The title explains it all, and in my opinion, the HK with its unblemished performance, seems to be one hell of a choice, seeing as how it is stated in Army Times that for 800-1450$ it can be fitted to the standards of the armed forces, and if our government isn't willing to dish out 125 more dollars for a more reliable and and easier to maintain rifle they are under mining the soldiers, his life depends on his rifle and if it fails he risks death if he doesn't hunker down and or get the hell out of dodge. BTW, the M-4 is only 800-1300 so in my opinion it's a good deal why don't the guys on the hill see that?

Great another one of these threads. It is more than a hundred and some dollars for the HK. There have been tests done not only by the gov, but by independant companies. The piston system is nothing new or special, and it offers nothing in terms of reliability over gas tube.

I know it's not new, but it's mainly for the fact that HK offered the government a contract for each rifle for that pricing as stated in the article, and I myself have fired both the M-4 and the 416, and it does indeed show a large deal of improvement on reliability, I have seen it first hand and it in my opinion has proven to my point that it is more of a worth while weapon than what we have essentially been using for 4 decadeds (the whole AR-15 type rifles).

The Army plans to buy about 100,000 M4s in fiscal 2008. For this large a buy, each M4 without accessories costs about $800, Colt Chief Executive Officer William Keys said. As part of the contract, though, each M4 comes with a rail system for mounting optics and flashlights, a backup iron sight, seven magazines and a sling — additions that raise the price for each M4 package to about $1,300, according to Defense Department budget documents.

The price of each 416 “will range anywhere from $800 to $1,425 depending on volume and accessories,” said H&K’s CEO John Meyer Jr.

If you want proof, heres the article stating it.

the hk 416 only is better because of it's gas piston borrowed from the g3. lets not buy a whole expensive gun but a small gas piston. Am I right?

Yeah, I could see the compromise in that I've heard from a couple buddies of mine stationed in Okinawa that they were swapping out the AR style gas feed systems and putting in the piston rods of 416's in place so I could see how it could be a viable upgrade to the current issue of the jams and such of the M-4's current construct.

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but it's mainly for the fact that HK offered the government a contract for each rifle for that pricing as stated in the article,

If that is true then why did HK sell the same weapon package they offered us to Norway for almost 2k per weapon?

I'd have to find that out I'm not exactly sure as to why but they may have just been putting out offers to nations as a back up it may have been offered at or around the same time as the U.S was offered the 800-1425$ per weapon deal.

Alright, if what I've found out is correct, it includes along with the guns and outfitting, spare parts and maintenance for 10-15 years.(By maintenance, I don't mean total overhauls I mean just repairs to the rifle that aren't too serious)

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spare parts and maintenance for 10-15 years.(By maintenance, I don't mean total overhauls I mean just repairs to the rifle that aren't too serious)

That is still a high number. We have our own armorers. So the maintance deal is an empty offer and they know it. The parts deal is nothing special either. And we already have accessories that will work for them.

Now go look at the unit replacement cost for an M-4, and for the M16A4. Tell me what is is the better buy.

Remember that all the testing done by both sides of the fence say that gas piston does not greatly increase th reliability of the weapon. So you can not count that into this.

If you would like to see the studies that I speak of check out one of the other dozen threads on this subject.

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Originally posted by Sergeant_Deppe:
...and if it fails he risks death if he doesn't hunker down and or get the hell out of dodge.

Okay, going into a war zone is a risky business to start with. If your in the line of fire your bound to get shot. The only question is how lethal is the wound? WITH OR WITH OUT A RIFLE a soldier risks death if he, "doesn't hunker down or get the hell out of dodge." If your that worried about risking your life you shouldn't have gone into the Army.

I was refering to the fact that once your rifle jams and if you don't implement measures to fix it you pretty much are ****ed if you don't have your rifle, its not the fact that I'm worried about risking my life, its just I want a more dependable rifle I know won't jam on me when I'm in the heat of a fire fight.

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Originally posted by Sergeant_Deppe:
...its just I want a more dependable rifle I know won't jam on me when I'm in the heat of a fire fight.

Good luck. Every rifle will jam on you from time to time. It makes no difference if your in the middle of a battle or on the range. All you can do is know your rifle and its quarks, and make sure its clean. You can't pick and choose what you will shoot in batle. Yes, there are some exceptions but the main idea is don't waist your time questioning the governments decisions but to try to prevent the rifle from jaming the best you know how.

Hell, trust me I clean my M-4 religously and it's still jammed on me while firing it.

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Hell, trust me I clean my M-4 religously and it's still jammed on me while firing it.

Then you were maintaining it improperly.

No, it's just the gun jams once in a while due to extended fire fights or time on the range leave alot of carbon residue

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No, it's just the gun jams once in a while due to extended fire fights or time on the range leave alot of carbon residue

You are talking to a man that has been there and done that.

I have never, not one single time had a problem with the weapon when it was not user error, or problems with the mags.

If you use the proper amount of lube the carbon will wear off with use. If you add too little then it will build up and may cause problems. But it takes a lot, hell huge numbers of rounds have to be fired for that to happen. Add too much clp and the carbon will gunk up and dork you all up.

Too much clp also causes other problems.

I am not calling you an idiot or anything. But you seem to fall into the group of guys that listened to this guy and that guy instead of reading the publication to see if they were correct.

I was unable to clean my M4 during the push for Fallujah. I never had one single malfunction. My M4 was not new.

I dunno then man, I clean that gun lube it and make sure the gun is working right but I tend to get that one little unlucky streak where there will be the issues with the ejection of spent shells.

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the hk 416 only is better because of it's gas piston borrowed from the g3. lets not buy a whole expensive gun but a small gas piston. Am I right?

I think you mean G36, the G3 is a delayed blowback recoil operated rifle...

The pistion driven solution is more reliable than the direct impingement system. No ifs ands or buts about it. Can this be mitigated with proper maintenance? Yes. Although after 300-500 rounds reliablity will inevitably start to degrade, the point at which it becomes wholly unacceptable varies based on a number of factors.

It should be noted that HK has made improvements to barrel life, and the magazine, which are independant to the change of action...

Luckily our brave fighters are not often put into a situation where they have to fire 1000 rounds(or more) without a cleaning.
And wisely, most users are going to be outfitted with the proper brushes, picks, lubes, etc. and (most importantly) training to keep the weapon functioning.

If you can guarantee the situation will always be as such, than direct impingement is just fine. It is undboubtedly more accurate as the mass of the piston going back and forth introduces an accuracy reducing harmonic.

Although definately not recommended, the manufacturer states the piston system is good for several thousand rounds without maintenance, an order of magnitude increase. Although many are quick to find fault with elements of the design (ironic given that the AR system was given decades to fix its issues, HK get one chance a perfection), I haven't heard that figure questioned

I guess its up to the experts to decide if that loss in accuracy is worth the near order-of-magnitude increase in extreme-situation reliability.

According to my friends on SOCNET, the HK416 is a great design with many of the strengths and less of the weaknesses than the standard M4. Yes, it is true that the gas piston would reduce cleaning time and would allow the bolt to be less exposed to high heat. HOWEVER, the main issue with today's M16/M4 failures has been, according to many on SOCNET, the magazines. HK has corrected both with their system. However, HK has a reputation, especially among the SOF community, for being inflexible. They know better than the operator, so he better shut his mouth. They also have a reputation for being outrageously expensive, as you know, and being very unaccommodating to the civilian market as of late (according to disgruntled HK fans). There is currently no plans to make a civilian legal HK416, as there was also no plan to make a civilian legal XM8. Granted, there are good civie guns like HK91, 93, and SL8, but as of right now, they haven't been very pro-2nd Amendment.

Also, one guy at SOCNET, a true BTDT who now is a salesman for contractors, LE, and the civilian market, got to try out a bunch of different piston ARs including the 416, POF's rifles, and LWRC's guns. He said that he thought LWRC was by far the best. The problem with them is that they are a small company that, as of yet, does not possess the capacity to manufacture enough rifle to supply the military.

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the hk 416 only is better because of it's gas piston borrowed from the g3. lets not buy a whole expensive gun but a small gas piston. Am I right?

Not quite. Either you meant G36 or you don't know about the G3. The G36 has a short stroke piston system. The G3 is a delayed blowback system. There is no gas piston on the G3.

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the HK with its unblemished performance

The XM8 was pretty blemished.

Overall, though, I would not oppose the HK416. The BTDTs like it, so I'll take their word for it.