http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/12/navy_liberty_071217w/
Anybody ever heard of such strict and over bearing liberty restrictions????

Think this is bad? my last duty station was the Yorktown CG-48 2000-2001, if we were outside the US IE Jamacia Bahamas or whatever as a chief who had been in the Navy for over 20 years, former MOTU/FTSCLANT tech who had traveled by myself to the farthest reaches of the world to do tech assists I could not go on liberty by myself. In the US, sure no problem. Now here is the ironic part, if I wanted to take leave while in wherever then I or any new E-1 for that matter could go where we wnarted on our own.

Make sense to you???

quote:

Originally posted by goondawg:
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/12/navy_liberty_071217w/
Anybody ever heard of such strict and over bearing liberty restrictions????

I have, but not since I left Yokosuka back in April. It's all true, but it's not new. It's been that way for over a year and a half. I'm glad someone is finally paying attention to it because it's crap. One of the last things I did before I left my ship was pull down the general order from CNFJ hanging in the admin p-way that explicitly referred to the restrictions as "punitive in nature." I still have it with my service record. However, I have to disagree with the part of the article that says that Kitty Hawk sailors are living under the most severe restrictions. Every ship out there, except maybe the Blue Ridge that falls directly under 7th fleet and is not subject to the strike group commander's orders, has it at least as bad. I would even go so far as to say that it's worse for the destroyer squadron because not only do their O-5 CO's have less pull than a Cruiser or Carrier CO, they also have another step in the chain of command that can and does pose additional liberty restrictions. One of them was that if a sailor in your chain of command f'ed up enough to be noticed out in town, his LCPO personally had to write a letter to the Commodore explaining exactly what he (the LCPO) did to prevent the incident from occuring and what he had failed to do and lessons learned for the future. The Department Head, the Division Officer, and the Chief then had to meet with the Commodore personally and explain, essentially, why they sucked so much. Your guy goes out on leave locally for a couple weeks, and a few days into it decide to steal a $99 bicycle? Nothing you could do to stop him? Too bad, you must have failed some how, now go tell the Commodore what it was. Must have been because he didn't have a liberty plan to account for all l4 days of leave. Yes. If he'd had a liberty plan, you'd have been able to see that he intended to get drunk and steal a bike so he could get to the subway station faster. You could have then counseld him on the matter and informed him that stealing waswrong. A clear failure of leadership at the CPO and division officer level. What a crock.

Sounds like brass trying to cover their butts...and when things go wrong...they can just blaim the CPO....glad I got out when I did...the 7th fleet used to be the place to get stationed...not now!

I'm sure the Chiefs over there are just thrilled to be "designated babysitters"

The reason why the rules are this strict is because Sailors there can't treat Yokosuka like it's their home port. They treat it like Pattaya Beach 24/7. They can't drink responsibly, and get into a myriad of different incidents out in town. It's not limited to any age group or paygrade. The only way 7th fleet could control it was to crank down the restrictions. Trusting them to act like adults on their own recognizance didn't work. The standard buddy system didn't work. The only solution is for the Sailors to fix it themselves by acting like adults, and not hedonistic idiots when they are in Yokosuka. How do I know this? I was the Command DAPA on the Kitty Hawk for 2 years.

Thanks Chief. It's a shame that the good shipmates have to be penalized for the actions of the idiots.

It's unfortunate that some individuals cannot behave themselves in foreign ports. It's also unfortunate that their problems not only reflect poorly for the Navy, but also the United States.


All it takes is a shipmate to watch out for another shipmate, let him known what behavior is not acceptable. If this isn't happening, people get in trouble.

When I was in the 7th fleet...our CO knew how to take care of troublemakers...period...he never sluffed things off on the cheifs...and trust me...the cheifs knew how to handle trouble makers too!!!!! Today's Navy makes me proud in many ways...but this definately isn't one of them!

Thank god that's only in Japan that kind of stunt would never fly in San Diego.

This subject makes me wonder if there are Marine brigs on carriers now. They definitly took care of whatever problems showed up on the Saratoga.

quote:

Originally posted by GerryRM3:
This subject makes me wonder if there are Marine brigs on carriers now. They definitly took care of whatever problems showed up on the Saratoga.

There are no marines permenantly stationed on carriers anymore, but they do have Navy run brigs on carriers and big deck amphibs.

Honestly, these restrictions aren't due to a gradual decline in the conduct of US sailors ashore. They are the direct result of the murder of a Japanese woman by a KHK sailor back in January of '06 followed by a relatively minor incident a week or two later that convinced the Japanese that we were not sincere in our grief. Believe me, I wish to god the restrictions were due to a lack of discipline among Yokosuka sailors. Then I wouldn't have felt like such a tool everytime I had to read the latest revision of the liberty policy to the division, or had to explain why the ship was being put on lock down due to a liberty incident. There were far fewer examples of stereotypical sailor ***-hatery when I left in April of this year compared to when I showed up in July of '05. Unfortunately now any minor incident is grounds of an international incident (as far as CNFJ is concerned that is, whether or not any Japanese officials think it's worth a fuss) and entire ships are getting hit hard due to single and isolated acts of poor judgement by a single sailor acting in violation of the liberty policies in spite of his command's (up and down the chain of command) best efforts to be good "ambassadors" of the US. If any of you who had been there before were to go back now, you would be shocked by the complete lack of bar activity in Yokosuka. The honch area outside the main gate as practically empty. Most of the sailors you see there are on shore patrol (it's kind of funny and sad seeing a **** load of shore patrol roving streets that have been vacated of sailors for months).

If you haven't been in Yoko since about March of '06, just take my word for it. A lot has changed. I don't even want to think about how much more crap has been piled on in the 8 months since I left.

Honestly, I almost wish they'd just start court-martialing people. It's better than what they were doing when I left (punishing the entire ship).

I was thinking on being stationed in Japan but from the looks of things I think it would be best if I went to the west coast. IE San Diego, Whidbey Island, or Lemoore. I can't believe I just said Lemoore but with these restrictions to liberty you might as well stay on the ship. I feel bad for married members filling out there liberty chits. Do they have a section on the liberty chit that says I am going to go home have sex with my wife and approval box that says yes or no?

OldSailor88: I have to say, you don't sound like you were a very good DAPA. Needed something for an Eval, eh?

I'm not spamming here folks, but NavyTimes took everything they have in that article from my blog. The editor e-mailed me a couple weeks ago and told me they were writing it. It was implied they would include a link to my site, but they never did. Anyway, if you want the complete truth about the liberty restrictions, read the posts and comments at my site: http://fewl.net.

Gerry, this isn't spam...you can see for yourself that this is where all the liberty restriction info originated.

V/R
IT2

Jim its only spam if you blasted it all over every forum.
Good to see your still kicking. Have a Merry Christmas.

I wonder if the same liberty restrictions apply in Sasebo Japan??????

Yes, same liberty restrictions apply in Sasebo. CNFJ and 7th Fleet have ensured restrictions are throughout Japan for Navy Personnel and even some apply to SOFA Sponsored dependents. I had some good memories of Yokosuka from the late 90's followed by an outstanding tour in Europe. To my regret, I returned to Yokosuka in 2004 and only obtained my freedom this April. I have never ever wanted to transfer so badly in the past 18 years and I was on Shore Duty! There is a reason they are offering AIP to sucker new blood over there. My buddies on Sea duty there will never return and most first term Sailors won't think twice about Re-enlisting. Duty in Korea and Okinawa isn't much better these days. Europe on the other hand is the total opposite and leaving was the biggest mistake of my career. Living on Whidbey Island might be a little quiet and boring for the single guys, but it is heaven compared to duty in Japan now.

quote:

Originally posted by StupidJim:
OldSailor88: I have to say, you don't sound like you were a very good DAPA. Needed something for an Eval, eh?

I'm not spamming here folks, but NavyTimes took everything they have in that article from my blog. The editor e-mailed me a couple weeks ago and told me they were writing it. It was implied they would include a link to my site, but they never did. Anyway, if you want the complete truth about the liberty restrictions, read the posts and comments at my site: http://fewl.net.

Gerry, this isn't spam...you can see for yourself that this is where all the liberty restriction info originated.

V/R
IT2

Wow, Jim. Do you still have that email from them? That really sucks that they just took your materials and made it look like their own work, taking full credit for it. I'm very much an advocate for intellectual property rights on the internet.

I'm so ticked off they did this that I'm going to email their editorial staff. They even took your document and altered it, airbrushing the name of the ship off the top.

A couple of really bad things happen over there and it is the Navy's fault?
I think that instead of being PC that the US needs to tell them to guard themselves if they won't let our ships or our shore duty personel have a true home port there.

It doesn't sound like the guys and gals there are any worse than on any ship or command that is stateside.

quote:

Originally posted by gelvik:
A couple of really bad things happen over there and it is the Navy's fault?

I don't blame the Japanese. Most of the crap that comes out is of a CYOA nature and the more levels there are in the chain of command the worse it gets. The present situation is entirely of the Navy's (that is the senior leadership in Japan) making. CNFJ doesn't want another major incident to happen and get the US kicked out of Japan. But, if such an incident does occur, it will go something lie this:

Japanese Official to US Ambassador: One of your sailors murdered a Japanese citizen. This displeases us and make us wonder if the mutual defense treaty we have is still in our best interests.

POTUS TO CNFJ: WTF, how could you let this happen? Because of you we might get kicked out of Japan!
CNFJ to POTUS: It’s not me sir! I told them they couldn’t drink after midnight or alone and required commands to start having their sailors fill out liberty plans. I did everything I could.

CNFJ to CFAY/CSG5: WTF, how could you let this happen? Because of you we might get kicked out of Japan!
CFAY/CSG5 to CNFJ: It’s not our fault sir, we tripled the number of shore patrol in the honch, instigated a policy of command-wide recalls and training in the event of major liberty incidents, and stepped up the random breathalyzers at the front gate.

CSG5 to DESRON15: WTF, how could you let this happen? Because of you we might get kicked out of Japan!
DESRON15 to CSG5: It’s not my fault sir, I told the ships they were supposed to be spot checking their liberty plans regularly and personally require the entire chain of command from LCP to Department Head to come to me and tell me where they went wrong when there’s a liberty incident.

DESRON15 to Destroyer CO: WTF, how could you let this happen? Because of you we might get kicked out of Japan!
Destroyer CO to DESRON15: It’s not my fault sir, I personally recalled the entire ship three times and kept the crew overnight twice without even getting orders from you. I also made my Chiefs and divos read the liberty policy, all 70 pages of it, to their divisions in its entirety to get the point across. I’ve also been hammering sailors with 45/45, halfx2, and busts for any violation of the liberty policy.

Destroyer CO to Dept Head: WTF, how could you let this happen? Because of you we might get kicked out of Japan!
Dept Head to CO: It’s not my fault sir, I personally recalled the entire department twice on my own for minor incidents just to be sure everyone knew we were serious. I also require my Chiefs and Divos to do 100% spot checks on liberty plans at least one night a week, even though DESRON only require 10%.

Dept Head to Divo: WTF, how could you let this happen? Because of you we might get kicked out of Japan!
Divo to Dept Head: WTF, he killed someone, if he didn’t know that was wrong already what the hell was I supposed to do?

Divo to Chief: WTF Chief, why didn't you tell SN Timmy that murder was wrong, now we're going to get kicked out of Japan!
Chief to Divo: **** you sir.

And so clearly, as you can see, it will obviously be a failure of leadership at the division officer level because divos suck at blaiming chiefs for things that really aren't their fault and getting them to believe it.

quote:

I think that instead of being PC that the US needs to tell them to guard themselves if they won't let our ships or our shore duty personel have a true home port there.

The US isn't there as a gesture of good will. The US is there because a forward oeprating base with a carrier strike group that is surge ready 365 days a year provides a certain amount of flexibility that you just can't get when you've got to send a strike group clear across the Pacific (quite a journey as you know) before you can respond to a crisis on that side of the world. The only alternative is to have one more carrier underway on deployment at a given time, which would mean increasing the time between maintenance availabilities or buying a couple more carriers to pick up the added burded. Beleive me. We're not there for the Japanese. In fact I'd say that in spite of having a prohobition on waging anything but a defensive war, they've got a pretty damned impressive fleet of modern warships. I honestly think they could do a pretty decent job of defending themselves without US help. They may not have any carriers, but who needs them when your biggest threat is just a few hundred miles to the west?

quote:

It doesn't sound like the guys and gals there are any worse than on any ship or command that is stateside.

There we agree. They deserve better.

On another note, it's going to be a hell of a time when the GW relieves the KHK next year and you get an influx of 3000 sailors who will have no clue what they're getting themselves into. I would not be surprised if the entire base was locked down within a week of their arrival. I just hope I can avoid getting orders to the GW out of prototype.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: AoiSonlee,

Originally posted by StupidJim:
OldSailor88: I have to say, you don't sound like you were a very good DAPA. Needed something for an Eval, eh?

StupidJim: You chose your name wisely, my friend. I did the DAPA job because I wanted to. I did it knowing that I didn't have a chance to make Chief for 5 years. I did it because it helped me see better why I should stay sober. Because you see, StupidJim, I'm an alcoholic, and I know the alcoholic brain better than normal brains do. While I was DAPA, I increased the Command Referrals because people trusted me to take care of their Sailors. I reduced the number of alcohol related incidents significantly, but alas, StupidJim, there will always be someone to play the fool. The worst of these restrictions, i.e. the active liberty plan that requires your Chief's notification, happened after I left. Someone decided to punch out a 60 year old Japanese lady so that he could steal 3000 yen from her purse. He ruptured her liver, and she bled out before she reached the hospital. So, StupidJim, always make sure you know who and what you are talking about before you decide to live up to your name.

With no respect intended whatsoever,
The OldSailor

I can see some of the restrictions having a effect, but a liberty plan to include a date with one's spouse? What if they wanted to get away from eveyone and make whoopee? I can see it now, Chief, I need a date with my wife. Nope not unless I can come alomg with you and watch! I need a call-in every 10 min. Just a little levity here though.

Wow, I thought fleet sailors are supposed to have a fun time when finally at port. I'm glad I chose to be a dirt sailor instead.

We used to. Man, I remember some good times while I was at sea. Liberty ports were great! I don't know why saiulors can't be trusted anymore. I understand the buddy system, that is a must overseas. How about the officers? Do they need to call-in to the CO every day and night while in town? While on the mighty Ike we pulled into toulon and the weather got real rough that night. Alot of sailors got stranded on the beach in town and slept in school gyms and such. I cna see it now, damn the weather and all, get back to the ship or you will all be written up! Some did because they had duty the next morning and knew they should have stayed onboard, but that was when times were more lenient I guess.

Jerry, when were you aboard the IKE? I was onboard from right after commissioning in Nov 77 until June 1979.

I haven't been here long enough (2 months) to fully understand the issues, but I can definitely tell you that a lot of people here are completely miserable. Morale is pretty low.

And, since honestly, I'm the only one here who is part of the demographic that is getting into trouble (for the most part...) here I guess my views are warranted. Since I'm one of the DDGs out here life isn't quite as bad as for someone on the Hawk, which, in stories that I'm sure are exaggerated, has a reputation something like most federal prisons, including gangs. The liberty plans are annoying, yes (especially during the current stand-down period) but the best advice I could give to anyone coming to Yokosuka is to stay out of sight, i.e., leave Yokosuka as much as possible. There's nothing really here anyway, and you don't have to go very far at all until you are out of the Navy's AOR. We've been fortunate not to have any divisional, departmental or ship-wide problems since I've been here which could be influence my somewhat rosy view of things, but it's not all bad. It's totally stupid, yes, but not as Stalinian to live under as it may seem.

-OSSA-

"And NOW, Live from Washington, DC - the latest hot television show..."The Blame Game" - sponsored by The Media Circus." <'Applause' sign> Come join us as we 'place the blame' for hurricanes, tornadoes, drunken behavior, global warming, global cooling, and anything else we can think of! Remember our slogan: "Someone must be to blame - and it ain't us!"

I say, hang a sign on the island of the Kitty Hawk that says: "Remember Pearl Harbor"! When I was 8 years old, I watched hundreds of Japanese planes bomb my 'backyard' at Schofield and kill thousands of US sailors at Pearl. I guess no one has the cajones to remind those bastards of that!

Furthermore, discipline used to be administered swiftly and at the lowest level in the boat. Didn't take anything more than the Chief of the Boat to 'suggest' that some recalcitrant sailor be shown the 'error of his ways' - and the problem promptly was resolved. Nowadays, everything I read mentions 'investigations', 'boards of inquiry', and, of course, the ubiquitous 'JAG' (rhymes with 'gag' - as in 'gag me with a spoon').

In the 50's and 60's, Yoko was a great liberty port - Thieves Alley was the center of activity. Cheap booze, cheap women, cheap Mikimoto pearls, and cheap Noritake china. Everyone got lots of each of those 'commodities'. The latter two were generally 'guilt offerings' to wives in the States for dalliance with the other two. The occasional drunk was dealt with quickly and efficiently - generally by their shipmates, but sometimes by the SPs, who would lug the offender back to the main gate and toss him through.

We lost a JO, once. An All Hands search party found him the next day, after a diligent search of The Alley. He had passed out in the head of "The Black Dahlia" bar (at their grand opening). We found him wrapped around the 'porcelain echo chamber' - still sound asleep. He had been there so long, his right arm had atrophied in the 'curled' position. Had to take him to the base hospital to try and get it 'unfrozen'. Took a long time - weeks - before he could unbend it all the way. Skipper figured he had suffered enough and he didn't even wind up 'in hack'. Don't imagine that sort of thing would happen today. The crew was merciless...on a smokeboat, there were only 8 or 9 officers, anyway. Salutes were reserved for The Colors. But the crew kept saluting him to see if he could return it! Hilarious. I don't think he ever drank outside his house, again.

Ah, well - we reap what we sow! No accountability. Someone else has to be to blame. No cajones. No leadership.

Rant over.

"Mack the Knife"
CDR USN (Ret)

quote:

Originally posted by 6396992:
"And NOW, Live from Washington, DC - the latest hot television show..."The Blame Game" - sponsored by The Media Circus." <'Applause' sign> Come join us as we 'place the blame' for hurricanes, tornadoes, drunken behavior, global warming, global cooling, and anything else we can think of! Remember our slogan: "Someone must be to blame - and it ain't us!"



Furthermore, discipline used to be administered swiftly and at the lowest level in the boat. Didn't take anything more than the Chief of the Boat to 'suggest' that some recalcitrant sailor be shown the 'error of his ways' - and the problem promptly was resolved. Nowadays, everything I read mentions 'investigations', 'boards of inquiry', and, of course, the ubiquitous 'JAG' (rhymes with 'gag' - as in 'gag me with a spoon').

The occasional drunk was dealt with quickly and efficiently - generally by their shipmates, but sometimes by the SPs, who would lug the offender back to the main gate and toss him through.

Ah, well - we reap what we sow! No accountability. Someone else has to be to blame. No cajones. No leadership.

Rant over.

"Mack the Knife"
CDR USN (Ret)

This ought to be reprinted and have everybody from the CO down on the Kitty Hawk sign it.

Thank you for your endorsement, Gerry - but I fear the root of the problem is far up the food chain. However, change has to start somewhere. As the old saying goes: "If not now, when? If not me, who?"

But it takes courage. Courage to say: "I'm going to take care of my sailors; treat 'em with respect; treat 'em like adults"! You see, I hear it all the time - in the civilian world as well as in military circles - "Those [employees/sailors] act like children!" Of course - what else would you expect? You treat them like children. How demeaning! An adult with family responsibilities, with leadership roles in communities, sports, churches, whatever are suddenly told they have to ask permission to go to the head [conceptually, maybe actually].

And these are the same adults who are entrusted with the 'care and custody' of $500 Million (or greater) assets belonging to the United States of America? Who are now told they can't be trusted to manage their personal time off? Is making admiral so gahdamn important that it must be achieved by walking on the backs of those entrusted to one's command? Learning involves making mistakes, for crissakes! If people are not allowed to make mistakes, acknowledge them, and adjust their performance by them - how the hell are they ever going to learn? They're not! And it shows!

But of course, 'someone' has to be blamed for mistakes, right? So the apparent paradigm is to shove it down the stack far enough that eventually it reaches the level where people can't push back. Where the 'power of the command' hydraulic press is so great that light itself can't escape. A black hole that swallows the substance of leadership and responsibility. And we are left with a hologram of what it used to look like. I know this - half a century later, my sailors still keep in touch. We must have been doing something right.

Second Rant Over...oh, one more thing, appropriate to the Season: "A Happy Ship, A Happy Crew - Merry Christmas...Turn To!"

"Mack the Knife"
CDR USN (Ret)

quote:

Originally posted by ObviouslyStupid:
The liberty plans are annoying, yes (especially during the current stand-down period) but the best advice I could give to anyone coming to Yokosuka is to stay out of sight, i.e., leave Yokosuka as much as possible. There's nothing really here anyway, and you don't have to go very far at all until you are out of the Navy's AOR.

And that's part of the problem in my opinion. Now, instead of sailors hanging out and getting drunk in the honch (across the street from the base), they're hanging out and getting drunk in Yokohama and Roppongi (a district of Tokyo). That means they've got a lot more area they can cover to act like an *** clown and it's a lot more likely they'll miss the last train back and end up out past liberty expiration time, which is itself grounds for a crucifixion nowadays. It also makes physically spot checking liberty plans (which is ridiculous anyways) virtually impossible. What ends up happening is that the sailors who say they're going bowling on base or staying at the fleet rec center get spot checked, because it's at least possible to find them and it won't take all night. The ones who go out drinking in Tokyo... Good luck catching them doing something stupid, and they're the ones most likely to do something stupid. As for having sailors call in... Yes we do it, and no, I've never heard of a sailor calling in and confessing "Chief, it's me, BM3, I decided to get drunk in Yokohama instead of going straight to my barracks room to watch movies. I also just punched out some Japanese national, but don't worry, he's way too hammered to remember it."

quote:

Now, instead of sailors hanging out and getting drunk in the honch (across the street from the base), they're hanging out and getting drunk in Yokohama and Roppongi (a district of Tokyo).

The last couple of years in Japan before we left, we would go with friends to districts of Yokohama where we knew we would not see other Servicemembers. Roppongi on the other hand was full of Servicemembers all drinking past the curfew. If you are an Airmen, Marine, or Solidier fair enough, but God have mercy if you are a Sailor of any Rank drinking past curfew.

BZ CDR! I love a good rant or two!

quote:

Posted Sun 23 December 2007 11:16 PM Hide Post
I haven't been here long enough (2 months) to fully understand the issues, but I can definitely tell you that a lot of people here are completely miserable. Morale is pretty low.

And, since honestly, I'm the only one here who is part of the demographic that is getting into trouble (for the most part...) here I guess my views are warranted. Since I'm one of the DDGs out here life isn't quite as bad as for someone on the Hawk, which, in stories that I'm sure are exaggerated, has a reputation something like most federal prisons, including gangs. The liberty plans are annoying, yes (especially during the current stand-down period) but the best advice I could give to anyone coming to Yokosuka is to stay out of sight, i.e., leave Yokosuka as much as possible. There's nothing really here anyway, and you don't have to go very far at all until you are out of the Navy's AOR. We've been fortunate not to have any divisional, departmental or ship-wide problems since I've been here which could be influence my somewhat rosy view of things, but it's not all bad. It's totally stupid, yes, but not as Stalinian to live under as it may seem.

-OSSA

Great post obviously stupid...leave it to an OS to bring some common sense to the discussion!

kinda reminds me of the JOHN KING DDG-3, fall '78 in the med and 'CRAZY JERRY', the CO, having the JO's making the bars and snooping and snitching on how many drinks the chiefs were having on liberty.
OMG, i thought that was bad...

Gee it makes you wonder what would happen if a bunch of Squid's got into a bar fight with a bunch of Marine's. Oh wait that never happens.

You mean the young squids were once treated as adults? Why, they were even held accountable for their actions? What a quaint concept...

I remember my first boat...I was NOT going to be the guy that screwed up liberty for everyone else...not that I feared mast, or JAG...no, I feared something much worse. I feared my CPO. I knew a screwup would get me "calibrated" and that was a BAD thing.

But, we can't calibrate sailors these days. We must "train" them. I remember well getting my *** ripped at 5:30 am because one of my guys had been tagged DUI.

God help us if the Navy ever has to really go to war again..

Dang there is something to be said about being old and remembering liberty 72-77 WestPac fast attack boats .

Let me see. Looking back to when I was a young sailor (a Long time ago) The liberty plan would be something like this for most of us.

A. Get drunk
B. Find some tail

Note A and B can be interchangable

Yes I have been to Yokosuka among many places visited serving with the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th fleets