This is a belief I have held for several years, some things going on today look very similar to the Roman empire before it fell.

The obsession with sports

The idolatry of public officials and stars

The elevation of the elete class

The desire to spread democracy throughout the world.

I am starting to believe we will implode from within.

How 'bout dat free bread and circuses?

(Ching fires off quick shot, and retreats toward his history books.)

And your point is

quote:

Originally posted by Chingach****:
How 'bout dat free bread and circuses?

(Ching fires off quick shot, and retreats toward his history books.)

Sorry, a little vague weren't I?

Ching opposes "free" stuff from the government, including bread and circuses. Sees similarity between decline of us and decline of Rome.
More to follow.

A Brief History of Rome, freely adapted from some ol' textbook:

"Once they had ousted (their foriegn king) the dominant aristocratic forces at Rome set up a republic."

(The Roman republic included the concept of separation of powers, separate executive and legislative branches, a separate Senate and Assembly, all more or less democratically elected, and the veto.)

(So far, kind of like U.S. History, you'd almost think the Founding Fathers had read a history book or two.)

"Only...patricians... perhaps 10 percent... held full citizenship."

"The remaining 90 percent... plebians... those engaged in trade, labor, small farmers... had no right to hold office... could amass as much money as they pleased... would eventually gain political emancipation."

(Hmm, still like us.)

"...the chief business of the Roman state: war."

(I hope, not like us.)

(Rome rises.)

(A lot of stuff happens, wars, expansion, stuff like that.)

(Rome begins to fall.)

"Conservative nobilis like Cato... hated the rich men's taste for the luxurious new ways of life..."

"Gracchus brothers... emerged as the champions of the dispossessed."

(Socialists?)

"...wanted to limit the size of estates... resettle landless farmers... on state owned lands... that had been leased to capitalist farmers... and give the city poor... relief by allowing them to buy grain from the state at cost."

"The efforts... failed... the state had to lower the price until the poor were getting there bread free."

(There's that "free" stuff thing, sounds like socialism to Ching.)

"...politics turned unconstitutional.."

"...defied precedent and ran for reelection..."

(Sounds like socialist FDR, communist Hugo Chavez in Venezua, and the tyrant they kicked out of Honduras.)

"...high-minded "New Dealers" blocked by the vested interests or the senators, or unstable radicals whose high-handed methods only added to the discord? Probably both..."

(The author of the textbook sees some comparisons between Rome and United States.)

"...political leadership passed to generals who cared less for principle than for power."

(As in 'Latin' American, 'banana' republics.)

"The downward slide... exposed as a hollow sham the ancient pretense that the emperor shared power with the Senate. Diocletian simply walked out on Rome, leaving the citizens with their free bread and circuses."

(Here comes a long quote, quite a picture, I don't think we are this far along yet, but that Democratic Convention Temple, the cult of personality, the "President Obama gonna save us all", thing. Some similarity.)

"Diocletian indeed now adopted the full trappings of oriental monarchy: he wore silk robes of blue and gold to symbolize the sky and the sun; he sprinkled his hair with gold dust to create a nimbus when light shone down upon him. His clothes glittered with jewels; he wore ruby and emerald bracelets, necklaces and rings; his fingernails were gilded; and his boots--which were to become the new symbol of imperial power-were of purple leather. He entered his throne room carrying a golden scepter topped with a golden ball-the earth-on which was seated a Roman gold eagle with a sapphire in its beak-the heavens. Servants followed sprinkling the air with perfume, and fan bearers spread the scent abroad. Every person in the room sank to the floor until Diocletian was seated on his throne, after which the privileged might kiss the hem of his garment."

(Remember, Rome had begun as a democratic republic, like the U.S.)

"The first Augustus would have been revolted...Rome had seen similar displays... but, even in its degenerate days Rome always hated such display..."

(Some of us have been a little dismayed at the more moderate displays of the current administration.)

"Diocletian... was making a deliberate attempt to elevate the prestige of the emperor-the divine and deified emperor-so high that his divinity would not be shaken by the ambitions of his rivals. It was no accident that Diocletian chose the additional surname Jovius, thus associating himselt with Jupiter (Jove), the ruler of the gods."

(OK, the President has never claimed divinity, but some of his followers do seem to worship him.)

"The bureaucracy grew enormously... the various departments... each had (their) own structure... top officials became a kind of advisory board (Czars?) independent of the Senate... the Senate continued only as a group of privileged magnates."

"The new bureaucratic and military costs required new (taxes)...

(The author of the textbook actually used the word "contributions" for "taxes" right there. Non-biased academic type, I guess. rolleyes.)

"The new bureeaucratic and military costs required new (taxes) from most of the population... force the farm laborer to stay put, work his land, and pay his taxes (got it right that time)... growth of a class of rural resident... attached to the soil... could not be sold apart from the land... when (land) was sold he went with it.... Other men... also bound to their various jobs... sons of bakers had to become bakers (etc.)..."

(That rural resident attached to the soil is called a serf, a kinder, gentler form of slavery. Some of us feel that we are on 'The Road to Serfdom.' Also, in socialist Western Europe, the schools are segregated based on career track, career track is based on standardized testing, like taking the ASVAB and somebody else picks your rate. Similar to ancient Rome.)

"In his efforts to stabilize the economic situation, Diocletian also tried to fix prices, but was thwarted by black-marketing and riots."

(No kidding? Government can't just dictate economic conditions? Rolleyes.)

"Society... became more rigidly stratified than ever before... The combination of this increased social stratification with oriental despotism, a huge bureaucracy, and a continuing dependence on the military made ordinary life extremely bleak: corruption, violence, inequity, and individual despair were frequent."

(Other than reliance on the U.S. military, this describes socialist Europe pretty well.)

"The Roman Empire survived... (though the days... proved numbered)... it's citizens were probably unhappier than they had ever been."

(The U.S. was probably unhappier in the 1930's, but it's hard to say.)

"Rich men could buy acquittals, and poor men were condemned; the depravity of judges and lawyers sold the interests of the poor to the military commanders and influential persons. (special interests?)... Ruinous titles, privileges, and exemptions (special interests?) ate up the fortunes of poor and rich. Every class and profession was exposed to annoyance and the insatiable greed of the imperial tax-collectors. People were eager for any change at all."

(Yep, that sounds like us.)

"Few subjects have been more debated than the reasons for the decline of the Roman Empire."

(Oddly, I don't recall it being debated around here before.)

"The celebrated eighteenth-century historian Edward Gibbon blamed Christianity, charging that it destroyed the civic spirit of the Roman by turning his attention to the afterlife and away from his duties to the state."

(The modern Left view of modern politics?)

"Michael Rostovtzeff, a learned Russion scholar writing in the 1920s and 1930s, attributed the decline in part to the constant pressure of the underprivileged masses to share in the wealth of their rulers, of which there was not enough to go around anyhow.

(The modern Right view of modern politics.)

To rephrase Rostovtzeff. There is not enough wealth to go around to ensure a "living wage" and "universal affordable (whatever)". Attempts to spread the wealth around will only leave us unhappier than we have ever been before, and to our downfall as a great nation. France was a great nation once, too, ya know.

(I knew I'd read that "free bread and circuses" thing somewhere.)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chingachgook,

It might be useful to pay particular attention to the late Roman Republic in the first century BCE. That era saw Rome quickly expand its permanent political control in Gaul, Spain, North Africa, Greece, Asia Minor, Syria, Palestine and Egypt, and, in the process, greatly enrich itself and some of its Senatorial families. The Republic was rocked by a series of civil wars instigated and carried out by political figures like Pompey, Caesar, Crassus, etc. who chose to ignore centuries old restrictions governing the military command structure, (Caesar/Rubicon), and begin using the legions and the fleet for their own political purposes. In the early Republic, the average citizen owed the Roman State military service. By the end of the Republic the military had become professionalized, and most Romans (apart from the aristocratic families who supplied the officer corps) had only a distant connection to the troops who both protected and controlled them. Foreigners began to be recruited to form the rank and file, while the Roman lower and lower middle classes played a dwindling role in their own military. The wealthy increasingly employed slave labor and, in consequence, small tradesmen and small family farms began to disappear. In the Italian countryside the estates of the wealthy, farmed and maintained by legions of slaves grew rapidly. Roman citizenship itself, which at the time of St. Paul was a prized possession, began to be debased. With the arrival of the Empire, all men, both citizen and non-citizen alike, were subject to the whim of the Emperor rather than the protective cloak of Roman law.

Best film genre: Romantic Comedy. Chicks dig 'em, but guys like 'em too!

Worst film genre: Historic Epic. Anybody actually sit all the way through 'Ben Hur' or 'Sparticus'?

Best Romantic Comedy: Joe vs. the Volcano, starring Abe Vigoda as the orange soda guzzling chief, co-starring Tom Hanks, with Meg Ryan in several bit parts. Best line: "whatever happens, we are keeping this luggage."

Do you'se guys think the typical government run school graduate American voter knows what continent Rome is on?

See, the chief needed a volunteer to jump into the volcano, but his people were to uninformed and disengaged, and liked their free orange soda too much to make the sacrifice...

Yeah, I think making a pop culture analogy will get a better response than talkin' bout ancient history. Or maybe we can make a sports analogy...

How's the game, going guys?

Oh, Rome is in Europe... is if you cared... there's a game on ...

How 'bout those Phillies. Ching like horsies, too!

Nah, the U.S. is nothin' like ancient Rome, as long as we got baseball, unemployment checks, and that good on Social Security ponzi scheme goin' on, the U.S. Can never fail.

Do I seem a little sarcastic tonight?
Guess I'll go watch a ball game.

"A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself within. The essential causes of Rome's decline lay in her morals, her class struggle, her failing trade, her bureaucratic despotism, her stifling taxes, her consuming wars."

(-Will Durant, 'Epilogue to Caesar and Christ, 1944)

Did y'all know Columbus was an Italian? Italy, that's in Europe... somewhere near Rome, ever hear of it?

"To know nothing of what happened before you were born is to remain ever a child"

(-Cicero, 106-43 B.C.)

He was some Roman guy. Ever hear of him?

"I only supply the words, and I have plenty of those."

(Cicero)

Nunc est bibendum!
Now is the time to drink!

(-Horace, another Roman guy, a moderate politically.)

"When the candles are out all women are fair."

(-'Conjugal Precepts', Plutarch 46-120 A.D., a Greek, but what the heck, a pretty good quote, no?)

"The people long for only two things: bread and circuses."

(-Juvenal, c.55-130 A.D., Roman social critic, feared that Rome might not endure given its moral decay, I wonder if he was right?)

If you care to mix historical fiction with Vampires, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro set a couple of her Saint Germain Novels in ancient Rome. There are only about three major cities in the world in which I would care to live. Rome is on the list. Too bad the early inhabitants lost their vision so quickly . . .
Too bad we are heading in the same direction.

All forms of governments fail. Some faster than others. It doesn't matter what type of government you're rooting for, the world changes and governments come and go.

The world does not change. Governments come and go.

France was a great nation once, too, ya know... Here's how it fell.

"(Louis XIV) empowered his chief adviser Colbert to grant monopolies, regulate manufacturing, nationalize industries, embargo imports, and tax agriculture to subsidize loss-making state-owned industries... a system known as... mercantilism. Mercantilism and wars bankrupted the world's richest country and fired the inflation that later consumed Louis's Bourbon dynasty."

(Big government, if not quite socialist, economics)

"Louis in 1685 revoked the Edict of Nantes, which had granted religious liberty to French Protestants... convert... or be enslaved. Perhaps 250,000... fled... including the leading industrialists in the banking, engineering, silk, textile, paper, and printing industries."

(Did you know that leading industrialists are fleeing states like California and Michigan to escape oppressive socialist government regulation?)

"French intellectuals supported Louis's 'revocation' and slaughter because he was the self-styled 'protector of the French Academy'... French playwrights... performed plays in the gilded halls of Versailles while France's peasants died of starvation by the millions."

(Intellectuals have a long history of support for tyranny. Hitler was quite popular in the Germany Academy, and much of his support came from College students. Communism, socialism, and radical social change are perenial favorites in the U.S. Academy, and Hollywood.)

"On his deathbed, leaving an impoverished state after a seventy-two-year reign, Louis said 'I loved war too much'"

(Well, yeah, that too. Like the Roman Empire, the Soviet Empire, Third Reich, etc., Bourbon France was rather fond of military conquest. The War of Spanish Succession (1701-1713) some would say was really the first world war. It reduced France's population from 23 million to 19 million due to war-related famine. Big government is bad in a lot of ways.)