Hi,

I don't have a lot of information yet, but my husband was warned from his squad leader that he should get ready for "official" word that he's being chaptered out. I can only assume it's because he's been in remedial pt for being overweight 3-4 months (which means he does 3 hours of pt every day- and he has to use machines so they can make sure he's burning enough calories- he has to burn 500 from 5:30 AM to 6:30 AM and 500 from 5 PM to 6 PM plus normal pt in the morning as well) and has not had any change to his weight at all, not gain or loss. He passes his pt tests except the 2 mile because he's on profile, so he's just there for not passing tape.

I think he'll be getting a chapter 18 which is honorable, right? I mean since there is no official word, it probably is just a threat? But his NCO has been talking about it for a few days, after some NCO meeting, and he seems pretty worried himself- and has been reassuring my husband he'll give him the time off he needs to get all his stuff in order, as well as being annoyed that my husband said he isn't going to fight it if they initiate it. He's sick of remedial being used as a punishment, and he's been on profile for most of the last 2 years for chronic shin splints/ stress fractures anyway. He also has had some problems with the 1st sgt in the past- initiated by the first sgt, not my husband! And the former platoon sgt who works in headquarters now until he gets out said to my husband "They're out to get you."

So I'm trying to prepare just in case, I haven't found any information on what benefits and financial assistance we will have if this happens, I'm hoping someone knows. We're in Germany, do we have to pay to get us and all our stuff back? We have a ton of loans we've had to take out to survive here, for a car, to get by when we initially got here, to survive having to pay for a German hotel out of pocket for a few weeks, for car rentals and extra gas when we lived 1/2 hour away from our house in temp. housing, for new class A's, etc... If he's involuntarily separated, is that like being laid off or fired from a civilian job? Because I think a few of our loans have that extra insurance in case of job loss, so can we use that?

I know he doesn't get separation pay since he's only been in 3 1/2 years, but do we get ANYTHING? Otherwise, even if the army pays to send us back, won't they just be dumping us in America broke and homeless with a pile of debts? Anyway, if anyone has been through this and knows what exactly the army will and will not do for us, I'd appreciate it!

Yes, separation under Chapter 18 (Failure to Meet Body Fat Standards) is honorable for him in this situation. However, let me ask, has he been screened by medical personnel yet to see if this isn't caused by a medical condition? Before he was put on the weight control program he had to be screened prior to see if him being overweight isn't caused by a disorder, genetic medical condition etc. That's per regulation AR 600-9. And remedial PT isn't punishment. His leadership has every right to make him do remedial PT to help him get off the program, it says so in AR 600-9. Now if him being overweight isn't caused by a medical condition then he has to be allowed a reasonable opportunity to get off the program before separation proceedings can begin on him. Now "reasonable opportunity" can be left up to individual interpretation. My guess is depending on how much he's overtape will decide how much time he's allowed to lose the weight. Certainly 3-4 months isn't enough time. So it might just be a scare tactic that they're using. I've seen some overweight soldiers go for years without being chaptered from the service, it all depends on how strict the command wants to enforce it. Bottom line is: if he's showing steady progress on losing weight then his command more than likely won't separate him. If he's staying the same or getting worse then they'll probably take action at some point.

Now about the separation part. Why do you feel the Army is obligated to provide for you financially if your husband is chaptered? Remember that he's the one who signed the contract and took the oath. He agreed to abide by all regulations and orders issued by the officers appointed over him. This includes remaining physically fit and within the Army's weight control tolerance. He's not retiring so he won't get any pension, he's not being medically chaptered so we won't receive any disability compensation. All he'll get is his G.I. Bill (if he applied for it) and a pat on the back. No, the Army isn't going to dump you on the street homeless and with a pile of debt. The Army has a system in place to take care of it's Veterans as they transition to civilian life. It's called the Army Career and Alumni Program (ACAP) and they offer job seeking assistance, relocation assistance, etc. He'll be afforded the opportunity to utilize ACAP services before being separated.

Ok, well not to sound disrespectful, but #1 no he has not been medically screened, I don't know what command you are under but in every company my husband has been in, they do it their own way. Which means that he's never been counseled, never been examined by someone for a medical problem, and never met with the "nutritionist" he's supposed to see. Actually, he didn't know it but he was flagged the day he separated from his old unit. They just didn't tell him.

#2 Remedial pt ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE punishment. In this case, it is. My husband (and everyone in the program) does pt from 5:30 am to 7:30 AM, and again from 4:30 pm to 6 pm. If you have a no pt profile, you still have to go, and sit there and watch. A woman in the program has said she was going to call IG and the 1st sgt said "Go ahead. I'll tell you right now, I've dealt with them before, and whatever IG tells me is a suggestion." My husband's best friend passed tape, passed the pt test, but he's in remedial pt. Because the 1st sgt told him to, and he has that right. Of course the day before he was told to go to remedial pt, he reported a theft from his room to the MPs, and the MPs spoke to the 1st Sgt and asked why he was told NOT to go through the MPs, apparently the 1st Sgt got in trouble, because it was the company's fault that the stuff was stolen. So in this case it was not only punishment, but retaliation. And if you are sick, and need to go to sick call? You get make up remedial pt on the weekends. So while maybe in YOUR company remedial pt is a fair and totally justified way of helping people lose the excess weight, or get themselves able to pass the pt test, it isn't that way everywhere.

About separation, I don't think the fact that he's being chaptered out should be said like we don't deserve anything from the army. If he is in for another 2 years before they chapter him out, he'll get severance pay from the army when he's separated. In fact, most civilian companies provide some sort of "severance package" for terminated employees. But the army is not a civilian company, and I did not say that I expected the army to provide for us. I didn't ask for a house, a car or even a free meal. I asked what they will and won't do. I would not ask for more than the GI bill and a pat on the back if we were currently in the country that we'll be living in post army, but then again we'd already have a place we'd be living in, and I would be able to get a job even before he's out, wouldn't I?

My question was purely what to expect. We are unable to save while we are here, and we do not have a home or family to go to back in the US. I don't want any special favors, I just want to know what we're entitled to, no more and no less.

Anyway, thanks for your response, I guess I'll see when I see. Until then there's no point in worrying.

most states will give unemployment compensation for honorably discharged vets.

and you have to look at it from the army side of this. at one point your husband was within weight and did not have a problem with PT. So what has changed since basic training?

The shin splints reason will not fly with the military. When I was in I had a back injury from a jump and the doctors just gave me stuff for pain and sent me off to PT every day. I ended up on remedial PT and had to suck it up charge on. That is why you won't get much sympathy, half of the army has shin spints.

shin splints are caused by not stretching properly, a simple exercise that prevent them is to stand with your feet under a ledge or under a piece of furniture with just enough clearence so that if you stand on your heels and lift your toes that you will touch the ledge. the key is to have resistance on your toes. you will feel the mucles in your shin being exercised. Also ice the shins.



If he does have some medical condition that is causing his weight, then he better go to sick call and beg them to do some tests.

It would've been nice if you mentioned that situation when you first made the thread. But you didn't so don't get upset when you fail to disclose certain information and details.

If your husband feels that they are using remedial PT as punishment and can't resolve anything directly with the 1SG then he needs to utilize his NCO Support Channel and Chain of Command. The open door policy exists because of these types of situations. Trust me, someone higher than the 1SG will be willing to look into the matter if a big enough stink is made about it and enough soldiers come forward.

I'm sorry to hear that your husband's doesn't follow the regulations when it comes to flagging soldiers and putting them on the weight control program, not all units in the Army follow the procedure correctly. Every unit doesn't have the option of "doing it their own way." There's only one way of doing it and that's the right way. Again, this is a matter that should be directed up the Chain of Command. And the Inspector General would probably find this situation serious as it's not a suggestion to follow regulations, it's an order. So the 1SG can't dodge that.

And there's other criteria that need to be met for involuntary separation severence pay, not just have 6 years of service. For instance, you can't receive severance pay if the member is separated during their initial term of enlistment. Your husband won't be separated while overseas. In order to be separated from the service while serving OCONUS you have to apply for it and meet certain criteria. You and your family will be returned stateside for him to be processed for separation.

The Army isn't going to leave you high and dry. Unlike your husband's unit, there are places that follow protocol and treat soldiers properly.

quote:

Originally posted by 15990687:
The shin splints reason will not fly with the military. When I was in I had a back injury from a jump and the doctors just gave me stuff for pain and sent me off to PT every day. I ended up on remedial PT and had to suck it up charge on. That is why you won't get much sympathy, half of the army has shin spints.

Sorry- what I should have said is that although shin splints is on his profile, it is just for lack of anything else to classify it as. At the end of this month, he gets a permanent profile, no amount of resting, nor stretching, nor physical therapy has helped since 2005. Incidentally, his remedial pt instructors have informed them that stretching takes too much of their time, so if they want to stretch they have to do it on their own time. Same for cool down. He's seen 4 doctors for his legs, 2 military, 2 civilian. The civilians have both said unhealed stress fractures, and the military have both said "Shin splints." And yes, he passed tape (NEVER weight, he's a very muscular man). When he was in MEPS (because the recruiter had him living off of only magnesium citrite and stacker 2s for a week before he went) and during BCT and AIT (he loves running, and when he did it regularly, he dropped weight at an incredible speed) however after AIT he never once passed tape. His old unit had incredible leadership, and the 1st sgt was really in touch with her soldiers on an individual level, and she saw the problem started when his legs started hurting and he couldn't run anymore, so she never flagged him, and told him she'd wait until he got off profile to ride him about weight. When she left, he was put in remedial, and eventually flagged. He's never failed a PT test though, for a while he could force himself to run fast enough, and when he couldn't, he's had nearly back to back profiles.

I didn't put any of that in the OP, or anything about his unit's "policy" for remedial pt because it really didn't have anything to do with my question.

Thanks for the info regarding my question, though, interesting about unemployment, that's good to know anyway. My parents recently moved into a 2 br apartment with my youngest brother, looks like we may have to take over their living room or something, if anything does happen. It's good to know there are options for us.

Thank you both ^_^

a little advice, if the problem is more then shin splints, then make sure his medical records reflect what the medical problem exactly is..

i can tell you first hand that I had a back injury and the last 9 months of my military service were in pain. and not diagnosing the problem is a game the army plays. if he has gone to his medical clinic and received a profile, and the problem is still not better.. then he needs to go back and demand they figure out why. ( they didn't do any tests on me until I exploded on the doctor at the clinic. it took months for the final straw for me ).

the army is horrible at diagnosing medical problems, but usually pretty good at treatment once and if they figure it out. ( actually the doctors at the troop clinics I always thought were the bottom of the barrel. i trusted the army medics more. ).

The VA hospitals are the opposite. they are excellent at diagnosing, but slow at treating. ( has to do with budget ). but the VA diagnosed my problems pretty quickly, i am actually impressed with the VA doctors for the most part.

but he needs it in his medical records. simple as that. he should actually go to the medical clinic and say this is ridiculous and that he doesn't not think they are right about the diagnosis since he is not improving. and it is hindering his military career. ( even if they tell him to go chase himself, at least get it on a sick call slip ).

and he needs to push back on his chain of command.

I think your issue here is that the nature of his medical condition will probably be attributed to his weight.

it is ashame he can't get his weight within regulation. basically the weight issue gives the army a way out that makes it your husband's fault.

as far as being chaptered.. that takes a while.. he will not be gone in a week.

I'd say the problem with this whole unit is that there is no way to push back at the chain of command. There's a 1st Sgt, who pretty much runs the show, the company commander, who gives the 1st sgt free reign, because he's leaving in a very short time, and there's no one higher than that attached to this company at this base. So basically there's no where for the soldiers to go.

My husband has his 1st medical appointment, or whatever it's called, on Monday. They said he'll get looked at and blood work to make sure that his failure to drop weight isn't disease related. I think they should have looked into that BEFORE putting him in the overweight program and remedial pt, but whatever.

I know they'll try the bs about his legs hurting because he's overweight, but he passed tape at the time his legs were hurting. On his records it shows the first time he went into the Dr about his legs was March of 2005, and he was flagged for being overweight March 2007.

I looked at his profile, it says "for chronic leg pain." If that isn't an abstract, over generalization I don't know what is.

Hopefully he'll have some luck at the clinic now that the focus isn't on retention and getting him back out to fight. He contracted TB when he was deployed, and we think asthma as well, he can't breathe deeply when he's running or when he's cold, plus the "chronic leg pain." Sometimes, he feels guilty, when he thinks of all the army has given him, and he's given back so little... (sarcasm high!)

So when he's chaptered out, he's eligible to go to VA hospitals then? He was deployed for a year, so that makes him a vet right? Or does he need a full 20?

I have to tell you that the story keeps growing and changing. Now he has TB. TB is a serious condition. It requires serious treatment my competent medical doctors.

Start with the doctor. Medical Officers have a lot more authority than a first Sgt. They can put him on medical hold or the Army equivalent. That would be part of a treatment program or a Medical Board.

If you are going to ask for advise, give the group enough information to give you good advice. Understand that all units have a chain of command. Someone is over his CC.

He had a doctors appoint this Monday. What did they say?

IF YOU WANT THE PERSON WHO HAS T.B.TO SEE A COMPETENT DOCTOR I WOULD STRONGLY
ADVISE HIM TO SEE A DOCTOR IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR,AS YOU DO NOTHING BUT DEAL WITH



"PROFESSIONAL STUPIDITY"



WHEN DEALING WITH DOCTORS? IN THE V.A.SYSTEM !!!!!!!!!!!!

VICTIM OF THEIR STUPIDITY

GHOSTRIDER 189

quote:

Originally posted by Dave_M:
I have to tell you that the story keeps growing and changing. Now he has TB. TB is a serious condition. It requires serious treatment my competent medical doctors.

Start with the doctor. Medical Officers have a lot more authority than a first Sgt. They can put him on medical hold or the Army equivalent. That would be part of a treatment program or a Medical Board.

If you are going to ask for advise, give the group enough information to give you good advice. Understand that all units have a chain of command. Someone is over his CC.

He had a doctors appoint this Monday. What did they say?

Yeah well the question WAS what benefits is someone entitled to upon being involuntarily discharged from the army for being overweight- an honorable discharge, when they are overseas and don't have a home in the US.

The TB had nothing to do with my OP. He tested neg, went to Iraq for a year, came back, tested positive, had a chest xray, it came back negative, so they said he was fine, just needed chest xrays instead of TB screening from now on. They didn't even think my son and I needed to be checked for it. The only reason I even brought it up was to point out that he has had no luck in the nearly 4 years he's been in the army having any competent medical care.

He has weight problems because he can't run or do any impact exercise with his leg pain. He's been told for 3 years that it's "shin splints" and he's been on anti inflammatory medication, anti seizure meds (doc was grasping at straws at this point) and even percoset. When he's been able to see civilian doctors they say it seems like stress fractures, but the clinic insists that he sees "army doctors" who claim it's shin splints, and he needs to rest it. He's been on profile for most of the last 3 years, and he even sleeps in our living room because it hurts his legs too badly to walk up the stairs to our bedroom. It's beyond just an "army" issue now, and I'll be glad to see the last of this BS.

He's in the process of being chaptered out, he's finished his phase 2, but even though this unit's policy is no more pt after the phase 2, the minute he was done with his, his platoon leader "informally" changed the policy and he still has to do pt.

This unit does not actually have anyone higher in the chain of command than the 1st sgt, even the commander does not argue with him over anything- and they are told from every level in the chain of command that there is no open door policy and you cannot go around chain of command for anything. They are not attached to any other unit at this base, they've been attached to 3 units since we've been here, none within 3 hours of here, and there's no organization with them, this unit is pretty much self contained- I don't think many people in the unit actually know who they are attached to anymore, or where that unit is based.

So I'm sorry to sound argumentative or ungrateful for your advice, but the truth is that none of the soldiers in this unit have the ability to go through the chain of command. I don't feel that that's special for him or anything.

Anyway, according to his phase 2, (the doctor who did it is actually MY doctor, so I know he's a really good doctor) he has pes planus (flat feet) which have caused the shin splints- which are actually called medial tibial stress syndrome. Nothing is being done about it, of course, but at least we have some more knowledge. When we get insurance from civilian jobs, when we're out of the army I guess he'll have to see a podiatrist and make sure he doesn't need surgery to correct it, and get the corrective insoles done.