I've been trying to figure this one out for a few months now, and am having no luck at all. Here's the story behind it:

about a year ago, a junior guy in my division was at his submarine pin qual board, and was asked "what are the names of the two dolphins on the warfare pin?" He had no clue, and at the time, neither did I. I mentioned it to my wife, and she (on her own) searched online for 3 hours and actually found the answer. He checked with the board members and they agreed. Several other chiefs on baord concurred as well with the names "Pollux and Castor" (aka the gemini twins).

Now, here's my problem. Ever since then, nobody I know seems to know WHERE the two dolphins are ever mentioned as to having names. Some even say it was an "urban legend."

Does anyone out there happen to know this? My guess is some kind of Naval History and Traditions book, but I'm stumped.

Any help is appreciated.

V/R
MM1(SS) Brandon MacDonald

I have a question too...why do the Dolphins have scales?

...Aren't they mammals?

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I have a question too...why do the Dolphins have scales?

Those dolphins are indeed fish, think Mahi Mahi.

The forehead breathers a mammels , think Flipper.

Some where in an OLD issue of ALL HANDS there was an information piece on the origin of the submarine insignia. Will keep an eye out as I dig thru for other obscure stuff from time to time. Found it, it is the Jan 1961 issue, pg 47
http://www.navy.mil/allhands.asp
Actually picked up from these boards that the SEABEES have a name for the bulldozer on the EO rating badge.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mastersmate,

Poseidon, Greek god of the sea: Historically, dolphins always linked to Poseidon in some fashion. For instance, dolphins drove Poseidon's chariot around oceans; dolphins were his personal messengers and ran errands for him, etc.

While don't have any idea if the brothers had anything to do with dolphins, they sound a bit like submariners.

The DIOSCURI are the twin brothers Castor 1 and Polydeuces ("Castor and Pollux"). These brothers were most affectionate: they never strove in rivalry for the leadership, and they never acted without consulting each other, which is a distinctive mark of real brotherhood.

Poseidon gave them the power to aid shipwrecked men, stilling winds and waves. The DIOSCURI were still alive when the seducer Paris abducted their sister Helen, but they had already left this world when the Trojan War broke out.

Web site www.aboutsubs.com Includes below info about several boats, history/photos of various Dolphin badges/pins.

"DOLPHINS" - the Submariner's Insignia

"Life is simple - either you're qualified or you're not!"

History of the Submarine Dolphins

The insignia of the U.S. submarine service is a submarine flanked by two dolphins. Dolphins, attendants to the Poseidon, Greek god of the sea and patron deity to sailors, is sometimes referred to as the sailor's friend. They were also chosen to represent the Submarine Service because of the characteristic way in which dolphins dive and surface.

On 13 June 1923, Captain E. J. King, Commander, Submarine Division Three (later Fleet Admiral and Commander in Chief, U.S. Fleet, during WW II), suggested to the Secretary of the Navy via the Bureau of Navigation (now known as BuPers) that a distinguishing device for qualified submariners be adopted. He submitted a pen-and-ink sketch of his own showing a shield mounted on the beam ends of a submarine, with dolphins forward of, and abaft, the conning tower. The suggestion was strongly endorsed by Commander Submarine Division Atlantic.

Over the next several months the Bureau of Navigation solicited additional designs from several sources. Some combined a submarine with a shark motif. Others showed submarines and dolphins, and still others used a shield design.

A Philadelphia firm, Bailey, Banks & Biddle (BB&B), which had done work in the field of Naval crests, was approached by the Bureau of Navigation with the request that it design a suitable badge. Two designs were submitted by the firm, one of which was the 1926 class crest from the Naval Academy.

These two designs were combined into a single concept. It was a starboard angle on the bow view of an "O" class submarine, proceeding on the surface, with bow planes rigged for diving, flanked by dolphins in a horizontal position with their heads resting on the upper edge of the bow planes. On 20 March 1924, the Chief of the Bureau of Navigation recommended to the Secretary of the Navy that the design be adopted. The recommendation was accepted by Theodore Roosevelt, Jr., Acting Secretary of the Navy. His acceptance is dated March 1924.

Today the original BB&B design is used by many manufactures without modification, while others choose to take some artistic license, especially in updating the class of submarine depicted.

The submarine insignia was to be worn at all times by officers and men qualified in submarine duty attached to submarine units or organizations, ashore and afloat, and not to be worn when not attached.

In 1941 the Uniform Regulations were modified to permit officers and men qualified who were eligible to wear the submarine insignia after they had been assigned to other duties in the naval service, unless such right had been revoked.

The officers' insignia was a gold metal pin (gold plating over "sterling" silver, or bronze), worn centered above the left breast pocket and above the ribbons and medals.

Enlisted men wore the insignia, embroidered in silk, white silk for blue clothing and blue silk for white clothing. This was sewn on the outside of the right sleeve, midway between the wrist and elbow. The device was two and three-quarters inches long.

In 1943, the Uniform Regulations were modified to provide that: "Enlisted men, who are qualified and subsequently promoted to commissioned or warrant ranks, may wear enlisted submarine insignia on the left breast until they qualify as submarine officers, at which time this insignia would be replaced by the officers' submarine pin."

In mid-1947, the embroidered device shifted from the sleeve of the enlisted men's jumper to above the left breast pocket. On 21 September 1950, a change to the Uniform Regulations authorized officers the option of either a gold bullion embroidered sew-on insignia, or gold plated pin-on insignia.

Enlisted submariners were given the option of either a silver bullion embroidered sew-on insignia, or a "sterling" silver (or silver plated), metal pin-on insignia for the dress uniform. This was in addition to the silk embroidered insignia sewn on the undress uniform.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: nancybonar,

Mahi-Mahi are fish and not dolphins, but they are nicknamed the dolphin fish.

Now we all know is that Captain E.J.King sketched the original insignia with a shield mounted on the beams of a submarine with two dolphins forward and aft of the conning tower. This was in 1923.

A Midshipman Second Class by the name of William Crawford Eddy drew up a pair of blunt nose dolphins engaging a pair of anchors which flanked a zero-bow. That was in 1926.

A Philadelphia firm that did some works for the Navy for Academy rings submitted two designs that became combined to form the submarine insignia. A bow view of a submarine proceeding on the surface with bow planes rigged for diving, flanked by dolphins in a horizontal position with their heads resting on the upper edge of the bow planes.

As far as mythology lore, the dolphins are considered attendants to Poseidon (the Greek God of the sea) and patron deity’s of sailors. They symbolize calm seas and are considered “sailor’s friend”. Dolphins are also known to guide the souls of the underworld as well as the saviors of the shipwrecked. Two dolphins also symbolize “god is crossing the sea”.

I can’t seem to find a direct reference of Castor and Pollux related to the dolphins. Only close thing I can find related to the dolphin is Alpha & Beta (Sualocin Delphini & Rotanev Delphini) as part two stars in the Delphinus (Dolphin) constellation.

Delphinus helped persuade Amphitrite to be Poseidon’s Queen. In honor of his deed, Poseidon put Delphinus in the heavens.

Alpha & Beta (Sualocin Delphini & Rotanev Delphini) are the two brightest stars of this constellation.

As far as Castor and Pollux, I have found a little bit on the Gemini Twins. They are famous for the protectors and saviors of mariners. It was known that Castor and Pollux where invoked by sailors against shipwrecks. Some call the phenomenon, St Elmo’s Fire.

Castor & Pollux are supposedly, astrologically speaking, in a position to rescue those in peril on the sea.

I haven’t found anything that directly fits Castor & Pollux or Alpha & Beta to our Phins, but I would pick Castor & Pollux to be the names for the two dolphins by my own assumptions.

http://www.ocean.udel.edu/mas/seafood/mahi.html

Check out that link. Actually I read one time that resturant owners found using the name Mahi Mahi was a better selling point after the TV show Fipper was popular. People got confused between the mammal and the fish. Yes there is a fish called a Dolphin and a mammal that is also called a Dolphin. Confusing huh?

I had never heard of naming the fish on the warfare pin. Darn where is Cap'n Mack when we need his knowledge.

Taken from Navy History, Customs, etc. within Navy forum on military.com in response to mcdonald question posted there

----------------------

---Warfare pin???... , Oh Please!! According to:

http://buperscd.technology.navy.mil/bup_updt/508/unireg/chapter5/CHAPTER_5.htm

Chapter 5, Section 2. WARFARE AND OTHER QUALIFICATION INSIGNIA..5201.2

It states that "Dolphins" are now referred to officially as just another "pogue" "Warfare Badge". I'm sure glad all my official documentation of when I qualified in Submarines back on 21May1972 states that I was awarded the "Enlisted Submarine Qualification Badge"... In today’s PC Navy I’m surprised that they are even allowed to call them "Dolphins".

It is so saddens me that over the past 30+ years the Navy has gotten caught up in the same “Disease” that over came the Air Force, Army and USCG, where everyone no matter what gets all kinds of meaningless “nose bleed ribbons” and goofy scare badges for doing the minimums. God Bless the U.S.M.C. for sticking with their originals awards and not getting caught up in the “Idi Amin Dada Syndrome” of superfluous ribbons and excess meaningless scare badges. Harsh words on my part? Perhaps. And I know I will probably get tons of SABOT rounds to the chest as a result of my posting, but just my own personal observations gained in a 27+ year military career and confirmed while working as a DOD Civilian over the last few years.

Actually this whole Navy “Scare Badge Thing” started down hill back in 1948 when the Navy moved the “Enlisted Submarine Qualification Badge” from the lower right arm sleeve of the jumper to the chest as in the fashion worn by officers. And it really got on the fast track with the introduction of the SW Badge, (Sorry GAGE ME!!!!!) PUKE!!!!.... Oh well, Just one old Soldier/Sailor's opinion, no more, no less.

As I said earlier, God Bless the U.S.M.C. for still being the last of the "holdouts"...

Sounds about right , tho the best marines a submarine .

Nancy, Thank You for posting my words here, the ones I posted under the Naval History, Traditions, Customs and Ceremonies Thread. I may have come off as to Hard Core to some and certainly did not mean to cast aspersions towards all those Submarineers who have become qualified since the explosion and spread of all those "Pogue" warfare badges. For me personally I find if demeaning to lump the "Officer or Enlisted Submarine Qualification Badge" into the general pool of all those other pretentious "warfare badges". I guess I'm just too much of a traditionalist.

And nhegge

quote:

Originally posted by nhegge:
Sounds about right , tho the best marines a submarine .

I could not concur more.. Actually I know of a situation where a member of the USMC did become "Qualified in Submarines" for real earning him a set of Silver Dolphins, back during the cold war days... But that is another story... AS told by one of the First Navigators on the very first 637 class SSN commissioned

I believe one of the spook babysitters who rode with us was qualed . He were a bit twisted

quote:

Originally posted by nhegge:
I believe one of the spook babysitters who rode with us was qualed . He were a bit twisted

neheege,
I see you are a USSVI member also, Good!..(Wish more people here were).

Anyway, one of the things I like to do is log onto the USSVI website. Then plug in the hull number of selected older boats, the SSRs and older SSNs. When the boat’s USSVI member crew list comes up it is surprising what you will find. There are not many, but more than a few CTs, and RDs (Radarman, but nowadays called OS, just a little factoid for the younger crowd) show up who became SS qualified. Heck there is even one DS, (Data Systems Technician). There's one spook rider CPO(SS)(Ret) who rode a ton of SSNs during his career. Of course some probably went on to be Spook CWOs and LDOs also.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: IC2SS19Z50C5,

I always enjoyed the Rides who qualified.

They many times went into it thinking it would be easy, and that the crew would go easy on them.

"I need it to make Second (Or First Class, Chief)"

Then, most of them flamed out.

The ones that stayed with it found themselves BECOMING one of us. It was cool.

They went from being a guest to being one of us, to the point where it was heart aching to see them go when they got their fish. We made them EARN it, with a vengeance. And after that, they seemed really attached to us, no matter where they went.

Good guys.

Monteil (sp) Williams, USNA, was a spook, including on subs, until he left Navy to spend more time with family. Mentions some of this in his book.

quote:

about a year ago, a junior guy in my division was at his submarine pin qual board, and was asked "what are the names of the two dolphins on the warfare pin?"

Argh, pet peeve of mine, but are people still asking useless crap like this on boards? Like "what's the Captain's cross-connect" (Answer- "How about you use the actual name of the valve as it appears in the SIB or the piping TAB, and then I'll tell you?") Draw trim and drain, and show me you can don and light off an OBA without offing yourself, and run a fire hose, now isn't that the point of an SS board?

quote:

Originally posted by 6857258:

quote:

about a year ago, a junior guy in my division was at his submarine pin qual board, and was asked "what are the names of the two dolphins on the warfare pin?"

Argh, pet peeve of mine, but are people still asking useless crap like this on boards? Like "what's the Captain's cross-connect" (Answer- "How about you use the actual name of the valve as it appears in the SIB or the piping TAB, and then I'll tell you?") Draw trim and drain, and show me you can don and light off an OBA without offing yourself, and run a fire hose, now isn't that the point of an SS board?

BRAVO ZULU LT, Great comment!!! You know When this thread originally started your above comments were parallel to my initial thoughts also. But since it has been 33 years ago since “setting the maneuvering watch”, I figured I’d pass on saying anything. Never did we ever have to answer any such meaningless drivel type questions. They were always duty related and system specific. Period.

Questions such as the one above remind me very much of the old Soldier of the Year board type questions that would be asked of junior and senior NCOs. Like what is the little ball at the top of the post flag pole???... Meaningless, totally meaningless!!!... I’m of the opinion that a certain amount of professional reading could be woven into the on going onboard quals program after someone has become qualified in Submarines. But a nautical trivia factoid such as the one above could be provided in a basic handout when someone checks into BESS at Groton or a nice artistic plaque on a wall in one of the Sub School buildings. Just one old Soldier/Sailor's opinion, no more no less.

I am glad I'm not the only one that thinks that everyone ought to have some kind of "badge" on he left chest. I remember getting to be (SS) in 1960 I walked around with a port list for some time because I was so proud to be wearing the best looking uniform item ever invented (and of course the dolphins had been "pinned" on by every qualfied member of the crew)I really don't like the surface warfare thing it just look to much like mine. But then there have always been "wannabes"

Smoke Boat Joe