I have seen a number of photos of U.S. troops in the middle east carrying the M-14. Im not talking about the M-21 sniper version either. M-14's with iron sights carried by infantry. Can you guys tell me anything about this? Are they being issued? Man I sure would like to carry one.

Any replies are appreciated

Dan.

Many have been pulled from storage to fill the Designated Marksman role...not sniper (even though quite a few m21's have been fielded).

The DM rifle takes over where the M16 peaks.

quote:

Originally posted by STARSnBARS:
Many have been pulled from storage to fill the Designated Marksman role...not sniper (even though quite a few m21's have been fielded).

The DM rifle takes over where the M16 peaks.

To add on, many in the civilian world (including, pathetically enough, some weapons publications) are unaware that there is a difference between sniper and DM. I just sighed and rolled my eyes when I read in Guns&Ammo that DM was just "the politically correct term for 'sniper'" A sniper:

Is usually armed with a bolt action or large caliber rifle (though not always)

Works seperately from a platoon

Engages point targets and gathers intelligence

Usually operates in only a 2 man team (sniper and spotter)

A Designated Marksman:

Is part of an infantry, SOF, etc, squad

Is armed with a scoped, accurratized assault or battle rifle

As SnB said, engages targets past what the standard rifleman would.

From http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/a...9/c07.htm#sectionvii (Copy of US Army Field Manual for marksmanship with M16 series rifles)

quote:

MISSION OF THE SQUAD DESIGNATED MARKSMAN
The primary mission of the SDM is to deploy as a member of the rifle squad. The SDM is a vital member of his individual squad and not a squad sniper. He fires and maneuvers with his squad and performs all the duties of the standard rifleman. The SDM has neither the equipment nor training to operate individually or in a small team to engage targets at extended ranges with precision fires.

The secondary mission of the SDM is to engage key targets from 300 to 500 meters with effective, well-aimed fires using the standard weapon system and standard ammunition. He may or may not be equipped with an optic. The SDM must, therefore, possess a thorough understanding and mastery of the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship as well as ballistics, elevation and windage hold-off, sight manipulation, and range estimation.

SDM rifles vary. The M14 is commonly used as such, though there are issues with sustainability. Very few spare parts remain in Army inventory - this includes magazines. Some units received only one magazine with thier M14s, and were unable to order additional ones through the Army supply system - there weren't any in stock. The most reliable way to get good M14 spare parts is to cannabalize other rifles. Most commercially purchased parts today don't meet government specifications.

Some reports say the M14 is less popular then the M16/M4. This is due to several reasons:

• Weight. An M14 weighs almost 9 lbs unloaded, and 100 rounds of 7.62 NATO weighs about what 210 of 5.56mm does.
  
• Handling. The M14 is longer than the M16, making it more awkward to deploy from vehicles or in confined spaces. The M16 isn't as popular as the M4, for the same reason.
  
• Maintenance. The USMC experimented with accurized M14s in the SDM role, and found that the rifles were difficult to maintain in the field. Aside from a lack of parts, few soldiers are familiar with operating or maintaining the M14 in the field. Without SDM instructors recruited from civilian shooters, many units might still be learning how to operate and maintain their rifles.

Other SDM rifles include M16 variants - either accurized models, or M16A4s with an optic mounted on top. Trials with AR variants in 7.62 NATO are either currently in progress, or nearly complete - the next generation SDM/sniper rifle for the Army may well be such a rifle.

Additional links for reading about SDMs are:
http://tradoc.monroe.army.mil/pao/TNSarchives/February05/023405.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_marksman
http://www.odcmp.org/0505/default.asp?page=SDM
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/a...9/c07.htm#sectionvii

I know Fulton Armory makes parts for the M14 that are superb, we used several of their Products on Our SDM rifles. Magazines are now in the Inventory as well, I was able to get approx 15+ brand new MFR for each Rifle in Baghdad.

Good site here for some info on SDM M14 rifles.

They're having trouble finding enough instructors and rifles to fill the increased needs of the program lately, so graduates ship out with whatever is available. An instructor over at the CMP posted that they're accurizing ARs themselves for their classes.

As much as I'm a huge fan of the M14/21/1a, with the advent of the XM110 I don't see anything except a stopgap future for non AR-based rifles outside of the Sniper community.

So to directly answer your question: qualify for the SDM program and request one.

quote:

Originally posted by Asa_Yam:
From http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/a...9/c07.htm#sectionvii (Copy of US Army Field Manual for marksmanship with M16 series rifles)

quote:

MISSION OF THE SQUAD DESIGNATED MARKSMAN
The primary mission of the SDM is to deploy as a member of the rifle squad. The SDM is a vital member of his individual squad and not a squad sniper. He fires and maneuvers with his squad and performs all the duties of the standard rifleman. The SDM has neither the equipment nor training to operate individually or in a small team to engage targets at extended ranges with precision fires.

The secondary mission of the SDM is to engage key targets from 300 to 500 meters with effective, well-aimed fires using the standard weapon system and standard ammunition. He may or may not be equipped with an optic. The SDM must, therefore, possess a thorough understanding and mastery of the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship as well as ballistics, elevation and windage hold-off, sight manipulation, and range estimation.

SDM rifles vary. The M14 is commonly used as such, though there are issues with sustainability. Very few spare parts remain in Army inventory - this includes magazines. Some units received only one magazine with thier M14s, and were unable to order additional ones through the Army supply system - there weren't any in stock. The most reliable way to get good M14 spare parts is to cannabalize other rifles. Most commercially purchased parts today don't meet government specifications.

Some reports say the M14 is less popular then the M16/M4. This is due to several reasons:

• Weight. An M14 weighs almost 9 lbs unloaded, and 100 rounds of 7.62 NATO weighs about what 210 of 5.56mm does.
  
• Handling. The M14 is longer than the M16, making it more awkward to deploy from vehicles or in confined spaces. The M16 isn't as popular as the M4, for the same reason.
  
• Maintenance. The USMC experimented with accurized M14s in the SDM role, and found that the rifles were difficult to maintain in the field. Aside from a lack of parts, few soldiers are familiar with operating or maintaining the M14 in the field. Without SDM instructors recruited from civilian shooters, many units might still be learning how to operate and maintain their rifles.

Other SDM rifles include M16 variants - either accurized models, or M16A4s with an optic mounted on top. Trials with AR variants in 7.62 NATO are either currently in progress, or nearly complete - the next generation SDM/sniper rifle for the Army may well be such a rifle.

Additional links for reading about SDMs are:
http://tradoc.monroe.army.mil/pao/TNSarchives/February05/023405.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_marksman
http://www.odcmp.org/0505/default.asp?page=SDM
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/a...9/c07.htm#sectionvii

One question though: Wouldn't a DM be considered a rifleman first, and a DM second? (rifleman shoots everyone. DM shoots everyone, including those too far away for the rest of the squad). While there is no doubt that a 7.62 is a more potent round at 300+ meters, most combat is still 100-200 meters. It would seem to make sense that a DM should carry another 5.56 M16 varient, possibly loaded with MK262 or other long range 5.56 loads.

First reason: As a rifleman, the DM is still going to need to carry a large amount of ammo. Sure, his long range shots are (hopefully) one shot, one kill, but for short range work, he'll probably be putting a lot of lead down range, and will need to carry a lighter load than what he could with a 7.62.

Second reason: Most of the DM's engagements are going to range between 0-500 meters. Anything past that is sniper territory. While the 5.56 (most loads) is reportedly best between 0-200 meters, even if the thing doesn't fragment at 500 meters, an inch long piece of metal going through your chest or skull isn't exactly healthy. And the MK262 is very accurate almost out to sniper range.

These are the reasons why I question whether or not a 7.62mm DMR is really the way to go. Definitely stick with it for a sniper round, but 5.56 seems OK for a DM. But then again, I'd like to see whatever is best, and I would not fight tooth and nail against anything that BTDTs think should be used.

quote:

Originally posted by M14_Loyalist:
One question though: Wouldn't a DM be considered a rifleman first, and a DM second? (rifleman shoots everyone. DM shoots everyone, including those too far away for the rest of the squad). While there is no doubt that a 7.62 is a more potent round at 300+ meters, most combat is still 100-200 meters. It would seem to make sense that a DM should carry another 5.56 M16 varient, possibly loaded with MK262 or other long range 5.56 loads.

USMC seems to have settled on the ACOG equipped M16A4 as their future DM rifle. The conversion process is fairly straightforward (remove carry handle, install ACOG, zero rifle), and the rifle meets their needs.

The US Army is leaning towards an accurized M16A4. Unlike the USMC rifle, IIRC, the Army version sports a free floated stainless steel barrel, and some form of match trigger.

I believe the 82nd Airborne designed an M4 variant for their DM rifle. From a terminal ballistics standpoint, I don't think this is the best choice, but the shorter weapon is easier to handle, especially in confined spaces.

quote:

Sure, his long range shots are (hopefully) one shot, one kill, but for short range work, he'll probably be putting a lot of lead down range, and will need to carry a lighter load than what he could with a 7.62.

Actually, I think the weight will remain about the same. What changes is the amount of ammo carried - 5.56mm ammo is almost half the weight of 7.62, so a soldier carries twice the amount.

The SDM operates at squad level, he does the same job as a rifleman but has a higher level of training and is able to effectively imploy his weapon to engage targets beyond that of the average rifleman. NOTE: SDM'S ARE IN NO WAY SNIPERS!

Units do not always get that specialized weapon for the SDM. Most will make due with what they have. This normally being a standard as is M4 or M16, slap on a ACOG or other optic and there you go one SDM weapon. They will use the same ammunition as everyone else, no MK262 ammunition for the masses. This is what I use and what I have observed other units using. Depending on how many M14's a unit may get the statement above might be void, but ammunition can still be the same.

We were able to get some "Interesting" things from the People we were attached to. .50 caliber SLAP ammo, The HP Sniper ammo for 7.62, as much M118 SP Ball as we wanted. 40mm Multiple Projectile, We Acquired M1907 Slings, Harris Bipods, M3 Mildot scopes to replace the "SuperSniper shite"rigs. Our SDM's had Plenty of New Mfr. M-14 mags, and were able to use our FOB s ranges at will, unless the residents were using it before a mission.

GLAD TO HEAR IT! the best combat rifle ever made, give 'em to the snipers, one or two per platoon, give these guys the tools to whip an enemy.

quote:

Originally posted by 9514735:
GLAD TO HEAR IT! the best combat rifle ever made, give 'em to the snipers, one or two per platoon, give these guys the tools to whip an enemy.

We did that until the M24 came online. Nice weapon, the M21, but hardly sniper worthy.

quote:

Originally posted by M14_Loyalist:
We did that until the M24 came online. Nice weapon, the M21, but hardly sniper worthy.

Yeah when all's said and done, the M14 is really perfect for the SDM role: a guy who prefers a few well-aimed rounds that'll drop somebody instead of throwing a few bursts of 5.56 downrange. I'd still rather have a full-auto M4 for room clearing, though. Decisions, decisions.

I suppose what appeals to me most about rising M14/1a use is that soldiers are actually being taught to shoot well. There's not near enough of that. The SDM program is for riflemen what Top Gun was in the 70s for pilots.

quote:

Originally posted by 514tech:

quote:

Originally posted by M14_Loyalist:
We did that until the M24 came online. Nice weapon, the M21, but hardly sniper worthy.

Yeah when all's said and done, the M14 is really perfect for the SDM role: a guy who prefers a few well-aimed rounds that'll drop somebody instead of throwing a few bursts of 5.56 downrange. I'd still rather have a full-auto M4 for room clearing, though. Decisions, decisions.

I suppose what appeals to me most about rising M14/1a use is that soldiers are actually being taught to shoot well. There's not near enough of that. The SDM program is for riflemen what Top Gun was in the 70s for pilots.

The M14 is good, maybe even great, for the DM role, but it is a stretch to call it "perfect." It is heavy, it's harder to keep accurate than the M16, and it is less modular than the M16 (can't switch out receivers/barrels nearly as easily). The 7.62 is a nice round when you need to reach out and touch someone at long range, but it is heavy, and since the DM is a rifleman first and foremost, he'll need to carry a lot of ammo.

Okay you got me: "perfect" is a stretch. But when you factor in availability, cost and proven combat ability I think it still tops the list of available options.

Who knows though. Maybe I'll get one of those shiny new Air Force M4s that will actually go bang on command and I'll convert to the Stars-n-Bars AR fan club

What about the M16A4 with a scope, free-floating barrel, etc? That'll save a lot of money too.

quote:

Originally posted by 514tech:
...Maybe I'll get one of those shiny new Air Force M4s that will actually go bang on command and I'll convert to the Stars-n-Bars AR fan club

I have fans all over the world, babyyyyy!

quote:

Originally posted by M14_Loyalist:
What about the M16A4 with a scope, free-floating barrel, etc? That'll save a lot of money too.

From conversations I've had with instructors I believe that's the preferred SDM rifle: an accurized and upgraded AR. Unit cost is low (one stock AR + match grade barrel + a few parts) but that requires a lot of labor from people who know what they're doing to turn into a good rifle. If you have to pay for that labor...well it gets pricey.

On top of that I still think the 7.62 ballistics work better for the SDM role. Now the "logical" progression of that is the XM110. And while the concept of an improved, AR-based 7.62 has potential, I haven't heard the word "cheap" associated with that program.

As for StarsnBars well what can I say? HOOAH, Sar'nt! That guy on the left definitely has that "Where's MY M4?!?" look to him.

quote:

Originally posted by 514tech:
On top of that I still think the 7.62 ballistics work better for the SDM role.

Based on expirience or what you've read?

quote:

Now the "logical" progression of that is the XM110. And while the concept of an improved, AR-based 7.62 has potential, I haven't heard the word "cheap" associated with that program.

The XM110 is a sniper system, not a DM system.

quote:

Originally posted by M14_Loyalist:
Based on expirience or what you've read?

While I've done my share of training exercises, I have no combat experience. I've heard dozens of people who should know types telling me 7.62 is superior, but that's friend-of-a-friend stuff I won't use on the board.

What I do have a lot of is range time. While the 5.56 is perfectly capable at less than 300m I don't like the performance beyond that. I don't have a problem hitting targets out as far as 800m with an M1a if it's not too windy. Wind kills the 5.56 performance. Some of that I'm willing to chalk up to the rifle, but only some.

As for reading, a few things that favor the 7.62 are: flatter trajectory, better penetration of cover and some rather decisive wound characteristics: basically that given a torso hit the 7.62 is almost guaranteed to tumble (90-something percent) and branch out from the wound path. The 5.56 they compared it to only fragmented in 3/4 of the cases and even then the frags didn't travel more than 6 inches from the wound path. That last bit is from a police forensics report that I'm sorry to say I can't find online anymore. I'll try to find a copy on my backup tape: I'm sure this group would be interested.

To me it comes down to a better chance to hit targets at extended range (which includes a few 100m past the 5.56's capability) & a higher probability of incapacitating them if you do.

Single-shot takedown at extended range sounds like a good match to the SDM role.