My friend recently just received an LOC for telling a LT COL that his hands were in his pockets. Her supervisor was with her when she asked him politely and tactfully he shouldn't have his hands in his pockets but the next day her superintendant made her supervisor give her an LOC for telling the LT COL to take his hands out and her supervisor even told the superintendant that he felt that it was unjust and the way she brought it up was tactful. He said "He's a LT COL and she's an Airman. It's politics". I think it's unfair, just trying to see what you all think about this.

Welcom to the military.....but for the record....and LOC is NOT punishment....it is a corrective adminstrative tool.

Not to mention, this is only one version of the story.

Assuming the story is 100% correct, your friend was completely correct.

Good on her, because I would not tell a LtCol that he/she was wrong, unless I was performing a traffic stop, and then it depends on exactly who he/she is.

In my job I was once told by my Lt. in front of the entire 80 man flight that "unless the General is committing rape or murder, you will not so much as inconvinience him. I don't care what the hell he's doing wrong". For the record, the General was wreckless driving in reverse down a one way street, and doing about 50 mph at the time (the limit was 30). Upper leadership completely supported that answer by the way (off the record of course). I've seen too many people get burned that were in the right. The one thing I did respect about that Lt. was, he let it all hang out. He told me the way it was, even if the law said different. No sugar coating. I'll take that any day over "Integrity First", immediately followed by "do as I say and not as I do".

I think the way a person views this story is based largely on the experiences they have had while in service. All I can say is if your leadership is weak and doesn't have your back, then I wouldn't even bother in situations like that.
Like the saying goes; doing the right thing isn't always doing the right thing.

Right, only your commander can officially give you punishment.

We all know an LOC is technically NOT punishment. But come EPR time, we all know the REAL way it is typically viewed. LOC's are veiwed unfavorably any way you slice it.

Use the chain of command. She can complain about the LOC or run it up. If the story is as simple as you make it sound she is in the right. Her supervisor has a supervisor as well. Don't be the complaining airman that likes to complain but not act on anything.

I'm not sure if it's as simple as she's saying, but that's what her and her supervisor told me.

The first and obvious question to me is, what did the LOC say?

The second is for the crowd - is there an actual regulation that prohibits Airmen (officer or enlisted) from placing their hands in their pockets?

I don't know what it said. It's not MY LOC.

quote:

Originally posted by TheWifey:
The first and obvious question to me is, what did the LOC say?

The second is for the crowd - is there an actual regulation that prohibits Airmen (officer or enlisted) from placing their hands in their pockets?

Yes. You are not supposed to have your hands resting in your pockets. Basically the only reason for hands in pockets it to pull something out, or put something in. I don't really view it as a big deal, but some people throw a fit about it.

This is an example of separating Disney World and the real world.

Anyone (particularly a 5 month airman facing a 15 year Lt Col) who delivers constructive criticism like this should expect a price to pay. Sometimes even when you are right you can be wrong. I have no intentions on changing the world, nor would I care much about it in the first place unless a crime was being committed. When I was teaching my children to drive, I told them not to even beep the horn at others. You never can know what reaction you may get in return.

I don't know how best to search the pubs like you folks do, but a search with the word "pockets" turned up zero.

Anyone???

Well this is one of those things I don't care about. I don't think you should do it in public around civilians, but to me its not a big deal around where I work. I do it all the time.

If someone of higher rank said "get your hands out of your pockets" I sure as hell would take my hands out, usually people don't care, and you know who does.

If someone of equal or less rank, and I'm SrA here, said it I think I'd LOL myself to death. So if a SrA wouldn't take it seriously from an airman, a Lt Colonel might flip. This is a CLASSIC case of being a little to exellent in all you do, which I can't stand. Good on you Lt. Colonel, people need to have some common sence in this air force.


AFI 36-2903

1.3.2. Members will not:
1.3.2.1. Stand or walk with hands in pockets of any uniform combination, other than to insert or
remove items.
1.3.2.2. Walk in uniform while using cell phones, radios, hands-free headsets unless required in
the performance of official duties using a government issued device.
1.3.2.3. Smoke/use smokeless tobaccos, drink, or eat while walking in uniform.

ThatGuy,

I posted my two BL questions before my husband read the initial post on here. I won't repeat his comments but think you can imagine and relate to his reaction...

I still want know what the LOC actually read and what was included. BeefJerkeyRULES - she is your friend, can you ask her?

Thanks for the AFI research, BTW. It's all about perspective...well that, and getting a grip!

This falls along the same lines as someone in a flight suit (not posing for a PA/news picture) having their sleeves pushed up toward their elbows. Is there an AFI that says 'thou shalt not do?' Yeah, most likely, but c'mon...get a grip on what IS and what is NOT important!

quote:

Yeah, most likely, but c'mon...get a grip on what IS and what is NOT important!

I completely agree. If only a few more people realized everything wasn't life and death, and there are actually levels of importance.

The situation is moderately funny because CC's seem to be the ones always pushing the little blue book. And they always make statements like, "If I am outside and forget my hat/cover, I want you to correct me. Its the right thing to do. I don't care if you are only an Airman Basic". Yeah right.

If I saw my CC walking down the street without his cover, talking on his personal cell phone, with his BDU top unbuttoned, all while chugging a fifth of Jack Daniels, while on duty, I wouldn't bother to correct him. It's usually not worth it.

quote:

Originally posted by K9Jake:

quote:

Yeah, most likely, but c'mon...get a grip on what IS and what is NOT important!

I completely agree. If only a few more people realized everything wasn't life and death, and there are actually levels of importance.

The situation is moderately funny because CC's seem to be the ones always pushing the little blue book. And they always make statements like, "If I am outside and forget my hat/cover, I want you to correct me. Its the right thing to do. I don't care if you are only an Airman Basic". Yeah right.

If I saw my CC walking down the street without his cover, talking on his personal cell phone, with his BDU top unbuttoned, all while chugging a fifth of Jack Daniels, while on duty, I wouldn't bother to correct him. It's usually not worth it.

What part of this scenario are you actually joking about, if any?

quote:

Originally posted by K9Jake:
And they always make statements like, "If I am outside and forget my hat/cover, I want you to correct me. Its the right thing to do. I don't care if you are only an Airman Basic". Yeah right.

If I saw my CC walking down the street without his cover, talking on his personal cell phone, with his BDU top unbuttoned, all while chugging a fifth of Jack Daniels, while on duty, I wouldn't bother to correct him. It's usually not worth it.

I've got a story along those lines. You know when your out of tech school and go to your new base you do FTAC. And the commanders say well if you guys need anything shoot me and email blah blah. Well a guy in my flight did. He, an A1C, emailed the services commander, a major, about getting better flavors of poweraid in the chow hall.....Yea, I was an A1C at the time out of tech school just like him, so they rounded us all up and got destroyed. From that day on he was known as Gadoraideous.

If my commander walked down the street doing all those things, all I would do is go from a formal "good morning sir" to, "whats goin on sir?".

quote:

I've got a story along those lines. You know when your out of tech school and go to your new base you do FTAC. And the commanders say well if you guys need anything shoot me and email blah blah. Well a guy in my flight did. He, an A1C, emailed the services commander, a major, about getting better flavors of poweraid in the chow hall.....Yea, I was an A1C at the time out of tech school just like him, so they rounded us all up and got destroyed. From that day on he was known as Gadoraideous.

Nice. There's always one person in every unit you can picture doing something like that.

The sad thing is, in my job, theres more than one person, and your not picturing them doing it, they are doing it. I love it though!