I would like to know people's opinions on PT under black flag conditions (and PLEASE limit it to that - the general PT discussion is a well beaten, dead horse). I ask because we were PT'd under black flag today and I'd like to know how others would handle the situation. During PT, it was announced over the radio and our MSgt. responded that he copied, yet we continued. Then the big voice over the whole base announced it...and we continued. Then the actual flag in the training area was finally changed from red to black...and we continued. Ten minutes after the first notification, we finally began cool-down stretches. It's only more ironic that we're losing our down Friday tomorrow for squadron training because people can't follow the rules & lack integrity, yet the MTLs PT us under black flag. Everyone talks about it being 130 in Iraq. I get that and I'll follow the SOP over there when I'm over there. But SOP here is no PT under black flag - it's a safety issue. Considering this is the second time this week we've continued after the initial announcement, I'm on the verge of reporting it but being a fresh-faced A1C, I'd like input from those of you who have BTDT. Thanks!

My opinion -
I was in Iraq during summer. It was HOT.
We had no black flag conditions.
The war didn't stop because it was hot.
PT didn't stop. I usually ran about 7PM (it was "cooler" but not dark. I'd never go out for a run after dark there. THAT is a true safety condition)

I think we're too coddled in the AF sometimes.

Safety is a good thing, but to many times, people use it as a crutch or an excuse. People twisted their ankles on rocks in Iraq running for cover during morter attacks. Nobody yelled "black flag" or "time out" or "SAFETY!!"

You're not even out of Tech School yet and already complaining -- and thinking of "telling"

You need to learn to pick your battles wisely. To determine which ones are worth fighting, takes experience. You survived PT in black flag conditions, obviously.

I don't say this often, but "suck it up". There are bigger things out there to complain about.
But that's just my opinion, and you asked.



It seams to me that you're only whining because you're losing your "day off" on Friday.
Welcome to the AF.

Sounds like good advice from a shirt, it's like my chief with less making fun of the airman.

As for doing PT in black flag - it may seem bad at the time, but most of the bad crap you're doing now you can reflect upon later and say "man, that sucked but look at me now!" or something about building character.

I joined not too long ago (not so fresh faced airman) knowing that if I get what I want it's because the Air Force wants it that way or doesn't care enough to change it, and anything beyond that is luck or a blessing. I'm "operational" (figured tech school would use that term, we used to) and my squadron had ultimate frisbee or football fridays, but when we merged with a different squadron that changed to 5k runs every friday. Not that great, but you've gotta go with the flow - especially when you're on the bottom. Going to an "optional" 5k run tomorrow way too early in the morning, not that big of a deal.

Just remember that when you're in basic, tech, or in training that you're not going to have that much input. It'll be that way for a while, don't worry about it.

Your post states that you started your cool down 10 minutes after the black flag notification was given. It sounds like you were probably reaching the end of your scheduled PT. (I thought it was PC, but that was a long time ago.)

Your TI probably heard the notification and decided that since you only had another 10 minutes, he may just as well go ahead and finish. If the notification had been given and you had continued for another hour, that would cause some concern.

Seriously, 10 minutes of PT in the heat is no cause for complaining. Things will get a lot hotter if you deploy to the sand box.

If you feel you were seriously mistreated, you have a chain of command, but don't expect a warm reception.

Just about all has been said that should be said about this subject. The only thing i can think of is if you are in training at Keesler or one of the bases in Texas, there will not be to many times during the dead middle of the summer where you wont see black flag conditions. What do you expect to just not do PT two or three times a week because it is hot? Trust me you will see worse than a thirty minute PT session in black flag conditions. Try adding IBA to the mix and oh wait a weapon/ammo.

Like Nike says "Just Do It."

Kris- You're going to run into the rare jerk like the PTL MSgt during your career. He's a very bad example for airmen fresh out of basic who are steeped in the Core Values thing. I don't understand why he would disobey orders so publicly. This is pretty apalling.

I'm not sure what you can do about it, other than gripe to your flight mates.

First, I realize I made a mistake in the above post when I referred to your TI. I re-read it and realized you aren't at BMT. Sorry for the mistake.

For those posters who feel the situation was somehow abusive... What was the MSgt supposed to do? Treat the black flag announcement like an air raid warning and immediately hustle everyone under cover?

I mean really, they PT'd for 10 minutes after the announcement was made?

TEN MINUTES!

Be reasonable.

Out of curiosity, is there a rule or reg that states the limit on time to cease activity after the announcement? After black flag is called, is everyone supposed to quit immediately? Within 5 minutes, 10, 15?

quote:

Originally posted by UWWomanRugger:
I would like to know people's opinions on PT under black flag conditions (and PLEASE limit it to that - the general PT discussion is a well beaten, dead horse). I ask because we were PT'd under black flag today and I'd like to know how others would handle the situation. During PT, it was announced over the radio and our MSgt. responded that he copied, yet we continued. Then the big voice over the whole base announced it...and we continued. Then the actual flag in the training area was finally changed from red to black...and we continued. Ten minutes after the first notification, we finally began cool-down stretches. It's only more ironic that we're losing our down Friday tomorrow for squadron training because people can't follow the rules & lack integrity, yet the MTLs PT us under black flag. Everyone talks about it being 130 in Iraq. I get that and I'll follow the SOP over there when I'm over there. But SOP here is no PT under black flag - it's a safety issue. Considering this is the second time this week we've continued after the initial announcement, I'm on the verge of reporting it but being a fresh-faced A1C, I'd like input from those of you who have BTDT. Thanks!

Hey "fresh-faced A1C" go ahead and lodge a complaint, see how far it gets you. Get real and get a grip, you're in the Military and there are a few things that you're just gonna have to grow up and accept and expect.

Good luck!

You guys should give it a rest. She's an honor graduate from Basic. Most of you **** and moan about officers at every turn, and now here's an example of senior NCOs "eating their young" on a message board.

The weather office advises the CC on the weather conditions, and he tells the squadrons to halt PT. He doesn't mean "when the Master Sergeant feels like it." He means NOW.

The pussification of America continues.....

If Black flag means NO PT Then the MTL should of went to cool down right after he heard the announcement.

Plain and simple.

It doesnt matter how hot it is in Iraq or how cold it is in Alaska. But has everything to do with a MTL refusing to follow SOP.

In Basic Training MTI's were sure to follow the flag colors to a T. At least in the 10 months i was their and observed them.

Their will always be bad apples. So use your chain of command and if you feel nothing will get done Then go to IG.

You will be fighting an uphill battle which in the end will probably not change anything.
But then again they might get around to speaking to the MTL to ensure it doesnt happen again.

Good luck.


Lotta jerks in the world. The AF is no different.

That sounds fine with me. 10 minutes is nothing. The work rest cycle for black flag is 20 minutes work, 40 minuts rest with 1 1/2 quarts of water an hour. Those 10 minutes fell into the 20 minutes of work. Thats also meant to be in uniform, not PT gear (shorts and t-shirt). So going by that it seems more than reasonable to finish up PT.

Hell, when black flag is announced in and of itself it takes 30 minutes for word to reach around base. Not to mention that weather takes periodic measurements, they dont sit and stare at the thermometer, nor do they have an alarm system that beeps wildly when the temperature reaches 90 degrees. Most of the time when black flag is announced it's been black flag conditions for about an hour already.

it seems this quesiton is going to be split in half with half the folks saying it should have stopped immediatly with and the other half thinking this was more than fine.

I am in the later group. This is why the other services laugh at the AF.

Aside from whining or complaining and "it's hot in Iraq so you can't say anything" Here's a simple thing I learned. If you want to fall out then ask. Your Msgt might have been waiting for someone to take a stand. He might have just been pushing everyone's limits to see how much everyone could take...who knows. All I know is people tend to say that Field training for AF officers is a bit of a joke (not to far from the truth); we couldn't PT under black flag "for a certain period of time" so that our bodies could get acclimated (about 1 week) after that anything goes.
Know your limits, do what you can to push them. If there are those that continually can't hack to physical part of the military because of a "debilitating condition" then they'll most likely be taken out. But I promise it'll get easier, hang in there.

Get your sweat on!!!!! I guess when someone in your PT group passes out from heat exhaustion and a higher up finds up it was during "Black Flag" than I guess something can be made out of it. other than that, if you feel compelled by Core Values than let someone know about the said MTL.

quote:

Originally posted by Bmtking:
If Black flag means NO PT Then the MTL should of went to cool down right after he heard the announcement.

Plain and simple.

It doesnt matter how hot it is in Iraq or how cold it is in Alaska. But has everything to do with a MTL refusing to follow SOP.

In Basic Training MTI's were sure to follow the flag colors to a T. At least in the 10 months i was their and observed them.

Their will always be bad apples. So use your chain of command and if you feel nothing will get done Then go to IG.

You will be fighting an uphill battle which in the end will probably not change anything.
But then again they might get around to speaking to the MTL to ensure it doesnt happen again.

Good luck.


Lotta jerks in the world. The AF is no different.

Little off subject, but why the F would you be in BMT for 10 months?

Check your local OI or MAJCOM SUP but here you go to get you started. Sounds like your PTL knew what he was doing...AFI10-248

2.3.2.1. Consult AF Pamphlet 48-151, Thermal Injury, regarding procedures to prevent heat and
cold injury. Physical conditioning conducted in PT uniform (shorts and t-shirt) may be performed
continuously up to 1 hour in all but black flag heat condition. Limit PT in black flag heat conditions to 20-40 minutes of continuous activity. These guidelines are based on a single, isolated training event.

quote:

Originally posted by jpratt0826:
Little off subject, but why the F would you be in BMT for 10 months?

319th Training Squadron.

He must have gotten sick or broke something and was sent there for most of BMT.

I was there when I had to go to Fit Flight for three weeks. That squadron is so depressing. Trainees are there for so long that they completely give up. It's a disgrace.

quote:

Originally posted by UWWomanRugger:
I would like to know people's opinions on PT under black flag conditions (and PLEASE limit it to that - the general PT discussion is a well beaten, dead horse). I ask because we were PT'd under black flag today and I'd like to know how others would handle the situation. During PT, it was announced over the radio and our MSgt. responded that he copied, yet we continued. Then the big voice over the whole base announced it...and we continued. Then the actual flag in the training area was finally changed from red to black...and we continued. Ten minutes after the first notification, we finally began cool-down stretches. It's only more ironic that we're losing our down Friday tomorrow for squadron training because people can't follow the rules & lack integrity, yet the MTLs PT us under black flag. Everyone talks about it being 130 in Iraq. I get that and I'll follow the SOP over there when I'm over there. But SOP here is no PT under black flag - it's a safety issue. Considering this is the second time this week we've continued after the initial announcement, I'm on the verge of reporting it but being a fresh-faced A1C, I'd like input from those of you who have BTDT. Thanks!

If it was up to me, I'd throw the whole "flag" system away. Based on your "UWWOMANRUGGER" Id, you should be in shape enough to handle 10 minutes of heat...oh and as another mentioned why are you still at basic after 10 months? Something smells wrong here.

quote:

Originally posted by Zwerge:
If it was up to me, I'd throw the whole "flag" system away. Based on your "UWWOMANRUGGER" Id, you should be in shape enough to handle 10 minutes of heat...oh and as another mentioned why are you still at basic after 10 months? Something smells wrong here.

Yes, I am in shape enough to handle ten minutes of black flag PT (even after we'd already been out there for a while in red flag). I go out to the track every Saturday, Sunday & down Friday to run on my own & I usually don't even know the flag condition unless it's after noon & the gym has theirs posted when I walk by. That isn't the major sticking point FOR ME. For me, it's the integrity issue of SNCOs saying one thing & doing another. For some of the other females, it WAS about the PT.

As for being in Basic for 10 months, I wasn't. jpratt was responding to Bmtking who was there for 10 months. Standard 6.5 weeks for me.

To others who have mentioned how black flag is a regular occurrence in summer, my answer would be to move PT to the morning like it is at Lackland & Sheppard. PT at 0500 at Basic was great; it woke me up for the rest of the day. I'm looking forward to it again when I get to Sheppard.

And yes, PT is supposed to end immediately at black flag for the training squadrons here. I realize operational regs. are different. Tech school is supposed to be a transition from BMT to operational. At BMT, we couldn't PT under red flag at all. At least we can do 20-30 under red flag here.

Thanks to all for your input on both sides of the issue. I think my decision is to talk to our MTL on Monday. If it doesn't do anything or evens turns out negatively, fine, but I've always prided myself on doing the right thing.

Lighten up folks. The flag system is ridiculous, I dont think I've ever seen a flag flying at my home station now that I think about it. But seriously, those of you arguing that everyone should stop PT are stupid.

95 degrees is hot, sure, but if you cant pt in 95 degree weather then maybe you need to get on 2 a days.