416 hands down. why would a SF batt. order 84 hk 416 uppers to replace thier m-4's? the batt. is stationed on Okinawa. too many politicians got thier mitts in the procurement process. the Army, Marines need a better weapon.

there was an article in Def. Tech.org that the Army was going to test all the weapons mentioned here. i think it was described as a "shoot off" is this correct, or are we being "jerked off"? weapons inviolved are 416, m-4, xm-8, and the SCAR series. the 5.56 model and the 7.62 version. is this true?

They are going to test those weapons but should add an AK 101 and AK 103 as a reality check. Also they should do the testing in Iraq.

the 416 will be featured on the military channel sometime this week. previews show it buried in sand, dug up and fired on full auto. you can't believe everything you see though.

quote:

Originally posted by Marine_will_be:
the hk 416 only is better because of it's gas piston borrowed from the g3. lets not buy a whole expensive gun but a small gas piston. Am I right?

The HK G3 is not gas operated its delayed blow back. The German Army replaced the G3 with the HK G36. The operating system on the G36 appears to be a modification of the older American Armalite AR-18 rifle, with its short stroke gas piston, located above the barrel, square-shaped bolt carrier and the typical rotating bolt with 7 locking lugs.

well, they buried it, abused it, and it came up firing. i guess its no joke. why not make the switch, there is an H&K plant in the US. the armed forces need some kind of overhaul when it comes to small arms. if JSOC is using the 416, that says alot. condoms over the barrels of ur M-16...dust everywhere. clean it a hundred times, get into a running gunbattle, and its usually a matter of time...CLICK...

quote:

Originally posted by RHYNO506:
well, they buried it, abused it, and it came up firing. i guess its no joke. why not make the switch, there is an H&K plant in the US.

Because H&K has a tendency to set their prices high. Their reason? "**** you, we're H&K. Take it or leave it"

As far as the burying and abuse, every rifle goes through that stuff. Those demonstrations you've seen on TV and YouTube probably wouldn't even jam an M16. Over a prolonged period of time? Yeah, rifles will react differently. But I remind myself not to get wowed by public demonstrations, because most are rigged to make the rifle succeed.

quote:

the armed forces need some kind of overhaul when it comes to small arms. if JSOC is using the 416, that says alot.

That article has been blow out of proportion. If the Army doesn't even officially admit that Delta exists, how the hell did the information about the equipment they use get out? Now, I'm not saying I doubt that they are using the 416, it is quite possible, but I don't think it's exactly admissible evidence in court if you get my drift.

quote:

condoms over the barrels of ur M-16...dust everywhere. clean it a hundred times, get into a running gunbattle, and its usually a matter of time...CLICK...

True with every rifle, even the AK.

Now, on SOCNET, the idea of a piston AR is pretty universally accepted, nor am I disagreeing with your points. I've talked to guys who have used it and run it through prolonged tests, and they say that yes, it is worth the hype. I'm just giving the answers to the question of "What are we waiting for?"

The problem is the military is caught between two extremes: "We don't need to make a single improvement on the current system. We don't even need to LOOK at potential improvements" and "We need to ditch our current system, milk billions of dollars from the taxpayers, and get a system that is 110% different from what we currently have."

as far as price, the now defunct xm-8 cost less per unit than the Colt M-16 or M-4. there was an article, which many have read about a JSOC unit ordering 84 H&K uppers to replace the M-4's they were using. they were based on Okinawa.i have no idea how much the 416 is per unit in bulk, but Finland now uses it as thier main rifle. iam pretty sure the rifles if built, will be built right here in the US.

I would say that the H&K 416 is better. It has proven to be reliable, and is also made by a great company. It works well in desert conditions(sand/ heat) and seems like a good rifle. As far as i know, it uses the same magazines as the M4/M16 platform, so our troops would already have magazines which would make it a lot easier to switch to.

Hk is trying like all hell to get a contract with the US military. the M-8, 416, pistols. the fact that those Spec. Ops Soldiers ordered Hk 416 uppers says a lot. wat happened to the M-8? i saw pics of contractors carrying them in Iraq, so wats the problem? one guy on here said the polymers can't handle the heat from sustained firing. the Israeli's had the same prob with the Magal. they fixed it. now the Israeli police, Interior Ministries use them, and it uses the 7.62 round. if Hk got a contract, the weapons would be built right here in the US. Same with Herstal. as far as carrying a lot of rounds, iam in favor of that. you don't want to run out of ammo. thats why i favor a 16 rnd 9mm over a 1911 that uses half of that. put the round in the right spot, he will go down. if not, fire again.

They do have 1911s that are high capacity though. I'd love one of those!

Jesus......... just convert the m16/m4 to the piston system, just a few parts you have to buy......

quote:

Originally posted by DIABLO_OPSGRP:
Jesus......... just convert the m16/m4 to the piston system, just a few parts you have to buy......

I've been saying that for 20 years. Though, it's still an answer to a non-question.

Maintain your weapon per the -10, lube it per the -10, and you will have minimal troubles. This is my 2nd tour, and I still have yet to experience a failure.

why take the chance? the piston system is a superior system. it usually comes down to who has thier hands in the cookie jar, political connections, money. there are companies in the US that are making rifles-in .223 and .308 with the piston system. 1 is Patriot Ordinance Factory. if the Army signed on to the 416, it would be made right here.

quote:

Originally posted by RHYNO506:
why take the chance? the piston system is a superior system. it usually comes down to who has thier hands in the cookie jar, political connections, money. there are companies in the US that are making rifles-in .223 and .308 with the piston system. 1 is Patriot Ordinance Factory. if the Army signed on to the 416, it would be made right here.

Yes and all POF does is convert AR15's to the piston systems. Which the army's armorers can do very easily. Hell my little sister could convert an AR to a piston system if she had the right tools. Why spend all the money on a new rifle when you can make one correction to the old one? That way there is more money left for ammo/ranges/proper training. Exactly what chances are you reffering to taking?

quote:

Originally posted by DIABLO_OPSGRP:

quote:

Originally posted by RHYNO506:
why take the chance? the piston system is a superior system. it usually comes down to who has thier hands in the cookie jar, political connections, money. there are companies in the US that are making rifles-in .223 and .308 with the piston system. 1 is Patriot Ordinance Factory. if the Army signed on to the 416, it would be made right here.

Yes and all POF does is convert AR15's to the piston systems. Which the army's armorers can do very easily. Hell my little sister could convert an AR to a piston system if she had the right tools. Why spend all the money on a new rifle when you can make one correction to the old one? That way there is more money left for ammo/ranges/proper training. Exactly what chances are you reffering to taking?

well, it being that easy, why don't they start working on it. the chance iam talking about is when you pull the trigger you get "click" instead of "boom". some say thiers never jammed, others say they have. when you talk about money for training and ranges, are you saying the marksmanship of Soldiers and Marines are sub-par?

i wonder how much time and money it would take up to do the conversions? i bet H&k's bid would come to be cheaper per unit than Colt's. its because of politics, and other things like nepotism that keeps that rifle in the field. i wonder why they are taking 40,000 M-14's out of storage and reworking them? the armorers have thier hands full and then some.

quote:

Originally posted by RHYNO506:

quote:

Originally posted by DIABLO_OPSGRP:

quote:

Originally posted by RHYNO506:
why take the chance? the piston system is a superior system. it usually comes down to who has thier hands in the cookie jar, political connections, money. there are companies in the US that are making rifles-in .223 and .308 with the piston system. 1 is Patriot Ordinance Factory. if the Army signed on to the 416, it would be made right here.

Yes and all POF does is convert AR15's to the piston systems. Which the army's armorers can do very easily. Hell my little sister could convert an AR to a piston system if she had the right tools. Why spend all the money on a new rifle when you can make one correction to the old one? That way there is more money left for ammo/ranges/proper training. Exactly what chances are you reffering to taking?

well, it being that easy, why don't they start working on it. the chance iam talking about is when you pull the trigger you get "click" instead of "boom". some say thiers never jammed, others say they have. when you talk about money for training and ranges, are you saying the marksmanship of Soldiers and Marines are sub-par?

I dont know why the pentagon is choosing to buy a whole new weapon system rather than just fixing the one they have. When you pull the trigger and get a click that can be many of things ....Bad primer in the round, mechanical issues due to excess carbon, worn parts,weapon is not properly maintained, the only thing the piston system will fix is the excess carbon. All of the other problems listed, any weapon system will have these problems over time if not maintained properly. The kit costs about 150-300 dollars depending on the quality of the conversion kit your buying. I bought one from POF USA and have had no problem with my personally owned AR firing. It was very easy to install and have had no problems since.

Diablo, good luck with the conversion kit. its a good move. one of the problems with the M-16's in the field today is that they are old. i would feel a helluva lot beter if, in a running gunbattle that stretches over the course of 14 or so hours of constant firing, in that environ, i know that rifle will fire. the 16's are getting old. over the course of those terror filled hours, the LAST thing you want is a jam.

quote:

Originally posted by RHYNO506:
Diablo, good luck with the conversion kit. its a good move. one of the problems with the M-16's in the field today is that they are old. i would feel a helluva lot beter if, in a running gunbattle that stretches over the course of 14 or so hours of constant firing, in that environ, i know that rifle will fire. the 16's are getting old. over the course of those terror filled hours, the LAST thing you want is a jam.

Well there is one flaw i ran into with the piston system...Most standard AR rail systems do not have enough clearence space due to how the piston system is slightly larger than the gas tube. You have to machine the inside of the rail above the piston system to make it fit with a standard rail system. Thats why POF USA has those huge bulky rails. You can still fit a standard rail though you just have to know a machinest and have him shear away about 1/8 of an inch where the piston system sets flush with the rail. The rail still has plenty of meat to survive very rough conditions after the "surgery"