This is for vets or anyone wondering about civil service and the frustrations that go along with it.
This is my theory. I am retired USAF and currently have a civil service job so I can speak from a little experience.
First of all the military departments are a little different than other federal agencies like DHS or IRS or VA. I would say it is a lot harder to land a job in a military dept if you don't have inside help. Why? Because there is always someone retiring or separating from the military, thus most good jobs (GS-7 and up) are those in which "they have sombody in mind". Sound familiar? It's true, I was one of the lucky ones who was hired based on qualifications. But I would say 80 percent or more of the military dept jobs fall into the "they have someone in mind" category. However in the other fedearl agencies it seems this isn't the case so often.
I had quite a few peers that thought a GS-5 position was a waste of time, had their sights set way too high (GS-9 or 11) and struggled to get into civil service. So I guess the point is if you don't understand all the referred not selected responses your getting maybe this will shed some light. Keep in mind that there are a lot of federal agencies and once you are in you are in and can transfer to get where you want, just have to be patient and network like crazy!
In the DC area, I've seen people retire one week and come back the next week as a civilian in the same job or at least the same office. I retired 2 years ago and have been teaching at a career college. I enjoy teaching, but have applied for government jobs since leaving active duty. Some of the jobs I've put in for were things I did as an E-5. The response back every time has been that I'm not qualified. Yesterday I got a call to come in for an interview. The first in 2 years. This job also has duties that I did as an E-5. But I'll take it if hired. It starts at GS-9 plus retired E-8 over 26 pay should get me by. It's also a foot in the door.
Awesome! That foot in the door is the thing almost everyone is looking for. It got me where I am. I also get a lot of not qualified responses, but of course that is just me not meeting the KSAs. When I was getting ready to submit my retirement paperwork in 2004 one of my E-7 co-workers on the ACC HQ staff told me that civil service is a "mafia". I now know what he was talking about. Some of the people who read this will wonder, what the hell is he talking about he has a govt job? I'm just shedding some light on my experiences, trust me it's difficult to get that foot in the door for a lot of people and I know it.
Let's keep discussing it, some of you who are looking at civil service go ahead and chime in on this?
You never know who out there you may meet may help you out, I meet a lot of people and deal with people around the U.S.
Why are all the resume builders and real resume assistance aimed at Officers and high rank. Does anyone out there understand that we have young trrops getting out of the military that just want an opportunity to get a decent job. My son will ETS in August and is scared of having to flip burgers or pizzas. He wants a job with Homeland Security but, he has been provided very few skills from his Army tour of duty. He was air defense in S. Korea and sent to Iraq as a grunt. No resume information assistance for these folks. No wonder so many have problems getting into Fed Civil Service. theemperor
There are a lot of jobs with education requirements. I know there are also a lot of jobs a person could qualify for with vet preference, writing to the KSAa, and having a security clearance. Most separating from the military have the clearance and vet pref in hand.
It would be a good idea to research TA on-line and any other transition assistance provided by users on this site (vet reps) and really dig into how to position a federal resume that will get "referred" by the HR staff. Most of the fed HR staffs use an automated system like resumix or stairs to evaluate the resume, so writing to the KSAs is critical...otherwise the resume will never make it to the top of the certificate, if at all.
The competition for a federal job is brutal, so you almost have to focus on just getting in (GS-4,5,6...). There are of course exceptions, and people do step right into a great job.
When I retired from the USAF in 2004 I was hired for a GS-5 position. There were 60 names on the hiring managers certificate...did I get lucky? Probably.
It really depends on what type of job you are applying for. If it is a job where 9 million other people share your same skillset, then sure, its going to be competitive.
However, I can say from experience, as Ive gotten two job offers, one from the Army Corps of Engineers and the other from Bureau of Reclamation, there are jobs for prior-military types, IF you have skills they are looking for.
I too am retired, 22 years Army> Retired in 1990 as an E-8. After retirement I went into the hospitality industry and was quite successful in Hotel Management, leaving that industry three years ago as a Regional Vice President of Operations to get into business for myself. But, the only reason I was able to break into the industry was pure luck. I accidentally ran across an ad in the newspaper run by some nut who owned a hotel and his key to a successful operation was to hire an ex military person to kick employee A__! Trust me it was hard finding work, just about everyone views a retired military person as fat, dumb and Verrry lazy. After all of these years I have gotten a little sentimental and thought it would be nice to get a government job with the Army MWR as a Hotel Manager. Easy, right, 22 years Army, 12 years Hotel Management. No way. Approximately two dozen apps later and not a thing. Some one out there tell me who could have more experience for the job than what I just explained? They always seem to find some one more qualified. I must have been out of my mind to want to work for the government. It's full of imbeciles and I do not want any part of it. I'll keep plugging along with my little business.
Here's what I've discovered based on my experience. I'm a 23 year retired Army 1SG and I took the time to do two things before I retired. First, I studied the Civil Service systems (DOD, DHS, VA, DOJ, etc.) to get a working knowledge of how each particular one works. They are very different in their own right and having knowledge of them helps tremendously. Second, I got an education. It's very easy to become complacent in the military where there are virtually "no worries". Three hots, a cot and a pay check. What a concept! What you have to keep in mind is the future and plan for the day you take off the uniform. Plan your work, and work your plan. Develop your communication skills, both oral and writting before you have to present them to someone. Learn how to market yourself. Identify your strengths and weaknesses and work on improving in both areas. In most cases your military training means you are honest, dependable, disciplined, of good moral character, and experienced. Exploit these qualities and traits. I've also discovered that the chronological resume format does not work for former senior military leaders who are applying for civil service jobs; it's focus is too narrow. The Resumix format is more suited because the paragraph format allows you to expound on your experience. These positions are not going to just fall into your lap because you have a DD214 that says you did a good job - you still have to do the math. It's all about your ability to market yourself and if someone else does a better of it than you then they will get the job.
That is good advice, almost universal advice I would say. So what do we say to a guy or gal who has prepared well (education, transition classes, resume writing workshops, networking)for transition and still is having trouble getting that foot in the door? I would say just stay focused, keep researching, and don't give up. Also, DO NOT just apply from your computer and then sit back, get on the phone and network and if your in the area you want to work then go talk to people face to face.
That's about all I can really say on this in a general sense, but we can talk more about the specifics of federal resumes and KSAs if anyone wants??
Originally posted by 9563265: I too am retired, 22 years Army> Retired in 1990 as an E-8. After retirement I went into the hospitality industry and was quite successful in Hotel Management, leaving that industry three years ago as a Regional Vice President of Operations to get into business for myself. But, the only reason I was able to break into the industry was pure luck. I accidentally ran across an ad in the newspaper run by some nut who owned a hotel and his key to a successful operation was to hire an ex military person to kick employee A__! Trust me it was hard finding work, just about everyone views a retired military person as fat, dumb and Verrry lazy. After all of these years I have gotten a little sentimental and thought it would be nice to get a government job with the Army MWR as a Hotel Manager. Easy, right, 22 years Army, 12 years Hotel Management. No way. Approximately two dozen apps later and not a thing. Some one out there tell me who could have more experience for the job than what I just explained? They always seem to find some one more qualified. I must have been out of my mind to want to work for the government. It's full of imbeciles and I do not want any part of it. I'll keep plugging along with my little business.
Although you're coming off a bit harsh, you're going to be better off working for yourself. Your biggest challenges will be a) dealing with the government's laws (but OSHA and Taxes aren't really every day...) and b) keeping the customer happy. Never deal with some junior officer with entitlement issues, never deal with some weird regulation or any of the other seemingly weird things that go on in the DoD. There are days that I look back and see those inflated pay checks and huge amounts of time off and want them back, but what I'm doing now is making me happy, and I make my own decisions. Who could want anything more? Keep plugging!
I'd like more info on KSAs and federal resumes. I too, have experienced a "perfect fit" for a position, only to find someone else hired in the job. My skills are quite unique (combination of healthcare, operations, and aviation - and I'm an MBA) so it amazes me that I'd don't even get so much as a phone call. What gives?
quote:
Originally posted by AFSOC_CATM: That is good advice, almost universal advice I would say. So what do we say to a guy or gal who has prepared well (education, transition classes, resume writing workshops, networking)for transition and still is having trouble getting that foot in the door? I would say just stay focused, keep researching, and don't give up. Also, DO NOT just apply from your computer and then sit back, get on the phone and network and if your in the area you want to work then go talk to people face to face.
That's about all I can really say on this in a general sense, but we can talk more about the specifics of federal resumes and KSAs if anyone wants??
Hey, there is a site I think you should check out. federalsoup.com
That web-site is a discussion site for fed/civil service employees. There may be some good discussion about KSA's right now.
Anyway, my take on KSA's is that if your resume does not speak to them you might not get referred. I always look at the KSA's first then target my resume accordingly. Yep, it means you will have to re-write your resume a hundred times, but that's what it takes. I also have a varied experience background, so you have to focus your experience and use whats revelant to the position your seeking. I know when we were Senior Non-Commissioned Officers (SNCOs) in the military the broad range of experience was a plus...but not so much so when it comes to federal positions. The referral is based on KSA's for a particular "standard core document" (describes the position), vet pref, and time in grade (current fed employees).
I did my 4 yrs active in the Infantry, went to college for Criminial Justice, got a BA, then could not even get a job as a parole officer. I ended up working in some craphole federal halfway house. While I was there, this little blonde girl ended up getting hired for one of the parole officer jobs I had applied to. I was pissed.
Bottom line...you better meet someone's racial/gender quota for a gov job. And that is no joke. If you are a white male, you are screwed.
Also, I'd like to add that a four year Criminal Justice degree is as useful as toilet paper.
I ended up getting into computer networking and programming. I got mad certified and now make a very decent paycheck. I also do a lot of freelance remote sidework for businesses all over America. My advice for those wanting to get into IT is to learn all the product lines from one vendor and become the best at them. The money is in supporting Cisco or Microsoft products. You don't have to know everything about everything out there. Just be the "GO TO" guy for one product line/vendor. You can pick up a lot of loyal customers (if you fix their stuff) at places like rentacoder.com to get started.
Here's an update on my entry above. I went to the interview and thought I nailed it. I haven't received a call back or an offer so I don't think I got the job. Maybe it's for the best. I'm the senior instructor at a career college and I really enjoy it. The money isn't bad and I have great co-workers.
I know what you mean, sometimes I think an interview is just set-up to make hiring look fair. I don't know what else can be said about his topic, but there are some really good posts about this on federalsoup.com I think the best source of info about civil service comes from those who are in the system now.
It would be cool to hear more stories (good and bad) from other people about their experiences with fed hiring. Anyone have anything to add?
Hiring is hard, being promoted is almost impossible. The largest civilian government agency hired two retired military types: one was a Command Master Chief, the other was a Captain (50+ years combined service), proven leadership, dedication and education was a must. The Agency relied on "Non Vets" who married, was mothered into the company, or came up from under the table to be a high level manager..."26-years-old, blond, silicone, high school diploma". Compare those qualifications to commanding 1,200 plus men, participated in two wars,and graduate degrees. Silicone, friends and mistresses always get the promotion. Then, the vet asks why, is labeled a troublemaker and is "blacklisted" from ANY promotion. Oh, in California and the border states, politics and race play an important factor, and the government plays along with the percentages. Where did the best man or woman for the job go?... he or she left the government agency with a reduced retirement and went fishing... commanding a 12 foot wooden boat. Far cry from a Nuclear Sub or a Cruiser, when sorting mail required so much higher qualifications.
While we were doing mil-civ conversions at Camp Lejeune, the big boss told those (military types) that were doing all the work that he'd prefer to hire them first because of their efforts and their experience. He wanted to give those who were retiring or getting out an opportunity if they were interested. I was one of the lucky ones. While still on active duty, I had to write the position description for the job I now have and get it approved and classified by OPM. It didn't hurt the hiring process having 30 years in the service and being rated 70 percent disabled.
Right now, there is a hiring freeze. For those that go from uniform one day and civil service the next already have something worked out prior to walking out of the door. I speak from experience because I have seen this first hand. Although it is not entirely legal it is for a fact done. Mostly officers have the luck because they take care of their own. With enlisted good luck...
