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Charter Member, former Mod & Administrator |
A veteran of my old flying unit in Korea, an F-86 pilot, passed along this email when he got wind of General Slay's reaction to comments about the SU-30s superior performance.
* Note: BVR is Beyond Visual Range F-22 demo video SU-30 demo video This message has been edited. Last edited by: stoneyj, Stoney  United States Air Force |
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"Flying in the Golden Triangle."  |
Let's see any Russian fighter do a near zero degree "controlled" loop and maintain combat awareness. They can't!
The F-22 defies aerobatic abilities of any other aircraft.  "VIA UNA COR UNUM" |
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Member |
Just another flavor of Raptor meat.
The only chance that the SU's have to even know that there are Raptors out there is to try and paint everything with their fire control radar, which only gives away their position to the datalinked F-22's as they close. The first fix the Flanker is likely to get is from a 120 going active or via infrared, but by then it's much tool late. If the F-22 is employed most effectively, its manuverability will never even come into use. Mike |
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Member |
Great to see you back around, Stoney!
Thanks for the good read. |
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Member |
Ok...you do realize that Russian doctrine doesn't have fighters going out and painting bogeys on their own right? They are GCI dependent, meaning someone is telling them where the bad guys are. The radar is only one tool the fighter has to find a Raptor BTW. The Su-30 also has the ability to search for targets with a passive radar system. Meaning, the Raptor is stearing away from the ground radar station tracking it, meanwhile the Su-30 is tracking the radar passively and the Raptor doesn't even know it. Don't be too fast to poo-poo the Russian plane. They wouldn't have spent millions on a plane that wasn't capable of keeping them in the armament race. As a side note, did you know the SU-30 has the capability to mount a pod to allow it to refuel other Su-30's. Pretty sure that is a capability the Raptor doesn't have. Imagine a fighter unit supporting itself on long range mission projection like that. Flankers also have a variant that can launch from carriers. Pretty sure you will never see a raptor do that either. |
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Member |
This is sort of a glamorous go USA statement. The planes aren't going head to head in a fly off in a dog fight. It is all about who is willing to fire a missle that will definately out perform either aircraft. The raptor will never out accelerate an AA-12 missle. The missle will out turn and out accelerate the raptor in a second. The big difference between our missles and theirs...they will not blink twice about shooting beyond visual range. With the fear American pilots are bread with about friendly fire, BVR isn't a missle shot a Raptor would take. The russian/chinese pilot on the other hand wouldn't think twice about getting that few seconds edge between life and death. |
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New Member |
Ya, nothing new. Got two Colonels in my family who flew against friendly Su-27's and they both say youd have to screw up pretty bad to get shot down.
The Su-27 based aircraft are only capable of 6.8G's, to the F-16 and F-15's 9G's. Even Russian General Ilyushin (Test pilot of everything from the Mig-21 up to th Su-27) said that the Su-27 was plagued by lateral instability and engine problems. And about BVR, you cant use it if you cant see the target, and even if they could, we also have equipment that can make a positive identification on an aircraft from about twice the range of an AMRAAM, but it is still unwise to fire missiles at that range because it allows the target to maneuver out of the missiles performance envelope. Even a half hearted attempt could defeat most missiles. Once a missile's kinetic energy is lost, its over. |
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Member |
First of all the Raptor isn't invisable. A modern Radar missle will find it. But more importantly you missed my whole thought process about BVR. V stands for visual. Even if the Raptor can detect wether the plane is friendly or not via IFF (which is notoriously poor in a combat environment. Think RAF Toronado shoot down by Patriot in OIF) they still will not shoot till they can get a visual on the plane. Your logic about out maneuvering a missle if it is shot at a longer range is poor also. If the fighter turns away while the missle is still at a distance, the missle will bleed less energy having to compensate for the turn. The AA-12 missle has is a 12g missle BTW. Much greater than any human can sustain. With the radar cueing from GCI and the lack of fear of shooting BVR, the SU-30 is still a viable threat for the Raptr pilot.
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USAF Forum Moderator |
I just returned from a two week TDY to Tyndall where my unit went to joust with the 22s (or be human target drones). The 22 may not be "invisable", but our pilots flying F-16Cs sure couldn't see it on their radar. One pilot in particular told me when he climbed out of his jet that he actually had a visual on a 22 and tried to get his radar cursor to lock on but his radar couldn't see it.
We had no illusions of taking any of them out, and we were thoroughly spanked, but hopefully we gave the 22 pilots a good moving target. I heard we had one kill on them...but it might have been a gimme.  The look on our pilot's faces when they climbed out of the 16s was mostly disbelief. Most claimed they never even had a chance because they never did see them.As far as I know radar missles need a target assigned by the aircraft before it will track. I don't believe you can just fire one off the wing in a general direction and hope it aquires a target (like an IR missle). I have a totally new respect for the F-22. SoWW #2485 Cave ****rium! |
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Member |
A missle with an active seeker head will aquire a target on its own. I doubt the pilot would ever fire a missle that way, but it can do it. The radar on an F-16 in no way compares to the radar on the SU-30 we are talking about though.
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USAF Forum Moderator |
I know it doesn't compare totally. I was just throwing out my recent experience about the capability of the F-22. Admittedly I don't know much about the SU-30. Both are impressive platforms.
 SoWW #2485 Cave ****rium! |
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Member |
I was at Tyndall in 2006. The wing commander of the F-16 unit from Hill brought his planes down for a similar exercise. Things went about as well for them. However, the Wing King from Tyndall challanged the Wing King from Hill to the same contest. The Hill commander was a much better pilot and won 5 of 7 engagements. Granted wing commanders are not the most profficient pilots in the wing.
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"Hi, Welcome to Walmart. Would you like a cart?" |
I must be misreading what you're saying...but why do you say that they won't shoot until they have a visual? Depending on the tactical situation, ROE can be built to readily authorize BVR engagements. In high-intensity theaters...it's something that's trained to. IFF is unreliable in combat environments because a good-guy jet with a damaged/malfunctioning transponder then looks like a bad guy. That's not an issue with ELINT/RADAR-based identification systems that the Raptor has. No matter how damaged a F15/16 is...it's not going to start emitting Mig/Su's patterns. That greatly reduces the ambiguity in IDs, which will enable longer-range engagements. There was a great magazine article (aviation weekly?) that went into good detail regarding Raptors taking part in LFEs up in Alaska. One thing that stuck out in my mind, is that Raptors would stick around even after their missiles were expended. They did this because their advanced ID ability allowed for better BVR engagements not only for themselves, but also 4th-Gen fighters such as the 15/16/18. The Raptor would orbit high, ID oncoming threats, which the 4th gen fighters could then engage at range. Dakotah |
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Have you ever tried to find A/C on radar if the A/C is designed to be invisible to radar? I have (F-117s), and there is nothing to direct a fighter towards. They turn off the IFF/SIF, and they vanish, pal. Now, if ground radar can't see it, and the radar of the A/C you're talking to can't see it, then the little radars in the nose of the missiles won't see it either - not before the F-22 has killed you, and the A/C you're talking to. The gigantic advantage a "stealth" A/C has is that he can get close enough to breath on you (hhhhhhuuu!) before your radar will get a bite on him. Now, if he's using his radar to hunt for your planes, that may give him away electronically, but there is no reason he can't launch BVR with an AIM-120, or something that just might passively lock on your electronics, or that of your CAP birds, then turn off his sensors, put you "in the notch" and slip away - - He'd be crazy to do a VID, if ROE didn't require it. Just as well be driving an F-4 for that... SU-30 might win, if it's 10 to 1. Surround the 22, run it out of missiles by sacrificing 6 or 8, then try to get a kill - but the Russians have always worked that way - - Wandering and Wondering |
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"Flying in the Golden Triangle." |
I'd like to know how a Russian passive/active radar is going to see an F-22 in the first place. Also, an F-22 can paint their radar to be showing in an area they aren't flying, because of vectoring exhaust nacelles and transverse 'G' maneuvering, though I serious doubt that would ever be significant or necessary.
"VIA UNA COR UNUM" |
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USAF Forum Moderator |
That reminds me of another debrief I got from my pilot. He said they actually did get radar tracking on a 22 at Tyndall at 10,000 ft. They all rushed to that area and all were immediately killed from that same 22...who was actually at 30,000.  SoWW #2485 Cave ****rium! |
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New Member |
Comparison of the flight envelope F22 vs SU30 is no contest.
Advantage F22. |
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New Member |
I am not sure that spending millions on a weapon system means it is good. The Soviets under Stalin had a "quantity has a quality all its own" mindset and that was proven in the early 80's in some of the desert fighting when Israel defeated much of the latest Soviet hardware. It was proven again in both Desert Storms. The Soviets spent millions on naval vessels that were subpar when compared to US, British and French warships. The Russians currently seem to have a Soviet mindset so I don't think you can overlook that. Another thing is that the Russians seems more intent on arming Asia with its latest weapons rather than using the weapons themselves. The F-22 currently is not for export. |
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New Member |
The Suk is a better looking airplane...and for most fighter pilots, looking cool is more important.
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Member |
There is a great reason he won't launch BVR. When was the last war pilots could punch off a few semi-active radar missles BVR according to ROE. Public image is too important to take the chance of a mistake Also, AIM-120 missles won't lock on to enemy electronics. You are getting all sorts of missles confused. I don't know of any Raptors that carry the electronics for HARM missles yet. |
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Member |
Take a look at how many MKI models Russia is currently flying compared to how many 22 we have already. Russia simply doesn't produce or fly any of their comparable aircraft currently.
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"Flying in the Golden Triangle." |
What they're claiming isn't anywhere close to the abilities of the F-22 and probably won't be able to go one-on-one with the F-35. There so-called fifth generation fighters are fourth generation with some new paint, canards, and some minor upgrades in electronics. Underpowered for their size, with 27,500lb thrust engines vs 35,000lb thrust engines on the F-22 and a 40,000lb thrust engine on the F-35. Unlike the Su-35, the American aircraft can fly in stalled air. The Sukhoi dissipates energy fast, cannot fly in stalled air, cannot communicate with dissimilar electronics, and lose their ability to match either American bird in a head-to-head challenge. Information was made available by flying against the Indian Su-35s, during Red Flag. "VIA UNA COR UNUM" |
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Member |
I saw the video debrief you are referencing. The pilot was pretty impressed from what I remember. Would be great if we could post it but alas....... |
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"Flying in the Golden Triangle." |
No doubt, but that may be a factor of the Indian Air Force, as much as the machine they're flying. It's just typical of Soviet/Russian armament, and we were fortunate to detect the flaws with an ally flying it. "VIA UNA COR UNUM" |
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Member |
You haven't by chance read "Red Eagles" by Steve Davies have you?
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New Member |
I've heard from friends of mine, who've been working the F-22 program for years, that the F-35 was far superior to the F-22. They also said the F-22 spent more time getting worked in a hangar than flying. Has anyone else heard this?
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Member |
They aren't basing it on the MC rates for both aircraft seein how the 35 isn't even flying yet except for a couple of test aircraft.
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"Flying in the Golden Triangle." |
No, I haven't. And no, I doubt an F-35 is going to master an F-22. It may be the most powerful engine developed for a fighter, but the F-22 is kicking out 70,000lbs of thrust, through vectored thrust engines. It will still be able to turn inside an F-35. Electronics wise, there won't be much difference, at least in the US version. I'm not sure about the export version, though past exports don't share the same equipment, except in the F-35, software rights have been granted to the UK. Nor have I heard anything about extended time in the hanger. The F-22 is superior to any of our other fleet for operational readiness vs maintenance time. "VIA UNA COR UNUM" |
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New Member |
The info I got was from a former F-22 maintainer who worked the plane up until the AF made the decision about which to purchase. He said the 22 was junk compared to the 35, and was alway broke on the ground while the 35 was completing sortie after sortie.
Besides, we all know REAL airplanes have props!  |
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Member |
I think you have your aircraft mixed up. The 35 only began flying last year and there are 2 test aircraft that I know of. I think you are referring to the YF-22 and YF-23 runoff. Torch, if you are into aviation books, Red Eagles is great stuff. Its about the secret MIG program the USAF and USN were using out at Vegas. |
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Member |
Think you need to double check your figures again |
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"Flying in the Golden Triangle." |
I'm taking that information being reported from the Air Force Association. It's not a fact I need to recheck any figures. The technical information was written up, after the first Wing stood up, unless there's something you'd like to enlighten me on, but the stats are accurate. As far as the MiG squadron, I'm very familiar with it, how we obtained them, how those tests prepared us for WWIII, when the Soviets invaded Western Europe, and how a standing order was issued, after USAF Flag officer crashed one of the aircraft and died. "VIA UNA COR UNUM" |
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Member |
Nothing more needs to be said. Good day. |
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"Flying in the Golden Triangle." |
NO, that's alright. I'm going off printed data. You may know something, being stationed there, I'm not privy to, that shows contrary information. "VIA UNA COR UNUM" |
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Member |
I'm intrigued about your knowledge of the MIG program. Were you connected with it in some way? The author of Red Eagles lives right up the road from me and I have talked with him a couple of times. Fascinating stuff.
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Member |
Yes, they do...but you neglected to mention the fact that they also have no engine driven electrical system...fabric covering...and a wheel... ...on the tail.   |
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Member |
I agree, I heard the Lightning II has problems and it is not really designed for close and personal dog fighting. It's specialty is attack and stealth long range air-to-air combat - the air battle is supposed to be long over before they meet. Analyst are worried about anything closer. Now the F-22 on the other hand - air superiority all the way. |
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"Flying in the Golden Triangle." |
I knew about the program through Security channels, but after the General crashed his MiG, the story came out in AFA about the complete make up of the Squadron's ill gotten booty. One thing I've always said. If it weren't for the Israelis, we wouldn't have known as much about the Soviets armament as we do, and we wouldn't have worked out the kinks in our technology, they gained by battling Soviet armed Arabs. "VIA UNA COR UNUM" |
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Member |
Completely agree |
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New Member |
I will take your tailwheel and raise you one bada$$ tailwheel...this is my old airplane!The most fun I have EVER had..and Russian to boot! Enlisted people can fly too....  |
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