So everyone that is saying that you don't want gays in the military, what about this ...

1865- slavery ended.
1954- the Supreme Court of the United States handed down its order for desegregation
1870 - 15th amendment gave black men the right to vote, but in practice it didn't happen. Loopholes in the amendment allowed whites to prevent blacks from voting.
1919 - Women got the right to vote.
1975 - The Voting Rights Act finally gives black men the real right to vote.


Look how long white men have been looking down on other races, women, and homosexuals. Funny that we just elected a black president!!! The president was almost a woman- wow!!! Bet our ancestors are rolling around in their graves. Sucks that even now people are so closed minded that they can't realize that it doesn't matter if you are black, white, male, female, homosexual, hererosexual, or bisexual, single, married, young or old, everyone has the right to be who they want to be. Isn't America the land of freedom? As a soldier we took an oath to serve the United States of America, Isn't it against the UCMJ to discriminate??? Funny how people think they can pick and choose which laws they want to abide by.

I am proud to say I voted for Obama- the first black president of the United States of America

How racial and closed minded our ancestors were- your children will look back and think how prejudice and closed minded you are being about someone who happens to be homosexual, being in the military.......

I thought Bill Clinton was the first "black" president, but NOT.....the first president who was a sexual predator.

Isn't it wrong to call Obama "black?" Isn't he, in fact, bi-racial....i.e. just as white as he is black?

yes you are correct. However, you've missed my point. Point being- is it right or wrong to be judgmental just because someone is black, white, bi-racial, homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual... whatever they are should we judge them and limit them to what they can or cannot do.

quote:

Isn't it wrong to call Obama "black?" Isn't he, in fact, bi-racial....i.e. just as white as he is black?

This has also been a 'pet peeve' of mine. I am old school and would say 'mulato.' I don't know if that is political correct anymore.

President Obama is considered 'black' because of the One drop rule. This rule was created during the time of slavery in our country. The rule basically stated that a person with as little as one drop of black blood in their heritage was to be considered black. We can thank the bigotry of the Jim Crow's laws for this. The road to equality is a very long and rocky one.

"barney.gonzaga.edu/~tmarsh/engl413/One%20Drop%20rule"

This message has been edited. Last edited by: gypsysnipe,

quote:

Originally posted by brooke_awwb:
yes you are correct. However, you've missed my point. Point being- is it right or wrong to be judgmental just because someone is black, white, bi-racial, homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual... whatever they are should we judge them and limit them to what they can or cannot do.

Of course we ought not discriminate on the basis of race, color, creed or gender, and to do so is against the law in many cases. However, sexual orientation is a different matter and the military's DADT policy was an effort to REMOVE it as a factor. Those wishing to change the policy simply insist that orientation be included as a nondiscriminatory characteristic.

Personally, I prefer to not know the orientations of persons with whom I'm not acquainted because I believe it is a matter of privacy. AND, if I'm unaware of your orientation, then I'm unable to discriminate on that basis. When you FORCE me to become aware of your orientation, you require me to make a judgement, just as if you forced me to know your religious preference, political preference, financial position, etc.

WHY ought you to FORCE me to become aware of your sexual orientation; I wouldn't do so to you!

You say that you do not FORCE anyone to be aware of your sexual orientation. Do you wear a wedding ring? Do you have pictures of your family on your desk (wife, kids, etc.)? Do you talk about going to see the in-laws for the holidays? How about taking emergancy leave for the illness of your wife? If you answer yes to ANY of these questions, then you have FORCED awareness of your sexual orientation. Being able to serve openly doesn't mean that homosexuals will do anything more graphic than the examples above. It just means that they won't get kicked out for having a romantic dinner with a date, or putting a picture on their desk, or any other innocuous behavior that straight people take for granted.

bad: The ONLY folks with whom I share personal data such as you've suggested are....close trusted friends and acquaintences. I don't wear jewelry of ANY sort (too ostentatious for me). None of the photos I have are for persons other than myself and again....the trusted friends & acquaintences. NOTHING that I do in public with ANYONE....would in ANY way betray my personal sexual preference. As such, NO one with whom I've not shared my personal preferences would have a clue about such very PERSONAL matters, and THAT is all I recommend for gays & straights alike. When I've taken emergency leave, I've only had to reveal that it was for FAMILY need, i.e. could be mom or dad. SO, as you can see....there is NOTHING you or anyone can do to FORCE me to reveal my orientation, and I'd NEVER force you to deal with it.

quote:

Originally posted by 19022583:
bad: The ONLY folks with whom I share personal data such as you've suggested are....close trusted friends and acquaintences. I don't wear jewelry of ANY sort (too ostentatious for me). None of the photos I have are for persons other than myself and again....the trusted friends & acquaintences. NOTHING that I do in public with ANYONE....would in ANY way betray my personal sexual preference. As such, NO one with whom I've not shared my personal preferences would have a clue about such very PERSONAL matters, and THAT is all I recommend for gays & straights alike. When I've taken emergency leave, I've only had to reveal that it was for FAMILY need, i.e. could be mom or dad. SO, as you can see....there is NOTHING you or anyone can do to FORCE me to reveal my orientation, and I'd NEVER force you to deal with it.

Kudos to you for your actions (I really mean that).

However, you must know that 99% of all straight military members do the exact opposite of what you do. And I think that is the point badbard was making. You may not do the simple things listed that do force orentaion out into the open, but the vast majority does. When someone (straight) says they don't like it when homosexuals 'force' their sexual prefrence on them they don't realize that they (the straight person) is usually forcing their own sexual prefrence on everyone else....usually. That, in short, would make them hypocrites (not you).

And I believe that was badbards point.

quote:

Originally posted by HANtheMANN:

quote:

Originally posted by 19022583:
bad: The ONLY folks with whom I share personal data such as you've suggested are....close trusted friends and acquaintences. I don't wear jewelry of ANY sort (too ostentatious for me). None of the photos I have are for persons other than myself and again....the trusted friends & acquaintences. NOTHING that I do in public with ANYONE....would in ANY way betray my personal sexual preference. As such, NO one with whom I've not shared my personal preferences would have a clue about such very PERSONAL matters, and THAT is all I recommend for gays & straights alike. When I've taken emergency leave, I've only had to reveal that it was for FAMILY need, i.e. could be mom or dad. SO, as you can see....there is NOTHING you or anyone can do to FORCE me to reveal my orientation, and I'd NEVER force you to deal with it.

Kudos to you for your actions (I really mean that).

However, you must know that 99% of all straight military members do the exact opposite of what you do. And I think that is the point badbard was making. You may not do the simple things listed that do force orentaion out into the open, but the vast majority does. When someone (straight) says they don't like it when homosexuals 'force' their sexual prefrence on them they don't realize that they (the straight person) is usually forcing their own sexual prefrence on everyone else....usually. That, in short, would make them hypocrites (not you).

And I believe that was badbards point.

HAN: I hope that the first sentence of your second paragraph doesn't mean that you think you know I'm straight.

One's orientation is not easily hidden. My partner and I regularly visit a male neighbor who's married to a female. He and his wife know we are gay but none of us have discussed sexual orientation in a conversation.

They know because we use the word "WE" as in; we bought another car yesterday, we viewed this movie or we ate at this restaurant. Over the last couple years my neighbors figured out that "we" are gay. I don't know when they figured it out but they know. People are not stupid, they have the ability to reason and by our use of the word "WE" they are able to deduce our orientation.

"We" is such a nice word and it says so much about people without having to elaborate.

HANtheMANN...you got my point.

19022583...IF you are homosexual (and I highly doubt it from the tone of your posts), you and I have already had the discussion about "owning" your words. It is really hard to take you seriously when you do not post anything about yourself. I am a lesbian. My name is listed in my profile. I OWN my words. It is easy for anyone here to look at my profile and know that I am a woman, a veteran, a lifetime member of the Disabled American Veterans, I live in CA, etc, etc, etc.
You told me that you were a disabled veteran from Vietnam. Ok. That means most likely that you are male. (not 100% because there were females in theater too...nurses, etc.). However, if you choose to hide behind absolute anonymity, your words lose some of their oomph IMHO. The fact that you go out of your way to conceal your sexual orientation does not negate the fact that 99% of heterosexuals engage in all forms of innocuous behaviors that tell the world what their orientation is, and that they then wish to complain about homosexuals who want to live life just the same as they do...without having to look over their shoulder when they are on a date, or worry about slipping up and saying the wrong pronoun when someone asks what they did over the weekend, etc.

Jim: When I returned from my 2nd tour in Vietnam to return to college on the GI Bill, I roomed with a same gendered person. I wonder....do you think that any NOT "stupid" persons "figured out" the truth about us. Reckon "not stupid" folks generally assume that same gendered people who room together are always gay? If so....there were a whole bunch of gay folks doing the same thing we were....simply sharing expenses while going to college!

19022583,

C'mon...you know what Jim meant. I don't think that you purchased a car with your college roommate, or lived with them for more than 4 to 5 years for that degree. I'm sure you didn't talk about "We" went on a cruise to the Bahamas, and "we" bought a dog, "we" bought a new dining room table for our house that "we" own together. That is what Jim is refering to, not simply sharing an apartment with someone of the same gender for a few years while attending school.

quote:

Originally posted by badbard:
19022583,

C'mon...you know what Jim meant. I don't think that you purchased a car with your college roommate, or lived with them for more than 4 to 5 years for that degree. I'm sure you didn't talk about "We" went on a cruise to the Bahamas, and "we" bought a dog, "we" bought a new dining room table for our house that "we" own together. That is what Jim is refering to, not simply sharing an apartment with someone of the same gender for a few years while attending school.

Thank you badbard, I was beginning to think my writing ability was so poor that 19022583 couldn't understand the point I was making.

quote:

Originally posted by 19022583:
Jim: When I returned from my 2nd tour in Vietnam to return to college on the GI Bill, I roomed with a same gendered person. I wonder....do you think that any NOT "stupid" persons "figured out" the truth about us. Reckon "not stupid" folks generally assume that same gendered people who room together are always gay? If so....there were a whole bunch of gay folks doing the same thing we were....simply sharing expenses while going to college!

Did you miss the point about "WE" that I was making?