Here is something I recently encountered.

I applied for a "Explosives Handler GS-5" position back in July, 2007. I had also told an old army buddy about it, and he applied as well. Both of us get refered to the selecting agent. And then neither of us heard anything till November. That's when my buddy was called and told to come in for his physical and orientation (there was no interview). I however was never called.

The job itself is manufacture and warehouse/shipping of munitions for the Army. (It's a Navy base but the job is for the Army). My friend has been a security guard for the past 13 years. He has no manufacturing or warehouse experience. I have 3 years of warehouse experience and almost 7 years of manufacturing experience working for General Electric. My friend has a general discharge from the Army. I have an honorable.

Shortly after my friend was selected they posted the same job again. I was somewhat confused and called the number given. I was told that the roster for the other posting had been exhausted. And I was told to apply to the new posting. This confused me as I'd been refereed on the first posting, but not called. But I went ahead and did. My status (on the CPOL website) once again says I've been refereed.

An interesting additional bit of information. When my friend went in for his orientation he met a few of his fellow new hires. Two of those were "just out of high school" age people. Both of whom just happened to have relatives that have been working at the base for 20+ years. And even more interesting. NONE of the people in his group went through an interview. My question is how would those two have more experience for the job than I? Let alone enough to cancel out my 5 point vet pref?

Any ideas? Thanks for your time!

Since there is no information on who you are, I guess that you do not qualify for a veterans preference. With a General, your friend did not. If you are eligible for a veterans preference, I would follow to procedure to file a complaint.

If you have experience with GE, why apply for a GS-5. That is a low man job.

What kind of information on me personally were you interested in? I'm eligible for a 5 point veterans preference (have confirmed this when applying for other federal jobs).

GE laid me, and over 2,000 other people, off from the plant I worked at. Some of us transfered to another plant afterwards. Where 11 months later we were laid off again. I have since cut all ties with GE. Won't even buy GE products. In both cases the job I was doing was moved to Mexico (viva la NAFTA).

I applied to a government job seeking job security. And thinking that the "good old boy" system that is all over the private sector would not apply there. My experience with GE was on a manufacturing assembly line. And with more and more of those jobs leaving the county (the good paying ones atleast) it doesn't help much.

As for starting out at GS-5, why not? Can always work your way up from there. The starting pay is $15.65 an hour (plus $1.80 an hour hazard pay = $17.45 an hour). In an area where the average wage is $9-$10 an hour that is quite a good job.

As to filing a complaint, how do I proceed to do that?

Your profile is blank. Here are some links to help you.

http://federaljobs.net/veterans.htm#VETERANS%20PREFERENCE_1
http://www.opm.gov/veterans/
http://www.dol.gov/elaws/vetspref.htm


And a quote:
A federal agency hiring candidates from an examination list must consider the top three available candidates for each vacancy. An agency may not pass over a candidate with preference and select an individual without preference who has the same or lower score, unless OPM approves the agency's reasons.

Thank you for the links. I'll certainly check them out!

One question. Is it normal for GS positions to be filled without any interviews at all? That's the one thing that really stands out from this for me.

It depends. If there is a test, they are required to choose from the top 3 candidates and if one is a vet, they can not pass over the vet. Test is a relative term, a test can be an evaluation by HR or a checklist of credentials.

Posted this on another forum. Thought you might be interested in seeing what the job was. The following is the Vacancy Announcement from the November posting. I have the one from July as well, but it's pretty much the same.

<i>
DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY
Vacancy Announcement Number: NCBG07409331D

Opening Date: November 27, 2007 Closing Date: December 03, 2007

Position: Explosives Handler, WG-6501-5
Salary: $15.65 - $18.26 Hourly
Place of Work: Crane Army Ammo Activity-SJMCN;Manufacturing & Engineering Dir - ME;Depot Ops Dir-DO;Ammunition Surveillance Div - DOQ;AND Storage Div-DOS; Crane, IN

Position Status: Temporary Position Not to Exceed: 1 years -- Intermittent
Number of Vacancy: Many

DEPARTMENT OF ARMY RANKED ONE OF THE TOP TEN FEDERAL WORKPLACES FOR 2007!

Duties: Requires manual dexterity,ability to follow instructions,remain alert under stressful conditions.Follow written/oral instructions & ability to understand/comply without hesitation.Work requires acute continual alertness to details to insure safety & quality are strictly observed.Must be able to use measuring instruments (calibrated ruler,depth micrometer,stop watches,vernier calipers, etc).Use simple blueprints/written specifications.Requires knowledge in identifying/verifying discrepant/damage conditions of material/stock by visual inspection, or counting items.Requires knowledge of ammo/explosives, storage/magazine regs & knowledge of different condition codes for materiels.Requires thorough knowledge of Center’s regulations for handling of explosives.Must pass all physical & mental stability tests. Will be subject to periodic recertification as to mental & physical condition. Must be able to operate hand trucks,transporters,forklifts & other types of material handling equipment.

About the Position: MISSION STATEMENT CRANE: To perform the receipt, storage, issue, inventory accuracy and preparation for shipment functions. To plan and direct the Activitys ammunition surveillance program. To produce, for peacetime and replenishment, and renovate conventional ammunition, missiles and related components. Perform manufacturing, engineering, and product assurance in support of production. Plan, program, manage, receive, renovate, store, issue, ship, and/or demilitarize and dispose of conventional ammunition, missiles, and their associated components. Test, assemble, disassemble and screen missiles and components.
The immediate supervisor and selecting official for DO, DOS and DOQ will be a Supply Management Officer. The immediate supervisor and selecting official for ME will be the Supervisory Program Manager.

Who May Apply:

All U. S. citizens and Nationals with allegiance to the United States.

Qualifications:
Trades and Labor
PHYSICAL EFFORT:Physical demands are arduous. At times it is necessary to lift heavy items for long periods of time at production rates. Kneeling, standing, bending and other awkward positions are necessary at times, as well as pushing or pulling of heavily loaded carts and/or hand trucks. Some areas will require the use of respirators.
WORKING CONDITIONS:Working conditions vary w/type of assignment and range from those in well-lighted, well-ventilated areas, to noisy, steam-heated areas with excess moisture/heat; and unheated and poorly illuminated magazines and warehouses. Work may be performed outdoors in various weather conditions in hazardous waste areas governed by EPA requirements being exposed to dirt, noise, dust, fumes, extensive standing, walking, heavy lifting and repetitive body movements. Subject to danger from slipping and falling objects. Worker may be exposed to danger of explosion and fire while working with explosives, chemicals, and loaded ammunition; also exposed to cuts and bruises, skin irritations and rashes, burns, nausea, fractures of hand and feet, and loss of limbs to fatalities.

OTHER1)This announcement closes at 12 midnight EST on the date listed above(2)If you have questions regarding building your resume in Armys Resume Builder, sending your resume or accessing ANSWER, please e-mail your questions to applicanthelp@cpsrxtp.belvoir.army.mil (3)Position is in a bargaining unit(4)THIS POSITION IS SUBJECT TO LAUTENBERG AMENDMENT TO THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968(5)Pre appointment physical exam is required, and annual physicals are required(6)Position is subject to drug testing(7)This position is covered by the Alcohol and Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Program.The incumbent is required to sign a DA Form 5019-R (Condition of Employment for Certain Positions Identified as Critical Under the Drug Abuse Testing Program) and must pass urinalysis testing, as required prior to appointment and periodically thereafter(8)Selectees will be required to obtain a explosives cert, forklift cert and/or respirator certification w/out restrictions.Employer will provide training and help in obtaining certification,but the ability to obtain these certifications is a requirement for employment(9)Heavy lifting of 45+ lbs required(10)Some night shift work is possible(11)DO will have an alternative work week that consist of a Wed thru Saturday work week(12)These are term/intermittent positions(13)Positions will be filled in 1 yr increments,but will not exceed a total of 4 yrs(14)Selections will be made for the Depot Operations Directorate - DO, Ammunition Surveillance Div - DOQ, Storage Division - DOS, and Manufacturing & Engineering Dir - ME.

Ability to do the work of the position under normal supervision.
The experience described in your resume will be evaluated and screened for the Office of Personnel Management's basic qualifications requirements, and the skills needed to perform the duties of this position as described in this vacancy announcement.

Other Information:

To successfully claim veteran's preference, your resume/supplemental data must clearly show your entitlement. Please review the information listed under the Other Requirements link on this announcement or review our on-line Job Application Kit.
Multiple positions will be filled from this announcement.
May require overtime work.
May require shift work and/or work on rotating shifts to provide coverage on evenings, weekends, holidays and in other situations.
The Department of Defense (DoD) policy on employment of annuitants issued March 18, 2004 will be used in determining eligibility of annuitants. The DoD policy is available on http://www.cpms.osd.mil/fas/staffing/pdf/rem_ann.pdf
Schedule tour of duty will require evenings, weekends and holiday work hours.
This position is a TERM position. It is temporary and may be extended up to a maximum of four years.
Permanent Change of Station (PCS) expenses are not authorized.

Other Advantages: Army employees at the Crane Naval Base enjoy other privileges such as use of the Gym, golf course, summer youth care center, cafeteria facilities and club, employee assistance program.

Other Requirements:

Must be able to obtain and maintain a Secret security clearance.
A medical examination is required.
This position is subject to the Lautenberg Amendment/Domestic Violence Misdemeanor Amendment to the Gun Control Act of 1968.
Must comply with Drug Abuse Testing Program requirements.
You will be required to provide proof of U.S. Citizenship.
License/Certification: Explosives Cert and/or Respirator Cert and/or Respirator License
Male applicants born after December 31, 1959 must complete a Pre-Employment Certification Statement for Selective Service Registration.
Direct Deposit of Pay is Required.
Failure to provide all of the required information as stated in the vacancy announcement may result in an ineligible rating or may affect the overall rating.
One year trial/probationary period may be required.

How to Apply:

Resumes must be received by the closing date of this announcement.
Self-nomination must be submitted by the closing date.
Resume must be on file in our centralized database.
Announcements close at 12:00am (midnight) Eastern Time. </i>

It's pretty much an entry level position. My friend was even given information on websites and contacts, to apply for a perm position when he was in orientation. They expect you to move out of this job. So the excuse of me being "over qualified" for the job shouldn't really apply.

quote:

Originally posted by Loredrin:
Thank you for the links. I'll certainly check them out!

One question. Is it normal for GS positions to be filled without any interviews at all? That's the one thing that really stands out from this for me.

I was hired by the Army for a CS job at Fort Benning without an interview in 2005. I was already a GS-11 at the time, so I guess they figured that I had been through a few interviews to get that job and they needed someone quick, so they simply dispensed with the process.

Being told that I don't have a leg to stand on over at

http://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?t=387923&page=4

quote:

No one has shown you anything legal as you say, because there isn't anything illegal about you not getting the job. There isn't a law federal or state that requires an employer private, public or federal to offer employment to the best qualified on paper. Other factors are taken into consideration as cbg and other have stated. You got serious answers and fail to accept them and thats your choice not to accept them, but don't tell very educated and experience professionals that they are wrong or insinuate they are.

Veteran's preference applies to those positions that require a test of some sort and the the VRA is a special authority by which agencies can appoint an eligible veteran without competition, doesn't say they have to.

Basically saying that the links Dave_M gave above don't mean anything at all. And that the Federal government is not required to hire the most qualified person for a position. Even if it is a veteran that's passed over for someone fresh out of high school. (or actually several people just out of high school in this case).

Gotten no positive support/information there at all. So guessing they are right.

Viva la Nepotism I guess.

When vacancies are announced by an agency, selecting officials can fill the position by:

1. Internal promotions or reassignments of existing federal workers;

2. Re-employing former employees;

3. Using approved special purpose noncompetitive appointments such as the VRA, Spouse Preference, and Military Dependent programs; and,

4. Appointing a new employee who has successfully completed an examination. The examination can be either written or an extensive examination of your past work experience and education as listed on a Federal Employment Application.

VETERANS PREFERENCE

When an agency advertises job vacancies through the Office of Personnel Management or locally through direct hire authority the agency must select from the top rated eligible applicants. The official may not pass over a Veterans Preference eligible, however, and appoint a nonpreference eligible lower on the list unless the reasons for passing over the veteran are sufficient.

Veterans preference gives special consideration to eligible veterans looking for federal employment. Veterans who are disabled or who served on active duty in the United States Armed Forces during certain specified time periods or in military campaigns are entitled to preference over nonveterans both in hiring into the federal civil service and in retention during reductions in force. There are two classes of preference for honorably discharged veterans:


You can read the rest here.

http://federaljobs.net/veterans.htm

What Does This Mean?

If you apply for a federal job, your knowledge, skills and abilities will be
rated on a point system. You will receive points for related education, experience, special skills, awards, and written tests if required. The maximum points anyone can accumulate is 100. If an eligible five-point preference candidate accumulates 90 points, five additional points are awarded on preference for a total score of 95. Therefore, the preference veteran, in most cases, must be hired before an agency can hire anyone with less than 95 points in this example. A 10-point preference vet would have a total score of 100.

Hiring preference in civil service examinations is awarded regardless of scores. Qualified veterans with a compensable service-connected disability of 10 percent or more are placed at the top of most civil service examination registers, except for scientific and professional jobs at GS-9 or higher.

A federal agency hiring candidates from an examination list must consider the top three available candidates for each vacancy. An agency may not pass over a candidate with preference and select an individual without preference who has the same or lower score, unless OPM approves the agency's reasons.



5 U.S.C. 3309, 3313 and 5 CFR 332.401 and 337.101

Filling a Position Through the Competitive Examining Process

Announcing the Vacancy

To fill a vacancy by selection through the competitive examining process, the selecting official requests a list of eligibles from the examining office. The examining office must announce the competitive examining process through USAJOBS. OPM will notify the State employment service where the job is being filled. Subsequently, the examining office determines which applicants are qualified, rates and ranks them based on their qualifications, and issues a certificate of eligibles, which is a list of eligibles with the highest scores from the top of the appropriate register. A certificate of eligibles may be used for permanent, term, or temporary appointment.

The "Rule of Three" and Veteran Passovers

Selection must be made from the highest three eligibles on the certificate who are available for the job--the "rule of three." However, an agency may not pass over a preference eligible to select a lower ranking nonpreference eligible or nonpreference eligible with the same or lower score.

Example: If the top person on a certificate is a 10-point disabled veteran (CP or CPS) and the second and third persons are 5-point preference eligibles, the appointing authority may choose any of the three.

Example: If the top person on a certificate is a 10-point disabled veteran (CP or CPS), the second person is not a preference eligible, and the third person is a 5-point preference eligible, the appointing authority may choose either of the preference eligibles. The appointing authority may not pass over the 10-point disabled veteran to select the nonpreference eligible unless an objection has been sustained.

U.S.C. 3312, 3318

Preference Eligibles and the Nepotism Provision

A public official may not advocate a relative for appointment, employment, promotion, or advancement, or appoint, employ, promote, or advance a relative, to a position in an agency in which the public official is employed or over which he or she exercises jurisdiction or control.

This restriction does not, however, prohibit the appointment of a preference eligible whose name is within reach for selection on an appropriate certificate of eligibles when an alternative selection cannot be made from the certificate without passing over the preference eligible and selecting an individual who is not a preference eligible.
http://www.opm.gov/veterans/html/vetguide.asp#2Ajudicat

Thanks for all your help so far Dave_M!

How long should I wait to file a complaint? Is there a deadline/limitation timeline I must meet?

I'd kind of like to wait and see if they do pick me on this 2nd round of posting. I'd hate to file a complaint on the first one now. Then have them call me in on this second posting. As I'm sure it would delay me actually getting to start work.

The only problem is it took them from August till November to close out the first one (and it's actually still not closed out on my CPOL listing even now). Will it take them till May to close this one out?

When the time comes. Who should I send my complaint to? My local VA rep? Or should I file something somewhere else?

I think that there should be some information on the second link IO posted. I will check. I would inquire with the powers that be to find out if this job is one with a preference.

quote:

I would inquire with the powers that be to find out if this job is one with a preference.

Hmm? What do you mean by that?

Since the following:

quote:

To successfully claim veteran's preference, your resume/supplemental data must clearly show your entitlement. Please review the information listed under the Other Requirements link on this announcement or review our on-line Job Application Kit.

is in the Vacancy Announcement doesn't that mean vet pref is "in effect" for this job?

It seems to. Here is the information to file a complaint.

Veterans Complaints

Veterans who believe that they have not been properly accorded their rights have several different avenues of complaint, depending upon the nature of the complaint and the individual's veteran status:

*

The Veterans Employment Opportunities Act of 1998 allows preference eligibles to complain to the Department of Labor's Veterans Employment and Training Service (VETS) when the person believes an agency has violated his or her rights under any statute or regulation relating to veterans' preference.
*

Under a separate Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between OPM and the Department of Labor, eligible veterans seeking employment who believe that an agency has not properly accorded them their Veterans' preference, failed to list jobs with State employment service offices as required by law, or failed to provide special placement consideration noted above, may file a complaint with the local Department of Labor VETS representative (located at State employment service offices). To be eligible to file a complaint under the MOU a veteran must:
o

have served on active duty for more than 180 days and have other than a dishonorable discharge;
o

have a service-connected disability; or
o

if a member of a Reserve component, have been ordered to active duty under sections 12301 (a), (d), or (g) of title 10, United States Code, or served on active duty during a period of war, or received a campaign badge or expeditionary medal (e.g., the Southwest Asia Service Medal).
*

The Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act of 1994 (USERRA) prohibits discrimination in employment, retention, promotion, or any benefit of employment on the basis of a person's service in the uniformed services. Complaints under this law should also be filed with the local Department of Labor VETS representative (located at State employment service offices).
*

Since a willful violation of a provision of law or regulation pertaining to Veterans' preference is a Prohibited Personnel Practice, a preference eligible who believes his or her veterans' preference rights have been violated may file a complaint with the local department of Labor VETS representative, as noted above.
*

A disabled veteran who believes he or she has been discriminated against in employment because of his or her disability may file a handicapped discrimination complaint with the offending agency under regulations administered by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
*

Finally, since OPM is committed to ensuring that agencies carry out their responsibilities to veterans, any veteran with a legitimate complaint may also contact any OPM Service Center.

Because there is considerable overlap in where and on what basis a complaint may be filed, a veteran should carefully consider his or her options before filing. Generally speaking, complaints on the same issue may not be filed with more than one party.

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/vetspref.htm

Well, I can't find the explosives handler position (probably because it is a closed job), but here is what I think might have heppened:

Was there more than 1 listing for the position? An example of this is the Electrician position posted under Job #'s NPC 07-118 and BC-RS-07-118.

The NPC position is listed for "Status Candidates" which a preference eligible Veteran would normally assume they should apply under (which is correct).

The BC-RS position is the SAME job but open for "Public" applicants.

Vets in most, if not all, cases will apply as Status Candidates. They do not realize that the hiring authority can hire off either list, they DO NOT have to use the status list first, then move to the public list.

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS apply on any and all lists that you are eligible for! Status AND Public!

Let me say that again:

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS apply on any and all lists that you are eligible for! Status AND Public!

They can not bypass a preference eligible veteran on any list the preference eligible veteran applies on. You are shooting yourself in the foot if you give them an out by not applying on a list. You most likely saw this happen when the fresh out of High Schoolers were hired...they applied on the Public List, you applied on a Status list, the hiring was done off the Public List, allowing the hiring authority to bypass you.

Let me know if I am correct.

Steve

The job was originally posted in the classifieds of the local newspaper (it was posted both times, first in July and again in November). The ad said to go to the CPOL website and apply there. There was only ONE listing there for explosives handler. (When I re-applied in November there was also only one announcement on the site).

My vet friend and I both applied. We were both called shortly after, and requested to mail in copies of our DD-214s. We did so. Shortly after our status (both mine and his) under the Status Tracking section of the CPOL site changed to:

quote:

2007-07-27 - Your resume has been referred to the selecting official for consideration for this vacancy.

Note: Both mine, and his, STILL says this. Even though he's been working there for a few weeks now.

We then heard nothing till November. When my friend was called in to orientation and a physical. (No interviews given to anyone hired)

Then the same job appears (it was a different vacancy announcement of course) in the paper again in November. I was kinda confused. I called into the number given in the ad. I was told, by the lady there, that the previous list had been "exhausted". And that I would need to apply to this new announcement. I thought "Hmm, how could the list have been exhausted, if I was still on it, from being refered to it?"

Anyway I applied to the new one. And CPOL now says:

quote:

2007-12-14 - Your resume is being reviewed.

for that one (my friend didn't apply since he was already hired).

I saw only one posting both times on the CPOL website.

Would there even be a seperate "Status Candidates" list for a TERM WG-5 position? (Thought it wasn't easy for someone, already working in a permanent GS spot, to move to a TERM/Temporary position unless it was an upgrade?)

Also would there be something some where on the Announcement that would say "Status Candidate" or "Public"? I still have access to both Announcements through Answers. (on the CPOL site) And have already posted the November one in this thread.

I can post the one from July if you want (it's the exact same though except for the Vac # and dates).

Edit: Was filling out my claim tonight. And thinking my claim has solid merit, simply for the fact that they closed out the first roster that I had been refereed to (claiming it was exhausted), without hiring me. There by passing over me by default. Add to that fact, that my status on CPOL still says I'm refereed to it even now!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Loredrin,

Something I had thought of a few days ago. That might explain why this happened.

Back in late August or September. I heard from a friend. Not the same one in my post, but another that I don't know as well. Who also happens to work there. That they were bringing people straight in from our local Visteon plant (which is shutting down here in 6 months). I had also heard this from a relative, that knows a lot of other people working at the base.

Since there were two reliable sources I contacted our VA rep here. To see if he knew anything about it. Or might be able to find out. He said that he had heard nothing about it. But would check into it for me. I heard nothing back from him after that.

I figured he either thought I was a loon and blew me off. Or didn't find anything and just forgot about it.

But I'm thinking if he did contact HR on base. And for whatever reason dropped my name. Then someone there thought "Well if he's gonna question how we're hiring, then he's not gonna get a job." Outside of someone there not liking me (I don't know anyone in HR, or don't know if I do anyway). That is the only way I can think of that I'd be purposely passed over.

As I've said several times. I really, really, really hope that this was just some kind of clerical error. Hate to think that someone there dislikes me so much they would risk their job. Or is arrogant enough that they thought no one would speak up (or my fear, figured that DoL wouldn't touch them at all).

To SgtWilk,

quote:

They can not bypass a preference eligible veteran on any list the preference eligible veteran applies on. You are shooting yourself in the foot if you give them an out by not applying on a list. You most likely saw this happen when the fresh out of High Schoolers were hired...they applied on the Public List, you applied on a Status list, the hiring was done off the Public List, allowing the hiring authority to bypass you.

If I'd applied to a status vacancy I'd not have gotten referred right? Since I'm not a federal employee (requirement for getting referred to a status listed job). Since I was referred then that should mean, without a doubt, that it was a public announcement. (I've not "bought back" my military service. Which is the only way it can can count as federal service time.)