quote:

Originally posted by geejaydee:
"Only one of us is playing games...?"

Funny, I thought you were accusing me of this,

...gjd

YOU FINALLY GOT AN ANSWER CORRECT!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by jacoastie:
IMO george has ZERO credibility because of his game playing. I wonder how long he will be allowed to continue his passive agressive cartoon posting BS.

I like it..there is a no link law already on these forums ...why remove all the fun?

I would hope that you would agree that the liberal left is out numbered by the right on these forums.

a picture is said to be worth a thousand words jac so...think of it as a equalizer.

I do know how you feel though..everytime rush hangs up on a liberal caller..or late night foxnews makes fun .

what news channel has obama not appeared on as a guest?

this topic has been ran to death.

But did,nt you and scrounge tell me you believe in personal responsability?

If so!

What could be more of a personal responsability than taking the problem of paying for heathcare off of all the tax payers and placing it on the backs of the individual?(now if only we could do something about the charles manson types getting having there healthcare paid for at the expense of hard working citzens)

If i get into numerous accidents my car insurence goes up..and rightly so.

If my health goes bad do to lack of a good diet or lack of excersize my health insurence should go up too..but not at the tax payers expense.

the left has a good ideal..the right just can't stand it..if bush would have came up with it..you would have loved it.

moderate sends.

quote:

Originally posted by spacecowboy1:

quote:

Originally posted by jacoastie:
IMO george has ZERO credibility because of his game playing. I wonder how long he will be allowed to continue his passive agressive cartoon posting BS.

I like it..there is a no link law already on these forums ...why remove all the fun?

I would hope that you would agree that the liberal left is out numbered by the right on these forums.

a picture is said to be worth a thousand words jac so...think of it as a equalizer.

I do know how you feel though..everytime rush hangs up on a liberal caller..or late night foxnews makes fun .

what news channel has obama not appeared on as a guest?

this topic has been ran to death.

But did,nt you and scrounge tell me you believe in personal responsability?

If so!

What could be more of a personal responsability than taking the problem of paying for heathcare off of all the tax payers and placing it on the backs of the individual?(now if only we could do something about the charles manson types getting having there healthcare paid for at the expense of hard working citzens)

If i get into numerous accidents my car insurence goes up..and rightly so.

If my health goes bad do to lack of a good diet or lack of excersize my health insurence should go up too..but not at the tax payers expense.

the left has a good ideal..the right just can't stand it..if bush would have came up with it..you would have loved it.

moderate sends.

This might be the most ridiculous post of all time, at least in tthe top ten.

Please explain how a taxpayer being forced to foot a government sponsored health care plan, adds up to PERSONAL responsibility?

if bush would have came up with it..you would have loved it.

100% completely wrong.

moderate sends

quote:

what a joke

quote:

Please explain how a taxpayer being forced to foot a government sponsored health care plan, adds up to PERSONAL responsibility?

Lol..Your paying for a goverment sponsored health care plan right now!

Who do you think paid for Oct-O-Mom to have all those kids ?

The Plan forces those who don't have health insurance to get healthcare ..plain and simple.

Or face the Death Panel jest kidding
Gotta love foxnews..and rush NOT..i am Glad the President set that straight.

Welcome back, Steve. Your postings (that always seem to 'cut to the quick') have been missed by some.

Try not to get angry at some of the TOS-violating personal attacks from some of the folks on here.

Stick around!

...gjd

quote:

Originally posted by spacecowboy1:

quote:

Please explain how a taxpayer being forced to foot a government sponsored health care plan, adds up to PERSONAL responsibility?

Lol..Your paying for a goverment sponsored health care plan right now!

Who do you think paid for Oct-O-Mom to have all those kids ?

The Plan forces those who don't have health insurance to get healthcare ..plain and simple.

Or face the Death Panel jest kidding
Gotta love foxnews..and rush NOT..i am Glad the President set that straight.

And i'm not happy about it...just as you seem to be unhappy with it...WHY ON EARTH WOULD I WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO JUMP IN DEEPER AND MAKE IT 100 TIMES WORSE?

As far as death panels goes...Take a peek at Oregon's fine example. President Obamsa set nothing straight...his quoir just agreed...the rest of us use common sense and review examples of the government systems in place RIGHT NOW. My friend Jim died because Canada's system made him wait weeks for a procedure, one that our "bad" system routinely does hours after a heart attack, insurance or not, an angiogram is performed.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: scrounge,

quote:

Try not to get angry at some of the TOS-violating personal attacks from some of the folks on here.

Rock throwing again? There is a saying about that type behavior for people in glass houses.

Back on topic..There is nothing wrong with my current health care plan.

Having retired from one goverment job..and working at a 2nd retirement from another.

But I do realize that not everyone wants or can join or retire from the services ..and not everyone can afford Health care (fact check wal-mart is the largest employer in the U.S and there known for low wages part/time help. there are also lots of americans simply out of work from other careers).

the conservatives had control for all 8 of George W. Bush terms..and i don't remember any healthcare reform ideals of any kind being mentioned during that time. Do You?

( OFF TOPIC :I do remember G.W.B wanting us to put are SS dollars in the stockmarket )

Scrounge i live in florida sorta in the middle of the state near silversprings ..on 5 ac's about as far from the water as you can get and live on a pennisula anyway's..2 of my 3 niehbors are canadian's (i only see them about 5 months outta the year )and i have asked them if they envy are healthcare system here..and they laughed and told me not NO but HELL NO !

All that aside ..I don't doubt your story..and i am sorry for the death of your friend.

I suppose there are canadians that envy our healthcare ..all i am saying is i have not met them.

Anyways i,ve enjoyed arguing with you as i am sure George does too.

I also agree to disagree with you two..who knows maybe even agree to agree with you once in a while..now post some conservatives cartoons every now in then if you can find some... sc

PS..I enjoy the parodies from rush too(the earth is a ball of fire ..I listen to him once in a while (sorry Mr.President)but i just don't take him seriously.

quote:

PS..I enjoy the parodies

Steve.... Here's a good parody you might appreciate:

http://pol.moveon.org/insurance_execs/?id=17291-9211830-8YM3Clx&t=2

Just cut and paste into the address box on your browser. The strike out will be ignored.

....gjd

Cowboy...

It's clear that whatever line of work you do, you've never met a payroll, so you probably don't even know what you really cost your employers...and you've not been in a position where writing was part of your duties.

quote:

the conservatives had control for all 8 of George W. Bush terms..and I don't remember any healthcare reform ideals of any kind being mentioned during that time. Do You?

I'll give you a chance to correct this glaring (finger pointing) error.



Scrounge i live in florida sorta in the middle of the state near silversprings ..on 5 ac's about as far from the water as you can get and live on a pennisula anyway's..2 of my 3 niehbors are canadian's (i only see them about 5 months outta the year )and i have asked them if they envy are healthcare system here..and they laughed and told me not NO but HELL NO !

Maybe they need a close friend to die before they catch on...Do you comprehend that...I'm not talking about debate games or debate tactics and political this or that...I'm talking about a friend dying because of government controlled health care. I'm still pizzed off that two of us didn't follow through on our plans, we had booked a helo to air lift him back home, complete with surgeon and medical personnel, 60K...but Jim would most likely be alive (the hospital in Halifax made a big fuss about the risk - so we dropped it) so we could be bi t c hing at him about it

This message has been edited. Last edited by: scrounge,

Cowboy:

I served on a duty assignment with a Major in the Canadian Armed Forces. The Major brough his family to the the states - and although it was a short tour - bore the burden and cost of doing so. In our discussions of why - a prominent fact for him - was to have his wife and children receive various routine dental/medical care in Florida - that they'd been waiting for extended periods of time in Canada.

He was willing to pay extra - to get the services sooner, and better - then what he could have got at home - EVENTUALLY - cheaper.

Does that prove anything? Nope. Like your two friends - it is but one datum point in the on going debate.

I do note - that even the Canadian government is finally admitting they have a problem with their program and they need to fix it.

There are things about our existing - market driven - health care system that rightfully need to be fixed too. Tort reform, portability of existing insurance, consumer protections/rights, choice, competition across state lines, cost shifting, etc etc etc.

HOWEVER - the discussion isn't about real reform in Washington D.C. It's about power. It's about utopia. It's about removing choice - not facilitating choice.

Mandatory Insurance - okay. I might buy that if the mandatory insurance is "minimally required" catastrophic type coverage. However, mandatory insurance requiring multiple issues such a end-of-life counseling (for a 20 year old?), abortion or pregnancy (for a 55 year old and/or Christian against abortion), for gender reassignment surgery, etc etc etc makes NO SENSE to me.

That's why I would favor tax credits versus fines or excise tax penalties. That's why I would favor changing the HSA law to allow carryover of set-aside health accounts from year to year instead of use it or lose it rules. That's why I would favor - common sense regulation that would allow health companies to compete (Choice) across state lines. That's why I would favor allowing folks more choice in choosing from a cafeteria style menu ofoptions even in Employeer sponsor programs.

There is a lot we COULD DO but won't do - with the current MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY mentality in D.C.

But charging peter to cover paul - especially when paul doesn't want coverage, or is too lazy to work for or aside for coverage make no sense to me.

Hope that makes sense.
Best Wishes

quote:

Originally posted by edgykatid:
Please, no thread drift....

Did you actually type that with a straight face?!?!?!?!?

These guys couldn't stay on topic if the topic was how to hammer a nail

I've got too much medical insurance coverage, and it's paid for with other peoples money! A good plan from a good non-union blue collar job, paid for (in a roundabout way) everytime you buy gasoline or oil, and tricare (retired) paid (in a fairly direct way) out of your tax dollars.

I'm a healthy old Sagamore, so I don't see the medicine man very often, I have no idea which insurance is gonna pay for what. I just pay a co-pay if they ask for it, and pay the bill if they send me one.

The way it ought to be is... I pay for routine stuff. I pay for insurance to cover major stuff... If I decide to. On other hand, if I decide to smoke and drink and dance the hoothchie -coo until I'm broke with no insurance, can't breathe, and need a liver transplant, well I ought to allowed sing my death song and be gathered to my ancestors. I do not want the government to be my medicine man or nanny.

A name I have not seen in these parts for some time. Welcome back.

quote:

Originally posted by Chingach****:
I've got too much medical insurance coverage, and it's paid for with other peoples money! A good plan from a good non-union blue collar job, paid for (in a roundabout way) everytime you buy gasoline or oil, and tricare (retired) paid (in a fairly direct way) out of your tax dollars.

I'm a healthy old Sagamore, so I don't see the medicine man very often, I have no idea which insurance is gonna pay for what. I just pay a co-pay if they ask for it, and pay the bill if they send me one.

The way it ought to be is... I pay for routine stuff. I pay for insurance to cover major stuff... If I decide to. On other hand, if I decide to smoke and drink and dance the hoothchie -coo until I'm broke with no insurance, can't breathe, and need a liver transplant, well I ought to allowed sing my death song and be gathered to my ancestors. I do not want the government to be my medicine man or nanny.

You were able to state my position perfectly. You also did it much more eloquently.

Great job.

Ching:

I was a 'lurker' on Fred's Place from work before I retired in '01 (I was too chicken to register and post from the SWS, so I'd stay after work to see what was being discussed). You became my favorite poster. I'm far from a libertarian, but I greatly admired (and learned much from) your eloquent, consistent and totally logical expositions on numerous topics. It was the consistency of the underlying principles across so many different subjects that caught my eye and admiration.

It's great to see you back. Now, if we could just rehabilitate Bill Wells . . . .

v/r - jb

Ugh! Ching's first shot only scratched the hide of this topic. Ching takes a better position, further to the right. Steadies his aim at the heart of the topic, and takes another crack at it.

The problem with my current healthcare:

Too much government involvement, causing inefficiency and increasing costs.

An efficient health care system would have me pay out-of-pocket, the cost of seeing the medicine man for fifteen minutes, to decide if that thing on the top of my ear is a mole or skin cancer. This would cost about 50 bucks if the gummint wasn't involved. In this utopian world I would also pay maybe a few hundred bucks or so a month in health insurance premiums, in case I has skin cancer and had to be skinned. Tan me hide when I'm dead, fred!

Ooops, aim is wavering.

In the inefficient government dominated healthcare system we have...
Government incentives cause my employer to provide "free" health insurance, whether I need it or not, and whether it well tailored to meet my needs or not. This, of course takes away my incentive to purchase my own insurance.

(Dang, Ching is distracted, considers starting topic concerning evils of government dominated education system, government dominated retirement system, government dominated old age health care...Ah, Ching re-sites on current topic.)

Not free...there is no such thing as a free lunch. If the government was not involved, my employer probably would not spend money on health insurance I don't need. They might even decide to put some of the money they would save into my paycheck, or better tools and equipment, or lower prices to our customers, or "free" Coca Colas.

In any case, because of them varmint feds, my employer is spending a lot of money on insurance I don't need, is not well tailored to my healthcare concerns, but I use anyway... because it's "free".

Now, back to my visit to the medicine man. Why does what should cost $50 produce a bill for $130, with me paying a $20 copay, insurance paying $50, and the clinic accepting the total of $70 as full payment? Well, partly because the clinic chooses to be "in network" with the insurance company... because the insurance company actually pays them, and in a timely manner, and a reasonable amount. The government insurance programs, medicaid, medicare, and even TriCare, pay less than a reasonable amount, maybe $30, thus the poor slob that has to pay full price out of pocket, end up paying $130 for a $50 visit, because of government meddling in healthcare.

(Ching believe he as struck his target, but chooses to add anecdotal remarks, just to taunt his foes over on the left.)

My elder daughter, (The Dark Hair darter, not the Yellow Hair),

(Ching gets a little wild in his aim once has struck the blow he intended, and is not compelled to mention that some years ago he re-married the Gray-Hair dyed Yellow that he used to pine away for in a few posts the old-timers 'round here may remember.)

Anyway, the dark hair darter is now a Nurse Practitioner, and her first job was in Minot, ND. Why North Dakota, land of the Lakota Sioux, you ask? Because Canada's government run healthcare systems drives patients (and doctors, etc) south to where heathcare can be obtained. You will find that healthcare is a booming business all along the northern tier of the U.S., as Canadians come south to pay for what they can't get in Canada, because it's "free".

And... an even more whacky tale of too much health insurance. A few years ago, I needed outpatient surgery to repair a hernia. At the time, I was covered by THREE healthcare insurance plans. My Tertiary coverage was TriCare, which paid nothing. My secondary coverage was through my wife's employer, Group Health Cooperative (GHC), a big union friendly, er, HMO, I guess. In any case they run their own clinics and hospitals and provide their employees and family gold plated health insurance, whether they need it or not. Primary insurer was oh, Blue Cross, I think, provided by my employer, whether I needed it, or wanted it, or not, because of government incentives.

Anyway, I had it done at a GHC hospital. The bill was several thousand, maybe like $10,000 dollars, I forget, for about half hour under the knife, and half day in the hospital. Blue Shield paid a bunch, and GHC covered the rest. I paid nothing out-of-pocket.

Did I get "Free Healthcare"?

(Ching cannot leave rhetorical questions alone, and answers is own question.)

NO! A whole bunch of money (THOUSANDS!) was paid so I could spend half a day in the hospital, and it was paid for with other peoples money!

(Ching has a notion that (union) Boeing employees are the main source of GHC's patients, therefore, you may have helped pay for it by paying a few pennys extra last time you bought an airline ticket.)

So government incentives, produced an inefficient and expensive outcome, giving me "free healthcare" by spreading the cost over a zillion people and hiding the cost in a zillion little things like higher prices to consumers and lower wages to employees, and yes maybe lower profits to the mean old rich guys that don't need all that money and exploit the working man by... giving him a job?

Good Night.

(Ching cleans tomahawk and rifle, and seek his natural rest in preparation for another day.)

(Ching unsheathes scalping knife of English manufacture in preparation to put a final touch on this rapidly dying topic.)

Oh, howdy Pat, didn't recognize ya at first! Scrounge and Honorary,,, thanks for the welcome back. Things have changed a little around the place, new rules and new faces, but really I'm amazed at how many of y'all stull hang around here. I do miss Bill W, but am afraid to ask ... How 'bout Lisa B., does she still drop by?

Salba! I don't think we've met, but I like yer stuff. Pretty much what I'd say if my fevered brain wasn't chasing after a gazillion (1,000 zillion) aspects of the topic at hand, a zillion related topics, and eleven skillion zillion thoughts that randomly appear when I should be about the task of denouncing socialism. I admire your calm, confident, and well aimed shots. And I'm going to borrow a few points you made in order to take a few more stabs at this thing before I grab it by the scalping tuft and...

NOW THEN....

What's wrong with my healthcare?

ONE: Government has driven up the cost by failing to reform the tort system. NOW DON"T LET YOUR EYES GLAZE OVER, this is important! When something bad happens, like say, somebody dies, in a hospital (of all places) somebody gets sued and all too often somebody gets awarded a million dollars, and the lawyers gets most of it... and that drives the cost of healthcare, and healthcare insurance through the roof.

(Ching ponders... if sailors can't sue anybody for malpractice in their government healthcare, I wonder if Britons, or Canadians, or say Cubans have anybody they can sue?)

Ching has heard that the worst type of medicine to be in for malpractice suits is OB/GYN. Many pay more for malpractice insurance than they take home as salary. (Uh, that is, the cost to (whoever the heck pays for healthcare) of OB/GYN malpractice insurance is greater than the cost of an OB/GYN MD's salary). Which leads to...

TWO. Defensive Medicine. This is when the OB/GYN performs a C-section at the first hint of trouble. Because babies are more likely to survive and thrive after delivery by having mom's belly cut open than through the alternative route, and OB/GYN's don't like being sued for a frabillion dollars because the baby died or had brain damage, etc. Defensive medicine also is stuff like expensive test procedures that are probably not necessary, but just in case we get sued we had better test for everything.

So, yeah, Tort Reform, and eye glazingly boring subject, perenially run up the flag pole conservatives and libertarians, and shot down by socialists and moderates, would go a long way toward making healthcare a lot more affordable.

THREE. State Mandated Coverages. Another well intentioned government meddling idea that drives up healthcare costs. The latest thing around here is a push to require all health insurance policys to cover autism. Well, at least that sounds like an actual medical condition, unlike ADD and ADHD which is for the most part just kids behaving badly, or at least kids behaving like bored kids who would prefer to be outside playing. Well, anyway, these government mandated coverages, again, drive up the cost of health insurance. Without 'em more people could afford to buy the stuff.

FINALLY. I see this topics been around a month, and nobody but us far right kooks has had any real complaint about our current healthcare system. So where is the crisis? You know, the one that's going to bankrupt the nation (as if it wasn't already) if we don't reform it now! Seems like we had a similary crisis back in '93 was it? Seems like '94 was a very good year for us right wing loons, I'm begining to look forward to '10.

(Ching wipes away the gore and replaces scalping knife in it's customary carry holster. Leaving you with a final comforting thought before he retires to his humble pallet for the night.)

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men (Ching adds... and rough ladies) stand ready in the night to visit violence on those would do us harm." George Orwell

Sweet Dreams