperate issues
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Experienced Member |
It is amazing how some people will deny climate change is a ticking timebomb. While many are bickering, we continue to pollute our air, water and soil at an alarming rate. I like to use the analogy of a septic system...for those of you who have one on their property, you know what they are. Bottom line, you can only stuff so much s#it in them before you have to have it pumped out...and then the mess is only deposited somewhere else, and that area has to eventually be cleaned out.
But forget about all of the studies out there, use your own powers of observation. How many areas around your own hometown is the ground water polluted? How many acres of landfill have been chewed up with our trash? How much pollution has been dumped into our oceans? How many gallons of fossil fuel are we burning converting buried carbon into atmospheric carbon? Why is so much freah water disappearing? Sure, the Earth may have existed in the past with higher forms of carbon compounds floating around but at what conditions? Most of us maintain our homes, our bodies, our vehicles...why? Simply because we want to preserve them, not destroy them. Why should it be any different for planet Earth? Climatic changes are strange...they sort of creep up on ya and then bang, things flip almost overnight. They are sudden and dramatic...systems reach a tipping point. The human body is much the same. We can be ill, not be aware of it as our bodily systems battle against the change due to illness, then bam, you realize you ill...and sometimes it is too late. We have to face the fact, energy in the future will cost more and more as resources are depleted. America should embark uponm developing free energy systems (aside from the cost of development and construction) to power much of our Contry. A few months back, the magazine Scientific American had a lengthy article about how within ten years, America could meet all of its electrical needs with solar, wind, and photovoltaic systems. Lets forget about pollution and think of the billions of dollars we would not be sending to countries that for all practical purposes hate our guts...cutting off their money is enough for me to want to pay more for my energy as long as it keeps dollars here in America for Americans. As a result of the article in SA, me and my wife are having installed on our home a photovoltaic roof shingle system that will produce 6Kw of power on a sunny day, half on a cloudy day. It will have a storage system and best of all, excess power is sold back to the grid at 2 Cents above the prevailing customer rate. The 6Kw is a little overkill but we wanted a system to provide enough power to run central air in summer and heat in winter along with whatever we ran in our home without ever having to use power from the grid. The system will cost us in round numbers $28,000 but with the federal and state tax breaks, and local property tax breaks, the cost is reduced to about $14,000...a price we are willing to pay to get off of the grid. With the tax breaks, a modest income from selling power back to the grid, our break even point is five to seven years. The money we were spending each month on oil and electricity will be gone with the savings diverted to pay for the system. All in all, a good deal...no more of our money going to foreign countries paying for oil and in a few years, free power. In Denmark and Norway, such systems are mandatory on all new home construction...we should be doing the same. Right now, $700 billion dollars annually goes to foreign countries to pay for oil, and that cost will only increase as time passes...lets be serious, imagine if we could keep those dollars in America for Americans! S/F Gordon |
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How many ages have you lived through? |
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------------------- Proud Member Derelict Veterans' Group ------------------- |
Off topic a bit but yes, President Obama's did. Todays politics remind me of an old saying. - "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" - Joseph Stalin |
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Experienced Member |
If a person is capable of reading, listening and studying...the geological record is available and spells out in great detail climatic changes of the past. It isn't neccessary to have 'lived' through the changes. Your post readily demonstrates the absurd lengths some people will go to in order to make themselves a contrarian, when relevant evidence is easily available to those who wish to avail themselves of the scientific data.
S/F Gordon _____________________________________________ threerings Posted Tue 30 June 2009 09:13 AM quote: Climatic changes are strange...they sort of creep up on ya and then bang, things flip almost overnight. How many ages have you lived through? |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Of course climate changes over time. The current level of temp. is still COOL by a considerable amount, and will remain so as long as there is a continent at the South Pole.
There is no question that there has been a cycle of glaciation / interglacial for millions of years. This most recent 125 year full cycle of freezing to current conditions has occured over and over for 1.6 million years. These cycles will continue regardless of what we do as long as Antartica is located at the S, Pole. Even the most pro-warnmists admit that this cap-trade freeze and starve in the dark bill , assuming the warmist theory is correct, the action would result in a decrease of the projected temp. increase of 0.10 Deg F. by the END OF THE CENTURY! A tenth of a degree is well within the margins of error for a system who's exact parameters are not yet understood. So the idea that we should spend billions and billions and trillions of dollars , impovershing our descendents on what at best is a bad bet is completely insane. And why would unnatural cool weather for this period in the larger cycle be "better" than warmer? Warmer means more rain, more crops, all benefiting humans as it has been in all historical warm periods. Colder, as from 1400 or so to the 19th century has seen suffering, war, revolution, plague, and death. The issue is not , again NOT , climate change, but POWER. The politicians seek POWER over you, and if we are so stupid to give it to them, it will be WELCOME to SERFDOM ! Because Al Sharpton knows what's best, right? |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Oh, Sgt. Gordon, what are you using to store energy for those days when you need more that your system can provide? And at night? What are you going to do at night?
A friend, Don Tisdale, took himself off the grid, he so hated LILCO (now LIPA), bottom line is he had to buy a 2 cyl. diesel generator, a gas powered refrigerator and stove. Only in winter was the electricity "on" much after dark. It was inconvenient and cost him about the SAME as it had before he did all the work and was on the grid. Eventually, he gave up and went back on the grid. |
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Experienced Member |
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Part of the system is storage. The entire house was wired with a power recognition grid. When we go to bed, we hit a switch, our power usage in the house is analyzed and anything that does not need power is switched off...anything that robs power such as computers, clocks on a stove, microwave, cable TV is shut off. All that remains using power are things like the refridgerator, freezer, electric bedside clocks, heating and cooling circuits remain hot when demans require usage of either, house alarm system...absolute minimal amount of electricity is used. The system also has as part of its program, day time settings...if no one is home, the system powers the house down as it would at night when we retire to bed. The heating system is a heat pump with a back up hot water oil system. With everything powered down, it does not utilize much power and depending upon temperature settings for heat and cooling draw on the storage is minimal. There is no claim the system will always provide enough electricity if everything in the house is drawing power but with proper usage, it is a rare event when you run out. Even if the system doesn't produce enough electricity, the amount used from the grid is minimal. And if you have sold excess power to the power company, you receive two cents over the rate charged to customers, it offsets any electrical usage we have to pay for. The numbers in savings are fairly easy to calculate...a worse case scenario with a 6Kw system still has a payoff of six or seven years. I certainly do not see the price of home heating oil, electricity becoming cheaper as the years pass...is it a bit of a calculated risk...sure but, I feel confident it is a good bet the system will be worth the cost. S/F Gordon |
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It does spell them out...pity you dont understand the information and data you've read. |
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Experienced Member |
Rather than going into a long answer, look up photovoltaic roof shingles and the systems available. Most sites provide a good explanation about how the system works.
I'm not sure what type of system your friend had but my guess is it wasn't a photovoltaic system and may have been only a partial system/set-up. S/F Gordon ______________________________________________
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Highly Experienced Member |
No, ther only country, Sgt Gordon, that had photo-Roof shingles at the time was Japan. He was single, owned no computer, and when sleeping, everything was shut down.
You have no storage....we here on the coast at the 41rd N. Lat cannot get away with a ground based system (I hate LIPA too, and would change in a heartbeat just to tell them to "screw off") just went thru a period of unusually cool weather and overcast/rain that lasted 6 weeks. We were "blessed" with a mixture of high winds and becalming, indeed, this entire year has been cooler than normal with more rain than normal. A few miles to my north, in Ct., one area got the Average total July rainfall in one day. Every so often, I go thru the exercise of pricing alternate energy to suit this local climate. Last year, including Optima deep cycle storage batteries (spiral would lead acid jell batteries, no fumes, very efficient), inverters, and a vertical axis wind generator, with margins for times like the last 6 weeks, the price exceeded $45,000 (actually, I quit at 45k) . May I ask what parallel are you at and what is your annual unclouded sunlight recieved? Along the east coasts , seems to me that Virginia Beach (36 deg N.) in the begining of an area where such a system would be reasonable with a small vertical axis wind turbine assist. Repayment would be more than 10 years not including updates, replacements and repairs. Keep us posted on your early results, please, and success to your efforts! |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint Carbon tax 1, the lie.
