I dont think this has come up, but I dont think GEN Petraeus was ever in a situation where he could have earned a CIB. I looked on wikipedia at his resume and I think he missed out on all the post Vietnam shoot ups:

1983, Urgent Fury: Looks like he was attending schools.

1989, Just Cause: Looks like he was a general's aide in Germany

1991, Desert Shield/Storm: Wiki says he took command of a 101st Airborne battalion in 1991. It makes no mention of him being in the Gulf. Im assuming he took over after hostilities ended.

1993 Restore Hope/Gothic Serpent: Hes a 101st Airborne staff officer.

2001- to present OEF/OIF: He got promoted to general in 1999 and ineligible for a CIB no matter how much he was shot at.

Of course I left out any secret squirrel missions which could have garnered him a CIB since hes never been SF.

So there you have it. He may very well wear a CAB because he earned it and doesnt wear a CIB because he appears to never have had a chance to earn one!

My earlier comment on page 1 was just refering to the fact that I find it odd General Casey chooses not to wear the CAB, which I'm sure he probably has earned from the long time he spent in Iraq, and that he wears his EIB instead. Not many Infantrymen, Enlisted/ Officer, would be caught wearing a CAB if awarded it. Most of the ones I know would rather wear an EIB.

I thought he was with the 24th Infantry Division during Desert Shield/Storm.

General DAVID H. PETRAEUS
Commander
Multi-National Force-Iraq
SOURCE OF COMMISSIONED SERVICE USMA
MILITARY SCHOOLS ATTENDED
EDUCATIONAL DEGREES
PROMOTIONS DATES OF APPOINTMENT
Infantry Officer Basic and Advanced Courses
Armor Officer Advanced Course
United States Army Command and General Staff College
Senior Service College Fellowship - Georgetown University
United States Military Academy – BS – No Major
Princeton University – MPA – International Relations
Princeton University – PHD – International Relations
FOREIGN LANGUAGE(S) None recorded
2LT 5 Jun 74
1LT 5 Jun 76
CPT 8 Aug 78
MAJ 1 Aug 85
LTC 1 Apr 91
COL 1 Sep 95
BG 1 Jan 00
MG 1 Jan 03
LTG 18 May 04
GEN 10 Feb 07
MAJOR DUTY ASSIGNMENTS
FROM TO ASSIGNMENT
May 75 Jan 79 Platoon Leader, C Company, later S-4 (Logistics), later S-1 (Personnel), 509th Airborne Battalion
Combat Team, Vicenza, Italy
Jan 79 Jul 79 Assistant S-3 (Operations), 2d Brigade, 24th Infantry Division (Mechanized), Fort Stewart, Georgia
Jul 79 May 81 Commander, A Company, later S-3 (Operations), 2d Battalion, 19th Infantry, 24th Infantry Division
(Mechanized), Fort Stewart, Georgia
May 81 May 82 Aide-de-Camp to the Division Commander, 24th Infantry Division (Mechanized), Fort Stewart,
Georgia
May 82 Jun 83 Student, Command and General Staff Officer Course, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas
Jun 83 Jun 85 Student, Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey
Jul 85 Jun 87 Instructor, later Assistant Professor, Department of Social Sciences, United States Military Academy,
West Point, New York
Jun 87 Jun 88 Military Assistant to the Supreme Allied Commander Europe, Supreme Headquarters, Allied Powers
Europe, Belgium
- 1 -
General DAVID H. PETRAEUS
Jun 88 Aug 89 S-3 (Operations), 2d Battalion, 30th Infantry, later 1st Brigade, 3d Infantry Division (Mechanized),
United States Army Europe, Germany
Aug 89 Aug 91 Aide/Assistant Executive Officer to the Chief of Staff, United States Army, Washington, DC
Aug 91 Jul 93 Commander, 3d Battalion, 187th Infantry, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), Fort Campbell,
Kentucky
Jul 93 Jul 94 G-3 (Operations)/Director of Plans, Training and Mobilization, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault),
Fort Campbell, Kentucky
Aug 94 Jan 95 Senior Service College Fellow, Georgetown University, Washington, DC
Jan 95 Jun 95 Chief Operations Officer, UN Mission in Haiti, OPERATION UPHOLD DEMOCRACY, Haiti
Jun 95 Jun 97 Commander, 1st Brigade, 82d Airborne Division, Fort Bragg, North Carolina
Jun 97 Sep 97 Executive Assistant to the Director of the Joint Staff, The Joint Staff, Washington, DC
Oct 97 Aug 99 Executive Assistant to the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Office of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
Washington, DC
Aug99 Jul 00 Assistant Division Commander (Operations), 82d Airborne Division, Fort Bragg, North Carolina and
Commanding General, Combined Joint Task Force-Kuwait, OPERATION DESERT SPRING, Kuwait
Jul 00 Aug 00 Acting Commanding General, 82d Airborne Division, Fort Bragg, North Carolina
Aug 00 Jun 01 Chief of Staff, XVIII Airborne Corps, Fort Bragg, North Carolina
Jun 01 Jun 02 Assistant Chief of Staff for Operations, SFOR and Deputy Commander, United States Joint Interagency
Counter-Terrorism Task Force, OPERATION JOINT FORGE, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina
Jul 02 May 04 Commanding General, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) and Fort Campbell, Fort Campbell,
Kentucky and OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM, Iraq
May 04 Sep 05 Commander, Multi-National Security Transition Command-Iraq/Commander, NATO Training Mission-
Iraq, OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM, Iraq
Oct 05 Feb 07 Commanding General, United States Army Combined Arms Center and Fort Leavenworth, Fort
Leavenworth, Kansas
Feb 07 Present Commander, Multi-National Force-Iraq, OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM, Iraq
SUMMARY OF JOINT ASSIGNMENTS Dates Rank
Military Assistant to the Supreme Allied Commander Europe,
Supreme Headquarters, Allied Powers Europe, Belgium
(Cumulative Joint Credit)
Jun 87-Jun 88 Major
Chief Operations Officer, UN Mission in Haiti, OPERATION
UPHOLD DEMOCRACY, Haiti (No Joint Credit)
Jan 95-Jun 95 Lieutenant Colonel
Executive Assistant to the Director, The Joint Staff, later Executive
Assistant to the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Washington, DC
Jun 97-Aug 99 Colonel
Commanding General, Combined Joint Task Force-Kuwait,
OPERATION DESERT SPRING, Kuwait (No Joint Credit)
Aug 99-Sep 99 Colonel
Assistant Chief of Staff for Operations, SFOR and Deputy
Commander, United States Joint Interagency Counter-Terrorism
Task Force, OPERATION JOINT FORGE, Sarajevo, Bosnia-
Herzegovina (No joint credit)
Jun 01-Jun 02 Brigadier General
Commander, Multi-National Security Transition Command-
Iraq/Commander, NATO Training Mission-Iraq, OPERATION
IRAQI FREEDOM, Iraq
May 04-Sep 05 Lieutenant General
Commander, Multi-National Force-Iraq, OPERATION IRAQI
FREEDOM, Iraq
Feb 07-Present General
- 2 -
General DAVID H. PETRAEUS
US DECORATIONS AND BADGES
Defense Distinguished Service Medal
Distinguished Service Medal (with Oak Leaf Cluster)
Defense Superior Service Medal (with Oak Leaf Cluster)
Legion of Merit (with 3 Oak Leaf Clusters)
Bronze Star Medal with "V" Device
Defense Meritorious Service Medal
Meritorious Service Medal (with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters)
Joint Service Commendation Medal
Army Commendation Medal (with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters)
Joint Service Achievement Medal
Army Achievement Medal
Combat Action Badge
Expert Infantryman Badge
Master Parachutist Badge
Air Assault Badge
Ranger Tab
Joint Chiefs of Staff Identification Badge
Army Staff Identification Badge

Came across this, looks weird as hell. I think its technically within regs though.

I only wear the top two rows of the ribbons and medals that I actually rate. I'm not trying to be too cynical here, but some of them simply make no sense to me. I know what the regs say and all that, I mean, damn, I have 16 years in now. But an Army Service Ribbon when I have a uniform to prove it? An NCOPD ribbon when I have the chevrons to show for it? The Guard gives an Army Reserve Components Achievement Medal for four years of satisfactory attendance and an Armed Forces Reserve Medal for pretty much the same thing within a 10-year period. You can earn an "M" device for being mobilized, but, then, a combat patch (SSI-FWTS), a campaign medal, or a CIB/CAB would indicate that.

True, ribbons and medals are designed to raise a soldier's morale and esprit and, yes, Napoleon once said something to the effect of "...give a soldier a chest full of ribbons and he'll conquer the world for you" but it's to the point where they seem to have a ribbon for the most routine duties. Raising morale in my opinion has more to do with challenging troops with challenging, realistic training scenarios and rewarding them with a case of beer and deploying together, embracing the suck together, and importantly, coming home together than it does with mass issue of berets and ribbons for this, that, and every other thing. Give these Nintendo-Generation soldiers too much, too soon and they will rest on their laurels and get complacent. And that is not good.

The most important thing, to me, that you can pin on your chest, outside of a CIB, is your rifle marksmanship badge. If you can't handle your weapon system, you ain't worth $#!t to me and if you don't handle weapons frequently at all, then you must worry about your fruit salad. I know I am old school and maintain an unpopular opinion to some, but surviving a place like Iraq demands no less. Many of you have been in the same AO, so you know what I am talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Pumpkin****er1:
I only wear the top two rows of the ribbons and medals that I actually rate. I'm not trying to be too cynical here, but some of them simply make no sense to me. I know what the regs say and all that, I mean, damn, I have 16 years in now. But an Army Service Ribbon when I have a uniform to prove it? An NCOPD ribbon when I have the chevrons to show for it? The Guard gives an Army Reserve Components Achievement Medal for four years of satisfactory attendance and an Armed Forces Reserve Medal for pretty much the same thing within a 10-year period. You can earn an "M" device for being mobilized, but, then, a combat patch (SSI-FWTS), a campaign medal, or a CIB/CAB would indicate that.

True, ribbons and medals are designed to raise a soldier's morale and esprit and, yes, Napoleon once said something to the effect of "...give a soldier a chest full of ribbons and he'll conquer the world for you" but it's to the point where they seem to have a ribbon for the most routine duties. Raising morale in my opinion has more to do with challenging troops with challenging, realistic training scenarios and rewarding them with a case of beer and deploying together, embracing the suck together, and importantly, coming home together than it does with mass issue of berets and ribbons for this, that, and every other thing. Give these Nintendo-Generation soldiers too much, too soon and they will rest on their laurels and get complacent. And that is not good.

The most important thing, to me, that you can pin on your chest, outside of a CIB, is your rifle marksmanship badge. If you can't handle your weapon system, you ain't worth $#!t to me and if you don't handle weapons frequently at all, then you must worry about your fruit salad. I know I am old school and maintain an unpopular opinion to some, but surviving a place like Iraq demands no less. Many of you have been in the same AO, so you know what I am talking about.

HOOAH

quote:

Originally posted by Pumpkin****er1:
Shuman,

A sentence and paragraphs are groups of words that express complete thoughts. You've done a pretty good job of interrupting those thoughts with some obvious attempts at spin. No spin, I was just attempting to address certain points one for one. (Just like this one.)
This is an Infantry thread, so I saw fit to use the word 'pogue'. If it offends you because you aren't Infantry, don't read an Infantry thread. You must not have read my profile very closely. My first MOS in the Army was 11B. I then got a better job as a MP. We get a cool White Hat and black shiny sticks to play with too. What can I say? I was careful to mention that I had no intention of offending anyone in a couple of instances in my earlier post. I guess it still wasn't clean enough for you. No, it was clean I'm the one slinging mud.

Thank you for the by-the-numbers explanation of the difference between awards. I saw fit to mention the fact that I can read regs with the best of them, however my point was that I'm still vexed as to why I have to be decorated with three separate medals for performing one combat deployment. Because you weren't. You only got the ICM for it. Keep in mind that there are Reservist and Guardsmen that still haven't been MOBED yet and only have a NDSM. Others, like me, have been MOBED but were sent CONUS and only have the GWOTSM. Then others, like you, have been recognized for doing all three.

I find it somewhat immodest, in my honest opinion, but then again, I'm not wearing four stars on my shoulder, so I soldier on, accomplish the mission and see to the welfare of my soldiers as only an NCO can do.As ALL good leaders do. Because I established that I can and do read regs, I find your reddened interjection an unwarranted attempt to extend your intellegence. You simply don't like my opinions on contemporary Army award policies.

News flash: This is a place where opinions are shared. If you don't like mine, don't read them.

News flash: if you don't like my responses, which are my opinion, don't read THEM.

Regarding my screen name, you are the first person who seems to be offended by my screen name.
Lad, I wasn't offended, that was sarcasm. I actually like your screen name I'd just like to know how you're getting away with it. The MODs normally jump all over stuff like that. If this is an Infantry forum and a little salty language has rattled a cage and struck a nerve, then I really don't know what to say. I do think you read into my opinion a bit much and interjected in some unneeded places and suggest that you vent on someone who will feed into the anger, No anger, to the Dark Side does it lead. because I do not and will not. Thank you. You're most welcome.

All I can say is, "Lighten up Francis."

No, it was clean I'm the one slinging mud.

Then my response was react to contact.

News flash: if you don't like my responses, which are my opinion, don't read THEM.

I'm not sure what your opinion is, but I will reckon from your accurate and detailed commentary on the current US medals system that they mean more to you than they do to me.

And don't misconstrue or get me wrong. I am proud of my medals. But I was a squad leader in OIF. When the rubber meets the road and the infantry goes to work, that squad is usually manned by 18 to 22 year old kids---that was the case with my squad. Their parents still worry about them. They cried when we got on that plane. And I told them all personally that I was their squad leader. I was going to smoke their bags when they were in the wrong and slap them on the back when they were in the right and say, 'Good job'. And I told them that I was going to bring them home.

And we all came home. We nearly bought it once or twice and we endured some moments when we were scared to death. But we all came home. I knew some who didn't. But for some reason, we did. And that means more to me than any medal ever will.

All I can say is, "Lighten up Francis."

Never. Complacency kills. I will lighten up when I receive my 20 year letter and hang up that uniform for good. For now, I am more concerned with imparting what knowledge I do have to my soldiers and ensuring that they can shoot, move, and communicate because we might have to face that dragon again. And we may have to face it underfunded, underequipped, and undermanned (depending on who gets elected). I love the business of soldiering, but I disagree oftentimes with the CEO. Give us bullets to qual with, a rifle with knockdown power, and an ROE that helps us and I'll be happy.

Lad, I wasn't offended, that was sarcasm. I actually like your screen name I'd just like to know how you're getting away with it.

You don't have to call me 'Lad'. I'm a 33 year-old who has a job, a wife, and a mortgage payment, so I consider myself a grown man. If there is an issue with my screen name (I jokingly entered it and because I am not too internet-friendly, I can't figure out how to change it) then I am sure that there is a grievance system that can be utilized to affect change. I think I maintain it because I avoid harassing, abusive posts. If there is an issue, I am certain that they will be on top of it.

shuman14 calls everyone "lad"....not that big of a deal...

on a lighter note...I will say...

Medals are important to soldiers...not the most important thing, but important enough...and if not important now...more than likely they will wonder why they didn't get X or Y that they rated at one time....10 years down the road....

I will say in addition to knowing regs on medals...at least knowing where the regulations are and being able to explain those regs to both junior and senior soldiers is important in their professional development...

once again, not the most important thing, but important enough for an Army regulation....

"General, Most soldiers have no problem with sacrificing their family time, their personal livelihood and will help see the mission though even at the expense of their life while closing with and destroying the enemy...but all they really want to know is...what medals and ribbons or badges will they get?"

-author unknown
-sarcasm at its best on medals and combat.

Clearly people have entered this forum from different backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives on our military. I'll buy Napoleon's maxim concerning medals and ribbons and will agree that medals and ribbons are important to soldiers, true.

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourceFileView?file=Hackworth_093003.htm

However, the late Colonel Hackworth's point in the aforementioned article holds weight, too. Many would criticize his opinions and points of view, true, but in twenty-five years of service, I reckon Hack knew a thing or two.

The Army needs to find a happy medium. The bottom line is this: Joe appreciates a challenge. Joe appreciates accomplishing a hard task. Joe appreciates discipline, tough motivation, and direction. The Joe who doesn't like this stuff is the Joe who either shouldn't have joined or is ready to be an NCO because he's a born leader and has a better idea and a better way.

Joe is an American by birth, raised in a culture that encourages competition, winning, and the desire to be the best---I know it sounds cliche, and it sounds like a facsimile of George C. Scott in the opening scene of "Patton". But it's true.

Because Joe is an American by birth, he intrinsically resents certain things about our Army. Being given a beret and told he is elite. Earning an Army Service Ribbon after OSUT---when he hasn't even served a standard enlistment yet. The Grenade badge. I could go on and on. And as Joe spends some time in the Army and maybe becomes an NCO and sees how things are, he'll learn to resent and question things like medal quotas and people being "hooked up" as Colonel Hackworth poignantly described in his article.

I'm also hearing that green leader tabs are no longer reserved only for combat arms leaders. What's next? What else can people put on their uniforms? The only thing that remains unmolested is the blue infantry cord and the discs. I won't be surprised if that changes, too, and every branch gets its own cord.

Some people have forgotten what makes fighting men tick or they never knew in the first place because they have been hooked up themselves. Just my honest opinion.

Reference the MG above: The CAB and EIB are not worn together, this is a major gig. They are the same category of award, if you have both you wear one or the other. And the two general stars are incorrectly placed, too close together for one thing. And, his unit patch is not the proper distance from the shoulder seam.

One of his ribbons looks like the Cold War Medal!

And Gen. Petraeus does not have a CIB.

I also agree with the above posts that the awards system is off the rails. I have seen people give themselves BSM's and even try to to get PH's they didn't earn. One major problem with the Army awards system was fixed. Achievement level awards and the MSM are now authorized for award in combat zones, they were not at the time of Hack's column. This contributed to the huge number of BSM's that were awarded. The Navy and Marines awarded achievement level awards all along.

I agree that the ASR is dumb...3 out of the 5 services don't recognize it on their uniforms....same with the NCOPDR (minus the USCG which recognizes the NCOPDR w/4 only)....

yeah the Army should clean up it's uniform in terms of badges and doo-dads...maybe the Army could take an AF apporach and stop issuing the ASR....

the grenade badges are just dumb...why do we have it?

I however do find intrinsic value in service ribbons that do not duplicate service (ASR and the AF Training ribbon)...the service ribbons such as overseas ribbons offer up a piece of the puzzle of the soldiers service...it is a resume of service if they wear all of their ribbons. Although you can't tell much in terms of the soldiers character in the awards rack, you can at least tell what they have or have not done....

I personally find it funny to see those leaders who are in charge of mobilizations and high side decisons in official photos with no campaign ribbons/medals....how can they formulate policy if they have never been?...just my take...they are being phased out...but little by little....

There are enough privates and butter bar second lieutenants making multiple trips to OIF and OEF today that tomorrow's sergeants major and generals should have more than adequate combat experience, participation and knowledge. What we are doing today will be our knowledge base for tomorrow.

As an aside, OEF particicpation doesn't equal an Afghanistan Campaign Medal...as is commonly thought.......

But yeah...what you write is true...but over time.

Here is a good thread on medals some see as not worth wearing:

Awards/Ribbons/Badges Not Worth Wearing

There are things I would change about the award system as it stands and some that I would not.

One thing I would change is every Service having different awards for the same thing.

There is no need for Joint, Army, Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard Achievement Medals, there should just be a Military Achievement Medal.

Same goes for the Commendation Medal, Good Conduct Medal, Reserve Good Conduct Medal, etc.

With all the Joint commands, and members transfering between the Services (IE Blue to Green) this would clean up the clutter of the ribbons a little.

Now as to the "low" awards, the ASR, AFTR, Etc. I do see merit in them. While I would like to see consolidation there as well (IE the Military Training Ribbon), there is a purpose to them.

The ASR means a lot to me, it shows the world that I earned the right to be called Soldier. Now for those that have served for awhile, that may not mean as much as it should but for the 17-19 year old Private, BCT/AIT/OSUT is the hardest thing they have EVER done up to that point in life. If there is ever a ribbon any Soldier truely knows that they earned it's the ASR.

And so begins the recognition of their progression and developement in the Service by training and service ribbons.

A Soldier's rack can tell you a lot them. If they have two hashmarks and no GCM, I know they're a problem child. If they're a SPC-4 with a NCOPDR, I know they're ready for SGT and added responsibility.

The same with service medals. If there was only a GWOTEM, ICM and ACM, how whould I know if they got MOBED for a CONUS mission? That's why there's a GWOTSM. Even the non-MOBED add to the fight, that's why there is a NDSM.

What does the future hold? Hard to say, it is, always in motion is the future.

But here's somethings to keep in mind.

I'm sure you know all the Medical Corps (MC, MSC, NC, VC) are grouped into one AMEDD Regiment.

Did you know that the Ordinance, Quartermaster, and Transportation merged this month into the new Logistics Corps? Their new Branch insignia is a crossed Key and Cannon over a Ship's Wheel.

It made sense. In the Directorate system used by Corps and Armys (OMD, OPD, etc.) they were already grouped together and made to work as one.

Did you know that there is "talk" of other Branches merging into one?

Could a Maneuver and Fires Corps be in the works?

Can you see the quad-cross Branch insignia of a Rifle, Saber, Cannon and Missile?

I can, and if you really look at who works together regularly, you will too.

Could this be "one" reason the Armor School moved to Benning?

Food for thought.

When I was in Kyrgyzstan conducting a mountain warfare MTT with the Kyrgyz soldiers, I asked some of the senior men (through an interpreter of course) what they did in the old Red Army.

Many replied 'Ground Forces' or, as I expected, 'Motor Rifles.' They explained that they could be the equivalent of a light fighter at one duty station and a tread head in a T-72 at another. Everyone had exposure to every kind of rifle and crew served weapon and armored vehicle, from machine guns to surface-to-air missiles and mortars. Although the degree of proficiency cannot be known.

Then they went on to curse the Russian culture, lamented that Caucasian Russians stayed in Moscow drinking Vodka while minority Kyrgyz, Uzbek, and Kazak (spelling may be off) troops did the fighting and dying in Afghanistan in the 80s. Our terp commented that he'd have a pension equal to $200 per month if he retired from the Red Army but earns the equal of $20 per month because he retired from the financially-strapped Kyrgyz military.

I read once after the Ribbon Creek incident at Parris Island, when a DI conducted a night hump with some trainees he deemed too soft and ended up drowning a couple in the process, that the DoD considered having the Army absorb the Marines as some kind of Naval Infantry branch to cover down on the Light, Airborne, and Mechanized Infantry units.

Irked the hell out of a lot of senior people. That idea died and died quickly.

These Gens of today would not rate the time of day with most SF NCO's and older field grades I see once a year. Yes, Bargewell was and is for real as he also has a DSC, and; he went from PFC to SSG in combat with CCN,MACVSOG. That itself is damn impressive. What I see these days are Army Gens who have the Mech INF and CAV mindset.Had I taken the SF NCO's and the yards in the Company, and put their asses in APC's riding down the damn road-we would have been KIA or WIA by an PRG. IED's my ass- they are mines. Betrayus has rewritten COIN and the Army SFOC had a CI portion and a UW portion to the SF Officer's course in 67 prior to him. He did not reinvent the wheel.

All the old SF NCO's I respect tell me that the CIB and their Master Blaster badge are the most important. I agree.

Sorry: RPG.

"Betrayus"?

Why do you feel the need to disrespect the general like that? The man was a career Infantry officer highly regarded by many people who served with or under him. It's not his fault he never got a CIB, he was just never in the right unit at the right time. Petraeus earned his stars by being a squared-away stud, not because he was a paper-pushing suck up (unlike so many others).