I am trying to figure out how to get around the PCS issue for having both BFE and IQT at the Rock, back to back. I'm being told that even though they are 2 courses, that I will have to PCS there due to the length of the 2 combined at the same duty location. This is a backbreaker for me as a Guardsman, as I live in the most expensive BAH region in the nation, and I can't exactly uproot my son and move him to Little Rock for what will only be a 7 month stretch.

I saw this posting on another forum, and wondered if anyone knows what he is talking about:

[[[Ok, well I just completed UPT at XL. My wife and kids stayed back home. I was PCSd to XL and I recieved BAH for my Home of Record. This is done by applying for the new (new as in less than 2 yrs old) BAH waiver policy. There is a letter that you can sign that states you will not be moving your family to your PCS location and it also requires you to forfeit your entitlemnts such as DLA, full TMO, and other pcs related entitlements. You can only have the gov't move pro gear. The catch is that the PCS can only be 52 weeks or shorter. UPT is generally gonna be 54 weeks. You will need to use some creative thinking to still qualify and your training folks will have to play nice. For example, maybe they don't know if you will finish Phase 1&2 and therefore only cut orders for the first 6 months of UPT...

...and I am wondering if anyone else is aware of this, or has crossed this hurdle before. I know I am not alone in this. This is a $2,000 a month difference, so it's a major deal to me. Paying my bills on an Arkansas BAH rate while maintaining a home for my dependent in the San Francisco region would just about squash me...(do they accept food stamps at the D-FAC?)

I find it funny that the 1A1 functional manager's rationale for telling the active duty guys why they were going to stay at their current base when they get their FE assignments was due to the fact that the AF is in a massive PCS hole several Billion bucks deep...and that it costs (and I quote) "approximately 17,000 per PCS"...so by THAT standard, they will be wasting $34K on moving my son and I for a 30 week course? Out of a PCS budget that they shouldn't touch? Hmmmm.

I don't quite get it.

Anyway...I know there are probably several of you out there who have already slain this dragon, or have become dragon dinner (one or the other), and I'd appreciate some input from you about how it went, either way. My school dates at the Rock run from 7 JAN through 28 JUL on constant orders. That puts me over the gate for the TDY status, according to the powers that be around here...

Appreciate anything ya got...
...

I had a Guard guy in my BFE class that ran into the same problem. He was from California as well and they said that he was being PCS'd to Kelly since that's where BFE and C-5 IQT were held. They told him that he was to be at Kelly over 20 weeks since he was scheduled to start IQT the week after BFE.

Not only was he being PCS'd, but they moved him into the dorms (he was a TSgt), and that meant that they were also going to take away his BAH (he also had a family and house in Cali). I'm not sure what the final outcome was but I do know that they finally moved him back into billeting, and him and the functional were going to re-work his classes if his Chief back at his home unit still went through with trying to PCS him.

The functional was talking about sending him to the SERE courses right after BFE so that would force him to leave Kelly which would of put him there less than 20 weeks. Maybe you could do the same.

I tried the split classes thing...they aren't doing it. They put both BFE and IQT back to back at Little Rock, and put Pensacola after them. I leave for SERE this week.

I was told to expect the bean counters to try and do this to me...I just know there is some other answer that I am not seeing here.

TSgt in the dorms? Losing BAH? I would blow an o-ring, in short order.

You belong to the CANG right? Can the Air Force PCS you if you belong to the guard? As for living in the dorms, are you married? If so tell them your wife will be accompany you. If they do PCS you, you should get DLA. That is one and a half times the BAH rate. That might help ofset some of the cost of the BAH loss.

Other entitlements would include Family Separation pay. Don't know how much that is, but nowhere near the BAH rate for the bay area. There has to be a way around it because guys go to Kirtland for more than 20 weeks TDY. The pilots make a huge chunk of money while there. Remember this is the Air Force, not the Army, so make noise if you want answers. Not like it used to be for you in the Army where you got what you got. You can affect change in the air force eventually.

That "way around it" is exactly what I am looking to find. DLA is nothing compared to the difference between $2600 and $810. Then I have to maintain a home in CA without the SF rate, and also pay for housing in Arkansas. Ouch.

Not worried about getting stuck in the dorms...that I can avoid.

If any of you know of someone in your sphere of influence that may have dealt with this type issue, please bring it up next time you guys are BS'ing at the water cooler...I need some fresh intel.

I should have had that chrome sleeve inserted in the cornholio long ago...would have made all this much easier to take. They need to put that chrome sleeve into FedLog.

I actually spoke with MilPay today about this very issue that is a concern for one my inbound students.

The NCOIC at MilPay said that as long as your PCS orders state that you are authorized to leave your familiy behind, you will be able to keep your HOME BAH.

With regard to the class length and how it relates to PCS v. TDY...if the class length (total training days) is LESS THAN 100, then it is a TDY. Anything over that is a manditory PCS.

Currently the CV-22 IQ is a PCS. We are moving towards making it a TDY for pilots (97 training days) and keeping it a PCS for FE's (137 training days).

I remember guys at Kirtland who were there for over five months. Of course they graduated very late, but would they change the status of your orders while there? One in particular was a Shadow pilot from Mildenhall. He graduated in 200 days. Bad weather, and extended DNIF, and broken planes kept pushing him back. Would they have changed his orders to PCS after he was getting close to the 100 day mark?

quote:

Originally posted by caninedale:
I remember guys at Kirtland who were there for over five months. Of course they graduated very late, but would they change the status of your orders while there? One in particular was a Shadow pilot from Mildenhall. He graduated in 200 days. Bad weather, and extended DNIF, and broken planes kept pushing him back. Would they have changed his orders to PCS after he was getting close to the 100 day mark?

In most cases a TDY to KAFB that goes past 179 (not very often), is just a very long TDY. Waivers are requested and approved. In a VERY few cases, they have actually cut PCS orders. THe problem with doing this is that the member ussually takes a BIG hit as far as the money goes...

Thanks much, guys. This is the type of response I was looking for. Anyone else who knows of, or has been through this issue themselves, please feel free to post your thoughts.

What I'm getting on my side is sounding like I need to ensure that the orders specify the lack of need to move my dependent child, and as he is a special needs child receiving condition specific medical care here in CA, I am assuming that will be an easy sell (if waivering is even needed), as the PCS would only be a 7 month gig.

Wish me luck, and thanks again for the input...it is appreciated.

Well...the orders that were in question for this posting, initially, just got cut this afternoon.

Get this...

PCS to Little Rock with no PCA (permanent change of assignment), which finance tells me will, in fact, get paid only the Little Rock BAH rate.

POV authorized as method of transportation, but NO mileage authorized...only reimbursement limited to the constructed cost of the Government Travel Request (i.e. reimbursed airline ticket fare only...about $340 in total...for the whole round trip).

Now, mind you...I am a single father with a dependent child already in the system (as mentioned above)

These orders cover two classes...one class is 07 JAN to 22 FEB, and another class, at the same duty location, is 29 FEB to 22 MAY. I thought the rule (I looked it up after PaveJim's reply) was was for anything over 120 "academic" days for one individual course at same station. Isn't academic days the same as training days? (vs. calendar days?)

Orders were cut today, the 27th...travel day begins on the 2nd (5 days away). I suppose there'll be no 10 days permissive TDY for my house hunting?...no time to move the kids' school?...pack up household goods? (because one damned sure ain't gonna make their San Francisco bills on Arkansas BAH)

...I knew they were going to try to hose this one up...and sho-nuff...

It's my Christmas present from my Uncle Sam.

I was told from the get-go (that is...after all these initial postings...when I had already been in the AETC school pipe for a bit and we started to get orders cut) that they were going to TDY me and let me drive, but everyone in the section told me to beware of those promises...now I see. When you are told you are going on a long TDY, is it wrong of me NOT to plan on having to uproot a family (for what turns out to be a total of about 150 calendar days)

So...back to the old question that started this thread...any of you been in my shoes before? Been through this and had an effective resolution? It's been about a month since I pushed this post up...

Hate to put out such a personal rant, but I am rather pissed at the moment, as anyone who's 'been there' can likely understand...I am afraid to set off on the road with this unresolved, too...

It's a really $h!tty situation that I find myself in, because if they won't change it, I have no other choice but to throw away this entire journey to earn my Combat Shadow wings...I just can't make it on that $$$ (not whining...it just isn't feasible). Withdrawing from training I have worked hard to get into...for such a stupid reason...will feel like I voluntarily jumped into the bathtub with the toaster.

I do NOT want to have to make that call. I'll hate myself for years to come.

I am all ears, as I am quickly running out of time. Any suggestions or advice will be appreciated.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: lstgnfghtr,

I have never heard of the 120 academic days thing, I have only seen the 20 week measure. I highly reccommend calling or emailing the functional. He and your shirt should hopefully be able to put their heads together to figure something out. I'll search the JFTR and post back with what I find about the 20 week thing in a minute.

gl dude

found another thread with a similar dilemma

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11105&hl=20+weeks

The 120 day thing was what came back when I put out my feelers about this (asked others in the re-training pipe), and then on my orders, it also states:

7. "Member is in permanent change of station (PCS) without permanent change of assignment (PCA) status while attending a course of 121 academic days or more in duration at one location."

But it states further down that:

13. "Shipment of Household Goods while member is TDY is authorized not to exceed the weight allowances in the JFTR Para U4710."

Hmmm...PCS, but then saying TDY for Household Goods? (confusing).

It says:

18. "Pipeline student no per diem authorized."

(I'm an E-5 with many years of service and some grey hair...but not a pipeliner last time I checked)

Now, on the link you provided to the other forum, one of the posters said that his guys got around this by doing initial qual, coming home, and then doing mission qual...this would make sense, but my orders are for BFE, and then initial qual...2 separate courses separated by a week of dead time. I wonder if the regs are considering my total length on one station, or my length at one specific class??? Plus, those guys would have had to do BFE there if they were Guard...until just recently, I thought ALL Guard Herk guys went to The Rock for BFE.

I hear of all these guys that are "getting rich" on per-diem, but people don't realize that not everyone actually "makes money" in that situation. There are many parts of this country where the MAX you can pimp out of the pay system will just about get you to "break even".

Moral to my story...don't ever move to the Bay Area. Every year that I go through money issues out here (like on my 16 month activation in the Army Guard), I have to wonder if it's really worth it.

I'm sure there are some New Yorkers who feel the same way.

from the JFTR para U2146-B


B. TDY vs. PCS Status for Training Courses of 20 or More Weeks

1. The Secretary Concerned (without delegation) may authorize a designated course (excluding initial entry courses) scheduled for:

a. 20 or more weeks,

b. But not more than 180 days in length

to be attended and completed in a TDY status, rather than in a PCS status.

2. Requests for such action must be forwarded through Service channels to the Secretary and must include course number, description, length, school location, specific Service(s) of attendees, number of attendees who traditionally return to the previous PDS, and written justification for TDY vs. PCS."


So, this may be the hail mary. Maybe first try and get with your shirt and Sgt Bergin. I seem to recall a post here where the functional got involved and worked out a solution to keep someone in tdy status in a similar situation.

Is there a way you can break up the classes?

The whole deal on this and why the bean counting shoe-clerks are dicks about it comes down to the color of the money. O&M funds verses milper and mix in dmag and you got a mess. PCS and TDY funding comes from different pots. RA's can either be goats or gods. I hope you got a guardian angel.

and I feel for ya on the bay area thing....coming from a guy who was born in Oakland and had three years at Travis...

Okey Dokey, boys and girls...

...I just finished the A$$ busting drive from near Travis to Little Rock (way too much I-40 for me)...and am typing this from the Comfort Inn, just outside The Rock. I think I'll walk to base tomorrow just so I don't have to see my damned van for a while.

ANYWAY...I am proud to report that after a hell of a battle from all parties in my corner, that we finally got my orders cut as TDY vs. the PCS that they were..

Some really good Senior NCO's totally did their job...just for MY benefit...which has been a rather rare occurrence for me in my decade of service. I surely owe some rounds of drinks back home...no doubt.

I recognize that this is a non-issue for the majority of the folks that read these forums, and you couldn't care less about the technicalities that I personally needed to surmount, but do understand that it IS a big issue for Guard and Reserve coming here, and it apparently is an issue most ALL THE TIME when the Guard and Reserve send folks to The Rock.

That being said...if there is a member that finds themselves reading this post while facing the same stupid issue, or similar, please feel free to go to my profile page and send me an email/PM. I know a lot now about how this clusterF&$K seems to come about, and I will be more than happy to go over it with you and see if I can help un-F&$K your situation. I may have bad news, or I may have good news...fact is that the rules have recently changed, and they are not quite as clear as you'd think they should be. Again...I'll be happy to see if I can point you in the right direction if it comes up in your case.

Thanks to all those that tossed in their $0.02, and wish me luck getting through the next year of tech school (that starts Monday morning for me)...I am going to nail down this 1A1 AFSC, or I'll die trying.

Good luck with school, is it being conducted at the CoE? I remember your face so I'm sure I'll see you around sooner or later, hell we'll probably end up on a flight or 2 together.

No, HH60CC, it's in Little Rock. I just got here today.

That's the actual reason for this whole thread...this problem with the orders getting hosed up will all be a non-issue when all the BFE training is done at the CoE in San Antonio, but so long as there is a Guard BFE with follow on IQT all done here in Arkansas, the issue will remain for Guardsmen.

The 2 courses put the member right up to the borderline for PCS/TDY, and the Govt. likes to err on the PCS side of the coin as often as possible, thereby screwing the member out of home of record BAH and TDY pay. NY, CA and other high rent area guys take it in the shorts pretty heavily when they do that.

I meant the CoE at Little Rock, there is one here too. I'm glad everything worked out in your favor though, I know that was a burning issue for awhile.

Do you know where you need to go on Monday?

quote:

Originally posted by HH60CC:
I meant the CoE at Little Rock, there is one here too.

Ahhh...in the words of Johnny Carson..."I did not KNOW that".

No...not a clue about Monday...that's why I am glad I got here a day ahead of schedule to recon all that stuff tomorrow. If you see a clueless SSgt wandering aimlessly around the schoolhouse tomorrow in a white cargo mini-van with ladder racks, you'll know who said idiot is.

Be sure to point that idiot in the right direction, and it may just be worth a free beer...you never know.

If you want me to show you around the base, it's no problem, I need to go there tomorrow anyway

So this means you've forgiven me for showing you "the movie"? (inside joke)

I'll PM you.

Not even the strongest lava soap could wash my eyes of such terrible terrible things

Yeah...I've had my eyeballs out of their sockets and soaking in a bucket of JP-8 for the past 2 months, but it hasn't really helped much.

Hah!

I sent you an email btw.

quote:

Originally posted by lstgnfghtr:
Some really good Senior NCO's totally did their job...just for MY benefit...which has been a rather rare occurrence for me in my decade of service. I surely owe some rounds of drinks back home...no doubt.

So what was the actual fix? Did they just amend your orders to say "TDY"? Congrats on gettin it fixed, its gotta be a load off your shoulders...

They went in and actually counted out the number of "academic" days, and took out all the holidays, weekends, and other down days that they could. Then they sent it back up the pike. It took 3 different submissions and several phone calls to DC to get things back to wings level.

And yes...there was an amendment rescinding the PCS statement line, as well as the 'no per diem' statement line. I didn't get the mileage to Arkansas (1,950 miles), but seeing what the alternative was, I ain't gonna beeatch about that at this point.

Besides...BFE is apparently going to be hard enough that I don't have too much time to stress on the small stuff...the load is off the shoulders, and tomorrow is day 3 of the school I've been waiting to get into since I left the Army.

Okay...ix-nay on the ix-fay comment...

Got the MyPay LES today with Type 2 BAH only.

Apparently nothing will EVER work right the first time.

It almost feels like I joined the military...or went to the work for the government (or something like that). Such an eerie feeling of DejaVu...

quote:

Originally posted by lstgnfghtr:
Okay...ix-nay on the ix-fay comment...

Got the MyPay LES today with Type 2 BAH only.

Apparently nothing will EVER work right the first time.

It almost feels like I joined the military...or went to the work for the government (or something like that). Such an eerie feeling of DejaVu...

Are you really that surprised? I showed you where the Consolidated Support Center was, go forth and crack some skulls!

They don't gizz a dizzle about a Nasty Guard guy like me...

My finance told me that since I informed them the orders were cut with the wrong address (I informed them so THEY could get them fixed), that once SO INFORMED, that they could not KNOWINGLY pay me an erroneous BAH (even though it would have been less than I am actually due), so they decided to pay me no BAH, and reverted me to a reservist's Annual Training rate of BAH type II (a drop in the bucket).

So, had I kept my mouth shut, they'd have paid me at least $1,888, but because I tried to do the right thing and inform them of the error early on, it is now incumbent upon ME to get an amendment put through, so they can then pay me BAH again sometime NEXT MONTH. (I coulda used quotation marks, cause thats-a-what they said). I told them my rent comes due on the 15th, so if we could get this worked out in a week, I'd be straight.

Turns out the people that fix such things will be gone on leave and/or TDY, so I have to wait until the 22nd to speak to someone about it (i.e. they won't even BEGIN to fix it until the 22nd...which means I am past the cutoff for an LES, and it's gonna be Feb 15th before I get any housing $$$)

Some days you just have to wonder about whether putting the boots on every morning is really all going to be worth it in the end. Will the good times and great stories outweigh the YEARS upon YEARS of dealing with IDIOTS? (not that the Army didn't ALSO have it's fair share of a$$hats and rapidly promoting tools, either...they most certainly did).

Jury is out on that...(at least until I get my $$$ back). I'll shut up now. (no...really...I will)

Somewhat related Doug...did they house you on the kelly side? If so did you get full per diem during eauc/bfe?

No...I was on Lakckland main base at the Gateway, so I got the $11 or $12 per day. The guys who WERE at Kelly, however, DID get full boat per-diem. A couple of them had issues with it initially, but after being a little forceful, they got it bought off on the voucher.

I didn't do BFE there...I went from there to Fairchild, Pensacola, and am now in week 2 at Little Rock in the Air Guard BFE schoolhouse (where we have 3 Active Duty and 1 Reserve students mixed in...and Lackland's course has Guard students mixed in...go figure???).

If you run into an issue with that Kelly thing, be sure to PM me, and I can link you up directly with one of those classmates that were billeted at Kelly...maybe he'll have better insight on how to get it all signed off. It's not an "end of the world" issue if EAUC is the only course you are attending there, but if they keep you at Kelly for your follow on course, you'll be getting hosed without the $$$$.

Where does the 11 or 12 a day number come from? Do they consider us in quasi student status? Even partial at Lackland is 30 a day. I thought it was considered tdy status...

Hows that work with what you said about if they keep you at kelly you get hosed thing? I'll be there for 67 calendar days (eauc+bfe)...

My pm doesnt werk by the way, says something about me needing the mods to do something for it.

How's life at the rock treatin ya?

Just fine...BFE is tough, but not un-doable. We are studying for a block test tonight, actually. Little Rock is a very clean, nice base. Of course, my perspective is that of a former Soldier, so I am used to some pretty dickered up accommodations (I didn't even know they were bad until I came to the Air Force and "saw the light")

Yes, I was considered TDY, however in student status. I am an E-5 now (small sacrifices to change teams, y'know), but my orders read "pipeline student, no per diem authorized". I got just enough to cover 3 government meals a day, and just enough reimbursement on the GTC to cover the Gateway Inn on post (er, I mean "base"). Same deal at Fairchild...same deal at Pensacola...only got enough because I was billeted in Govt. housing, and was directed to mess in available Govt. facilities, which are totally available to you 7 days a week, 3 meals a day at Medina, so it's pretty much impossible to sell them on paying you partial. Trust me...we've tried.

Wish I had better news. Good thing is that when you go to the IQT phase at whatever base you will fly IQT at, due to the irregular hours and show times, you will most likely draw partial at a minimum. If it's 130's here at The Rock, it's guaranteed partial, and most likely off base housing in a hotel for a while, with full boat per diem (mine is for 100 days off base in a hotel).

That's all I know...if you quote me, I'll deny everything and start speaking in Swahili.

what I should have added to that is that you need to try your best to get a rental car authorized. It IS possible to use the base shuttle to get to school at Medina from Lackland (if you don't get Kelly...and most people don't get Kelly), but it is damned inconvenient.

Of course, you will likely catch a ride with other troops going your way, but that's beside the point. I paid for my rental out of pocket because it was cheaper than the gas to drive out from California, and I tried to fight the authorized rental car battle, and lost.

Now, if you are CERTAIN that you will be there for 60 some-odd days, then you'll likely be in your own car, and that's all a moot point...but for the other folks reading this post, heed my advice...if you can get it authorized from training, then DO SO. Lackland really sucks when you don't have wheels with which to ESCAPE.

Gun fighter
Thanks for the advice on the car. I'm headin off to EAUC in June and was pondering my options. Drive truck that only gets 12 mpg or suck it up and have Unc Sam fly my *** out there. After reading your post I think I'll take my gas guzzler. There's nothing worse then being stranded in a shitty hotel room. You can only watch so much spanktervision.
BB

Uh, they don't have spanktervision at Lackland.

They do have about 9,000,000 evangelists on TV, but no Jenna Jameson...

...there's always the internet that costs you about $30/mo, or $9/wk...and is slow as snot (well...128k or so...best I ever got).

I drove my work van that gets about 15 MPG here to Arkansas, and it was a 1,950 mile drive. I am here for 5 months, and they didn't authorize mileage to drive HERE, either.

But I AM in a hotel room...and I am NOT going to consider walking to Wal Mart my "recreation" time. I drove here in 2 days from sunny CA, and it was worth every miserable mile to have a set of wheels.

If it's just for EAUC, however, consider hooking up with another classmate, if the drive is a long one. EAUC is really short, and there will be a LOT of people with cars...toss them a few gas tanks, or some beers, and you have a ride...on, or off base. Always better to leave the Riverwalk with someone ELSE driving...you know? I never made it up the stairs from the river in a straight line, myself.

But if you are there for follow on 3 level school, by ALL means, roll your rig to San Antonio.

quote:

Uh, they don't have spanktervision at Lackland.

DAMN!!

Sounds like driving my truck is the way to go. I have BFE after EAUC so I'll be there for a couple of months. The good thing about my truck is that it's a single cab. That's right, no giving rides to the River Walk. Unless somebody enjoys sitting *****.

BB

No...you find the guy who will sit behind the WHEEL of the truck.

YOUR seat is to his right.

HER seat...if you manage to find her on the Riverwalk...is the aforementioned beeatch seat.

And YOU don't get yourself the seat in Johnny Law's county taxicab...with the free silver bracelets.

I had a rental...and I NEVER left downtown S.A. behind the wheel...some other putz who needed wheels to get off base was MY chauffeur.

That's some tactical training they didn't give you yet...and I'm not even going to charge you for it.