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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Gay/Lesbian Issues in the Military A General Survey from my military classes...|
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Experienced Member |
As some of you may recall, I do survey’s in my military college classes at a large Army base and Air Force base.
Each term I have at least one ‘hot button’ topic in the courses (Sociology and Philosophy) which has been for the past four years the DA/DT question(sexual orientation issues.) I give well designed professional survey’s to my students in all those classes. This term I had five classes, 3 Sociology and 2 Philosophy for a total of 45 students. 40 of them completed the survey (it’s optional.) So, here are a few results from the Attitudes Toward Homosexual Persons: (in this survey statements can be agreed with, seen as neutral or disagreed with.) Question 1: I would not mind having homosexual friends: 68% responded favorably; 23% were neutral; and 10% responded negatively to have gay friends. #2 I won’t associate with known homosexuals if I can help it: 13% agreed; 15% were neutral; 72% disagreed. #3 I would look for a new place to live if I found out my roommate was a homosexual: 18% agreed; 20% were neutral; and 63% disagreed with the statement. (This is important due to the so-called "privacy" issue raised about gays serving.) #4 Homosexuality is a mental illness: 15% agreed; 23% were neutral; and 62% disagreed. #5 Homosexuals are more likely to commit deviant acts than heterosexuals: 3% thought so; 28% didn’t know; and 70% didn’t think so. #6 Homosexuality is not sinful: 34% thought it was; 24% didn’t know; and 42% didn’t think it was sinful. #7 I would not mind being employed by a homosexual: 70% agreed; 15% were neutral and 15% disagreed. (An other important issue in the military.) Anyway, there you have a sampling of 7 of the 21 questions. (I could post the rest at some other time if anyone is interested.) Later I will post their results to a Zogby style poll. In the classes were a dozen or so in senior leadership in the Army, NCOs and one O – including Rangers, CID and a guard from Gitmo. Most military members have had Iraq/Afghanistan experience and are career oriented in the military. In the group discussions on the issues all felt things are changing and DA/DT would be dropped as the older generation passes out of the military and Congress. NO ONE expressed any objections to gays serving though some said they objected to the life style. No one thought dropping DA/DT would create long term problems, though they thought some few military members might get more hostile and it could be risky for some few gays for a while but that would all clear up within a short period of time. They also noted the attitude within the ranks was different depending on where you were and what unit you were with but over all they thought it was not a big issue for most active duty. These results are not unusual and correspond well with what I have been finding over the past four years of dealing with this issue in the military. And it corresponds well with Zogby. Of course, it is not a ‘scientific’ survey as it is only an instrument used for academic purposes in my military college courses, but I find it interesting that the results of the survey have remained much more positive to gays in the military than one would find among retired or veterans who post negative comments as if they reflect the whole of attitude in the military. So, there is that sampling. But, it’s not the people in the military who will eventually decide this issue but at this point it appears the major simply don’t care if gays are in uniform. All they really care is if someone can do their job. Btw many said knew gays in their unit but did not think it was a big deal, and evidently, neither did their commands. |
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Given what you've posted thus far, is there any evidence that suggests that DADT is NOT a policy that is working well? |
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Experienced Member |
Is it fair that gay military should have to function under rules/laws that are different than other people in uniform? And no it is not working well. Good people are losing their jobs just because they are attracted to people of their own sex, even if nothing is going on. So, you put in 18 or 19 years and then loose you job, retirement, etc. just because you are gay? Even if no Article 125 is broken? The policy is not working well. There should be no double standard policy. |
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I knew what your OPINION would be; I was asking if you had obtained any empirical evidence. Since you reported none, is it safe to believe there IS none? |
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I was fairly certain I knew what your opinion would be, but I was asking if you had any empirical evidence. Since you don't, there's little to pursue here. It would appear that the policy is MORE than a double standard; it's a standard that applies to persons of any/all orientation(s). |
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Member |
There is a lot more than empirical evidence. There are data that show that 3000-4000 gay, lesbian and bisexual members of the military leave the service each year BECAUSE of DADT. These are people who are NOT kicked out; they leave voluntarily. These individuals would have stayed in for a career, but decided that the hassles of trying to live under DADT, not to mention the risks of being discovered and kicked out after, say, 18 or 19 years of service, are too great. So they leave voluntarily and quietly, taking with them a vast amount of experience and expertise that otherwise would have remained.
That is a huge loss of talent, not to mention the hundreds of millions of dollars required to recruit and train their replacements. |
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I would suggest that you have NO evidence that those leaving voluntarily would have made a career of military service or....you'd have presented it. Perhaps those who DID leave because of DADT might well have better chosen not to have served at all. Still, the fact that they DID serve and left voluntarily suggests that DADT is a policy that has worked well. Insofar as the costs involved of people of ANY orientation who choose to serve but a single enlistment, the military knows full well that our country is well supplied with young people willing to take their place. Military service is great experience for those choosing to return to the private sector and are a benefit to our country as....veterans! |
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Member |
Once again you're wrong. A survey of gay and lesbian veterans found exactly the data as I presented it. These people left the military, and otherwise would have remained, had it not been for the stresses and hassles presented by DADT. And the Pentagon knows of the data from this survey. So does the White House, as it was part of President Obama's Transition Team material. Just because you don't like the numbers doesn't mean they're not valid.
Have you watched the 60-Minutes piece last December? Featured were 6 military veterans, 5 of whom I know personally, who would have remained for a career, but left because of DADT. One was a Air Force U2 pilot, whose training and education cost the taxpayers $2 million; another was an E-6 submariner from a nuclear submarine (who served openly, as a matter of fact) -- replacing his knowledge and experience is not simply finding a recruit out of boot camp; another was an E-5 Korean linguist (who also served openly for 5 years in the Army) - another multi-hundred thousand dollars to replace him; another was an E-5 Marine aircrewman - who also served with the knowledge of his peers that he was gay; the last two were combat medics, one with the Marines and one with the Army -- both these last guys served openly, too, but both of them were ultimately kicked out under DADT. There are hundreds of similar stories of gays, not only serving openly without causing problems, but thousands who leave the military because of the constraints and risks imposed by DADT. This message has been edited. Last edited by: dupontgaf, |
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Your OPINION is duly noted, but your citations do NOT imply that my observations are incorrect. I have not denied that a few have no doubt decided against a career in the military because of DADT. Still, there may well be many thousands who've NOT allowed DADT to impact career decisions.
At the SAME time, it should be noted that there are MANY factors that DO...impact career decisions that are NOT orientation related. Generally speaking, a military career is often an extreme hardship on MANY levels irrespective of orientation. |
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Member |
This is not my opinion -- these are the findings of the data generated by the poll of LGBT veterans. And the number is not a few, it is thousands each year. That is a hefty loss in operational expertise and experience walking out the door each year because of the unjust DADT law and the requirement to serve under onerous rules of speech and conduct that apply ONLY to gay, lesbian and bisexual personnel. Repealing DADT very simply allows ALL service men and women to serve under the exact, same rules and regulations of conduct. |
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Experienced Member |
The reasons gays leave the military could be conjecture for some. Never-the-less, there is voluntary "confessions" from many of them that they left due to the unreasonable pressure of the DA/DT law.
However, what is impressive, bold and brave, imho, is why they joined the military in the first place considering they knew the implications of the law and the stigma they might face. I think it is amazing any gay persons join and decide to stay!! (Unless they were all straight when they signed up but the military turned them gay?) That joining in the first place, too me, is a bold move and one of evident unquestionable desire to serve their country. If only all the heterosexuals had such dedication to duty! Thus, it only stands to reason the law deliberately impresses its 'bite' on a few. Get rid of it and let all service personnel live under the same laws (without that piece of double standard hypocrisy called UCMJ Article 125!) 21194237, since this thread began with some collected data from a select few in the military, what figures do you have from a peer group? Have you done any kind of “research” among active duty or veterans? This message has been edited. Last edited by: reducetension, |
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Member |
reducetension, I seem to recall that your active duty soldier and airmen students number over 250, or something like that. I wouldn't call that necessarily a "select few." It's starting to get to be a substantial number. Granted they are not a random sample of soldiers or airmen, but getting numbers of troops that size, many of whom say they know gays in their own unit, seems to verify the findings of the Zogby Poll and the findings of the professor at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterrey -- namely, that there are a lot of known gays serving now, in both theaters of war, and it isn't proving to be a problem. Therefore, why the need to continue DADT? |
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Experienced Member |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Since a LOT of GOOD people have been lost JUST because of rumors I think there is PLENTY of empirical evidence that DA/DT is not working. Since NO significant problems occured in any of the nations that have already allowed homosexuals to serve openly I think that is a LOT of empirical evidence getting rid of DA/DT will not cause problems. Since there are no fact based reasons for discriminating against homosexuals (via DA/DT) the law should be repealed. For some FACTS look at the DOD funded studies dating back decades (to the 50's I think) that ALL said allowing homosexuals to serve openly would not harm the military. Look at the DOD estimates ont he cost of DA/DT. Look at the FACT that the Don't Ask part is policy not law and is NOT enforced since there is NO documented instance of ANY commander being punished for asking, including for starting multiple investigations based on rumors that interviewed people neighbors, families, friends, etc. about if a person was a homosexual. |
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Can we assume that a poll conducted by LGBT is an unbiased one? Hardly. |
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Highly Experienced Member |
And just who would you ask about why LGBT's were leaving the service other than LGBT's leaving the service? Talk about looking for any excuse to not believe something  |
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Member |
To further emphasize this point, the poll was NOT conducted BY a gay/lesbian organization. It was a poll OF gay/lesbian veterans conducted by researchers at the University of Washington. Thus the data are valid since the poll specifically asked why these GLBT veterans left the military.
Bottom line: thousands of GLBT veterans, who otherwise would have remained on active duty, opt to leave the military specifically because of DADT -- a huge loss of talent, experience and $$ down the drain. |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Gay/Lesbian Issues in the Military A General Survey from my military classes...
