Ok im going to get on my soap box I just started riding motorcycles again and got my permit but according to the AF I can’t ride it until I go through the Motorcycle base course?? This is so ridiculous the state says I can ride but just no passengers and I can’t ride at night. So I guess I bought a bike and can’t ride it because I can’t get into a safety course for a month this is so ridiculous another stupid rule setup by the AF that makes no sense. If the state allows me to ride why not the AF????

Maybe ....
because you don't have any affect on the state's mission?

because you don't cost the state anything if you go out and get yourself torn up (or killed)?

because the AF is more concerned with your health and well-being than the state?

I'm sure there are others, but that'll make a start.

quote:

Originally posted by MustangGT05:
If the state allows me to ride why not the AF????

The AF is the ones that will pay for your medical and or death benefits, the state wont. Its just a way for them and you to cover your butt.

Mainly it covers the AF so if you are being stupid and doing stuff they told you not to do in the safety course and they ask you why you were being stupid they can not pay for your medical bills because they told you to be safe and to not be stupid. But they would be specific on the things not to do.

There's no reason to have a soap box on this issue. Traffic control procedures on base are not the same as the civilian world. With confined space, the opportunity for accidents are greater and the military, not just the Air Force, are making sure you are qualified in their eyes, to keep from injury or property damage.
Even if you have just a few thousand personnel on your base, the cantonment side is much more compressed than a town of equal size. It's not even a justified evil. It's intelligence and common sense, brought on by about 50 years of people riding on base in any great number.

Don't get caught riding it without a license.... you'll be made an example.

Is it really a stupid rule to require you to take a MSF course BEFORE you ride your motorcycle?

Had you bothered to check with anyone before you went and spent the money, you would have known the requirement.

Which brings me to my first question: is it a stupid rule because you didn't know about it before you did your own thing, or is it stupid because you think you are ready for anything the road throws at you because you took a written test and got a permit?

If it seems like I am being negative right now, it is because I am. I have absolutley no sympathy for you. These are things you need to know BEFORE you go out and get a motorcycle. I am not sure what state you are in, but most places a motorcycle permit does not allow you to ride alone. You usually have to have someone riding near you.

The basic MSF course is free. They provide the motorcycle. The advanced MSF course is also free, and in most cases will allow you to take your MSF card and go get a motorcycle endorsement on your license.

Had you asked someone or done 2 minutes of research, you would have known.

The rules are in place because of people who go out and buy a motorcycle, then proceed to go do something stupid with it. Motorcycle accidents are a huge problem AF wide, and this is the best way for our leadership to try and curb that problem.

Stupid? Hardly. You might just learn something in that "ridiculous" class that will save your life.

In the grand scheme of things, what is a month, really?

And I know what you're thinking: "I'll just ride it off base on the weekends and no one will know any better." Trust me, if you are involved in an accident they will know. Line of duty determinations are no fun.

So, no matter how much you don't agree with the rules, they are still there for your protection and must be followed. You can complain about it all you want, but there is nothing negative you can say about the things taught in the MSF courses that could be taken seriously. It is a very beneficial course, even if you are an experienced rider. (I take it every 2 years just to stay sharp)

The state allows you to ride because you have fulfilled THEIR requirement. You are not allowed to ride PERIOD until you fulfill the Air Force's requirement. Really, it's not unreasonable.

Next time, do your research and things like this would be a non issue.

Potsie said everything I was thinking of... just with a few less expletives. This is, odd as it may sound, a subject close to my heart for a few reasons. I'll keep my personal comments out of it. Just get on Google and start looking up DoD motorcycle fatalities and you'll understand why such rules and regs are in place.

If it makes you feel any better, it's not just the Air Force with these "stupid rules". It's all of DoD.

The rule is in place based on past history of Motorcycle Safety. If nobody had ever had a mishap on a bike, I doubt this would be and issue. Through the 90's, the DOD had major issues with folks geting hurt and killed on bikes. So much so that this policy was implemented as a Risk Mangagement measure to help curb the tide of mishps. You may be the next natural born motorcycle rider, but the air force can't count on that and let just you slide.

I could really see this course and the benifits of it for a 18 year old out buying a crocht rocket with speed in his viens but,, but im 33 years old and not really wanting to show up the next bike or fast car I pull up next to I dont wont to die anytime soon,, I respect the bike and the power it has and I am VERY VERY careful on it!!!!!!

Age and bike have NOTHING to do with it. Everyone learns something in that course. Read cheese's motorcycle post and there are veteran rides who learned things when they had to take it. Unless you can answer the following questions without thinkg, you need the course:
1.) What foot do you put down first & why when you stop?
2.) What do you do differently for a rear wheel skid vs. front wheel skid?
And many, many, more.

well for me its going to be my left foot because i had surgery on my right and for a front skid you let off the brakes and reapply and for a rear skid you ride it out till you stop if you dont the tail will whip around on you!!!! And I disagree with you on the AGE and the bike your going to tell me a 18 year old is not going to ride crazier and faster cmon now thats why the insurance on them is 1000 BUCKS a year compared to 185 a year for me!!!

If you are a new rider... this course is for you.

If you are returning to riding after a layoff... this course is for you.

If you think you are any less vulnerable to outside forces than anyone else because of any number of self-perceived factors... this course is for you.

If you think you know it all and you won't learn anything from "a course designed for 18 year olds on crotch rockets"... this course is for you.

If you are a card-carrying member of the DoD... this course is for you... because The Man said so. Simple as that.

As already stated, even if you have your "M" endorsement on your state-issued vehicle operator license, don't get caught (or turned in) riding on OR off base without the MSF endorsement. Some bases go as far as to require your MSF endorsement be on file with the Safety office. At best you are going to get a slap on the wrist. At worst you are going to be restricted from riding via a direct order from your CC. Seen it happen. Also, as mentioned, if you happen to crash while riding without an MSF endorsement (on or off base) you are going to be subject to the big "NEGATIVE" on the Line Of Duty determination. I can't say with 100% certainty (someone please jump in here), but I recall there being a block to check for MSF (or equivelant) MC training completion right next to the PPE box.

If you get in an accident, there are three questions the WG/SQ/CC is going to ask:

-Is he/she alive and if so, are they hurt?
-Were they wearing all their required PPE?
-Did they have an MSF endorsement?

In addition to the MSF endorsement, it's required to wear all PPE both on and off base, as well. Another "stupid rule" to be aware of.

As for the MSF course, itself, you are fully authorized to take the Experienced Rider Course as opposed to the BRC if you think you still fall under the "Experienced Rider" category (not saying you don't). The course is shorter, you get to use your own motorcycle (good idea if it's a new bike you aren't intimately familiar with), and it doesn't spend as much time on the "this is a motorcycle..." instruction the BRC does. You WILL learn something, and if you go in with an open mind an the attitude that someone is PAYING you to ride a motorcycle all day... you just might actually have some fun!

I feel your pain on the having to wait for a class part, though. A few years ago when they decided to make the ATV course mandatory, the Wing/CC decided that everyone that had a 410 on file was no longer authorized to ride their ATV's (with the same consequences as those riding a motorcycle). Needless to say there were a lot of pissed off hunters and all-around ATV enthusiasts who had been riding for years and years DOCUMENTED with no issues. All of a sudden they had to park them until they could get in a course. Imagine the backlog for THAT course!!! Now, imagine how much easier it would have went if we actually had more than one instructor for it...

Be smart and wait it out, though. If you don't, you may find your motorcycle sitting much longer than a month.

*EDIT*

Something else I forgot, and this can be helpful for EVERYONE who rides in the military... once you get your MSF card, take it and make a copy. Get it laminated if possible. File the original in a safe place and carry around the copy with you to present when needed.

There is no "central MSF database" that registers MSF card numbers. If you lose your card, have your wallet stolen, etc., you will need to try and get in contact with your instructor somehow (which could be from many years and many bases ago) and HOPEFULLY they will still have a record of you successfully completing the course. They (if they are still certified) can then make you a duplicate. If they aren't certified any longer (My certification expired after my accident, so anyone I was the head instructor for is out of luck), or don't have a record of you, then there is nothing to say you ever took the course. If you can't produce a completion card, then in Uncle Sam's eyes you are not MSF certified... and must retake the course in order to ride. That means you are back at square one.

So, take good care of that original MSF card!

Good advice about the actual card 2T2.

Mustang,
Take the advice of those who had posted. We are not talking out of our a$$es here. We know from experience.

The day you feel invulnerable like nothing on the road can hurt you, the consequences could be dire. Take the course, take it seriously, and then enjoy your new ride.

hey mustang05, if you had surgery on your foot, you probably shouldnt be riding until its healed anyways. besides, you want your left foot down first since your right foot is going to be working the rear brake. And if you have a rear skid, dont ride it out... let off a bit on the throttle to regain some traction. If you ride it out you have a good chance of low siding it. I rode for quite a while before taking the course but learned a lot of useful stuff. You may not learn anything new about how to ride, but the course teaches you lots of stuff, like how to be observant of other peope on the road not noticing you in their blind spot, and where you should be to avoid them slamming in to you. Besides, its not every day you get to ride someone elses bike who isnt going to make you pay if you decide to drop it, much less let you rag it out all you want. My MSF instructor was letting us drop the clutch, lock up the brakes, whatever we wanted as long as we were learning from it. Funny thing you mentioned the foot thing; this british lady in my class (no offense to any brits here) asked the same question; why does it matter what foot. The next day in class we were practicing using the rear brake to stop which forces you to put your left foot down to keep from tipping. Well, she still wanted to put her right foot down first, AFTEr she had come to a complete stop for a good few seconds, and i never heard an old lady cuss so much. Needless to say, the instructor laughed, then proceeded to kick her shift lever back in place.

quote:

Originally posted by MustangGT05:
well for me its going to be my left foot because i had surgery on my right and for a front skid you let off the brakes and reapply and for a rear skid you ride it out till you stop if you dont the tail will whip around on you!!!! And I disagree with you on the AGE and the bike your going to tell me a 18 year old is not going to ride crazier and faster cmon now thats why the insurance on them is 1000 BUCKS a year compared to 185 a year for me!!!

Hey i disagree with you on this age thing. Probably the majority do dumb crap and then those of us that dont have to suffer for it. I got my license at 14 years old and rode to school everyday. I used to instruct the advanced MSF course here and i dont think it taught the young immature ones a damn thing about how to properly act on the road, it taught them what a mature motorcycle operator would do but...........Then there are plenty of stupid people that are going to hit the pavement before it is over with anyway.

Why dont they make you take a Safety course before you go out and buy one of these turbo charged rice burning cars and go out and disrupt the roads?

I agree with motorcycle safety, but just like the pt program the MSF course offered on this base is messed up and dont teach much to anyone. This was five years back when i particicpated in the program maybe it has changed since then. End of Rant!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jpratt0826,

Had a MSG friend who swore by his bike and would listen to nothing from coach-type (me) who only saw them as "murder cycles" that often end careers the hard way. Well, following a 5 week coma he got to experience after being t-boned by a Buick station wagon at an intersection where he had the right-of-way, he had a change of thought process.
Despite going through broken legs, crushed pelvis, broken ribs, and a face rebuild, he managed to get back to active status and eventually retire military. I accredit that to him being a Viet Nam Era Marine before switching over to Air Force - but he never touched a murder cycle again - -

Have fun - -

I did forget to mention there are exemptions to every rule and riding a motorcycle is definetly dangerous. When i got back from Iraq i traded mine in for a F-150 after almost 15 years of riding.

I road in circuit races and have been riding motorcycles, since I was a teenager, in the 60s. I never once took offense to the DoD's motorcycle certification. As a matter of fact, they even shed some light on a problem, occurring frequently in the South. People aren't afraid to run you off the road.
I found that out, when I pulled up to a stoplight in Columbus, MS, and stopped left of the tire tracks. A redneck, in his beat up old pickup, pulled right up beside me. Had I not been through the class, I'd probably thrown something at the idiot. Instead, I just let him go and didn't look at him. I always kept a few spark plugs at easy reach, in case I needed to hit one these morons, but always tried to avoid confrontation.
You never know what you're going to learn, until you open your eyes and ears, and close your mouth.