So I attended an "Assumption of Command" today. There was a mandatory formation (Comprised of 90% Cops, but thats another story for another thread...)with civilians in civilian clothes mixed in amongst uniforms. We are part of the MSG, which is full of civilian types, and I have no problem with them, but in a formation with military in blues? AND saluting. I find that a bit, well, tacky. Not to mention unmilitary and kind of disrespectful to those in uniform.
Discuss...lame or not?

Agree. Very lame. Civilians have NO place in any military formation -- EVER. Yes they are a part of the total force but let them represent at commander's call.

What base or unit was this? Did protocol weigh-in?

I've arranged several change of command ceremonies during my career. Civilians were always invited, but the formations were always military. I agree with SAMFOX1, I 'm wondering if the protocal office was consulted.

I feel the same way about the civilian gate guards saluting officers and their dependents when they drive through the base gate.

I'm on a base that seems to be mostly civilian (Boeing, Dyncorps, Civ Gate Guards etc). While we haven't crossed that bridge yet (mixed formation), it doesn't surprise me at all. So while not surprised, I still vote on the side of extremely lame.

While on the civy subject, I have a question? Does the gov't require GS employess to stand tall for base retreat? I know they have to stop their cars like everyone else on base, it just seems like military are the only ones who stand still here while on foot, and pay respects.

Wont say what base, suffice to say it is an AFMC yard...lots of civilians. The worst was another c of c which had civilians IN CHARGE of the formations...reporting in AND saluting in civilian attire. Disgraceful...

Yes, they definitely should be invited and included...but formations are for uniformed military.

I'm gunna have to say, this topic will be agreed upon by all. LAME!!! Are you kidding me? Civilians, in formation, saluting...its not bad enough they contract all our jobs out, whats the difference between us an them again? Oh yea, we deal with the BS.

I don't mind if, by happenstance, civilians are intermingled with military at these things (which are often held outdoors in nice weather). But they should know that all they have to do is sit or stand there respectfully. No saluting. Just try to keep your hands out of your pockets. lol

quote:

Originally posted by K9Jake:...While on the civy subject, I have a question? Does the gov't require GS employess to stand tall for base retreat? I know they have to stop their cars like everyone else on base, it just seems like military are the only ones who stand still here while on foot, and pay respects.

IIRC there is no "rule" to stand tall, but all on base are suppose to stop their vehicles, or stand facing the music either saluting (mil) or with hand on heart(civ) during the NA.

Of course, there could be different guidance per base.

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny67:
The worst was another c of c which had civilians IN CHARGE of the formations...reporting in AND saluting in civilian attire. Disgraceful...

Despicable as it undermines the serving a military obligation and performing of military duties. IMO, might as well put the local pimp and drug dealer in charge of the formation. Care to disclose the Change of Command so I can write a letter to the editor of the Air Force Times?

1. The civilian isn’t held to any weight management or fitness standard.

2. The civilian is not a member of the uniformed armed forces and can not be armed to fight as a lawful combatant.

3. The civilian is not under jurisdiction of the Uniformed Code of Military Justice.

4. The civilian cannot command military units, cannot exercise command over military members assigned to a unit they are director for, supervise, or manage, and most importantly cannot issue a lawful order.

5. Imposing nonjudicial punishment upon a military member requires a commissioned or warrant officer who, by virtue of rank and assignment exercises primary command authority over a military organization. (exception a commander of the unit can delegate this authority to a civilian director, but the civilian is acting in behalf of the commander.

Sounds utterly retarded.
Whose idea was it? The Group CC?

Civilians in civilian clothes mixed in amongst uniforms?

Lame!

Civilians in charge of the formations, reporting in and saluting in civilian attire?

Lame, and without a doubt disgraceful not to mention disrespectful to those in uniform!!!

Ack! That is extremely tacky! I hope pictures of that didn't make it into any newspapers. I wonder how they dressed and filed. Very non-military. Ugh!

Oh boy AFMC! My favorite place which I call the butt brigade!

I was at WPAFB and this is a notorious movement of commander's and director's to "make" all feel that they are part of the team. But the reverse effect is occurring, most are embarassed or upset with the events.

It is the leadership driving this shameful act of disrespect.

Another reason why we need some solid leadership with the new SECAF and CSAF.

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny67:
Wont say what base, suffice to say it is an AFMC yard...lots of civilians. The worst was another c of c which had civilians IN CHARGE of the formations...reporting in AND saluting in civilian attire. Disgraceful...

Yes, they definitely should be invited and included...but formations are for uniformed military.

1. Well...your call if choosing to withhold alleged unit/occurence. I can understand but...

2. I would submit to you that such an occurence is so far outside of military protocols that the veracity of your account requires validation. Otherwise this resides in the military folklore category with other tales of "there I was..."

Veracity? Validati**? C'm** Sam. Are you questi**ing my integrity? Throwing the virtual bs flag??? But seriously.

So there I was...

Does this mean you will also throw the bs flag if I tell you about the time there was a midg...I mena a little pers**, in the formati**?

Sam, my profile lists me by name. I believe you are still active duty...check the global. I am not that **** to find. I still have to live and work here at _______ , an AFMC base, out here in the desert, north of LA. So I am sure you can understand that I d**t want to put too much out there. N** attributi** is not always the norm...

(Edit- Whats with all the asterisks lately?)

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny67:
Veracity? Validati**? C'm** Sam. Are you questi**ing my integrity? Throwing the virtual bs flag??? But seriously.

Don't know you I just read your words...so I'm not qualified to question your integrity. There are times when people embellish accounts of their experiences. Most of the time it's just easier to go along with the entertainment value of the offered story.

quote:

So there I was...

Does this mean you will also throw the bs flag if I tell you about the time there was a midg...I mena a little pers**, in the formati**?

Now that is a funny image!

quote:

Sam, my profile lists me by name. I believe you are still active duty...check the global. I am not that **** to find. I still have to live and work here at _______ , an AFMC base, out here in the desert, north of LA. So I am sure you can understand that I d**t want to put too much out there. N** attributi** is not always the norm...

When one states something as outlandish (IMHO) as what you describe and then omits sources or even where and when then you're asking readers to take a "leap of faith" based soley on the electrons you strung together?

I am still AD but I don't have the time, energy or desire to cross-reference profiles against the GAL. Your clues have satiated my curiosity and lends credibility to the probability of said buffoonery. Why not just say that to begin with if it truly happened? Were you all sworn to secrecy under the threat of a mafia hit? C of Cs are public events conducted in the open/light of day...true?

I understand what you are saying...even with the $20.00 words!

As far as coming right out and sayig where I am, my perspective and policy (At this base...has anyone not figured out where I am yet?) these days is simply to fly under the radar and not make unneccesary waves. I am burnt out and tired of receiving answers like "Thats just the way we do it here..." when I throw the flag.

We asked many other questions also. Like why was the formation predominately Cops? (Becasue other units were tasked out...holiday weekend and all...).
We have many civilians here, and they are a vital part of what we do. Some are great, some are...not so great. Just like the uniformed folks. But there are times when military should be military. I think everyone agrees on that.

I do my job, go home and save my energy for the battles I can win or decisively influence, and store the info on good AND bad decisions as a knowledge base for the day I am in charge of similiar situations.

I know the whole thing sounds weird...thats why I threw it out here. To see if others had similiar things going on in their world (Maybe it is commonplace?) and to gather opinions regarding it...

And dont worry Sam, my panties were not the least bit wadded...I was trying to be amusing.
Gotta recalibrate that joke-o-meter. I keep missing the mark...

quote:

has anyone not figured out where I am yet?

Gee, I think I may have been stationed there twice. It wouldn't happen to be a place with lots of open space and one-of-a-kind aircraft would it?

I can neither confirm nor deny that...