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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Middle East Did Israel STEAL their land from the refugees?|
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Member |
Hi folks!
Well, I was recently "suspended" on the basis that I mispoke when I pointed out that the refugees / Palestinians have been fighting for the "Right of Return" for decades, because their homes and land were stolen from them in the "creation" of Israel by the European Jews who wanted to create a Peaceful Jewish Homeland. This is from a moderator: Moderator hat on Doug, you are over the line with the above comment. It is a proven fact that the United Nations created a two nation-state solution to the conflict between Israel and the neighboring countries. The solution was accepted by Israel, and rejected by the Arab leaders. Israel never stole any land. So, I thought that apparently this would be a good discussion point to conduct. Obviously you already know that I believe unless you PAY PEOPLE for their homes and land, it must be theft if you take their lands from them. AND, that even the United Nations, can not morally disguise a land theft from CITIZENS by saying they recognize the formed nation. In fact the UN also stated to the ISraelis: United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 of Nov. 12, 1948 11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible; As you can see, the UN advised Israel to either let them have their homes back, or pay them. Israel did neither. So, here we are, the USA, protecting Israel from the fall out of screwing millions of people out of their homes and lives. So, what do YOU think? This message has been edited. Last edited by: DougSabbag, |
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Experienced Member |
Give it back to the Canaanites. The Hebrews, by Moses direction and Joshua's leadership, stole it from the Canaanites, who never did anything to the Hebrews, and the rule from Moses was genocide. Unjustified occupation. And they said 'god' told them to. At least that's the story they tell from back then, and some of them continue that justification... of course, we could take it back to Abraham's affair with his wife's handmade, Hagar and that off-spring. Sex and violence, great entertainment. But it's just really hearsay.
1948... go back to the Ottoman Empire and WW-I. Prior to that the Jews and Arabs got along fine with each other... the Turks were the problem. The Brits (and French) stepped in and in their usual Colonial style, divided up the booty that eventually led to the UN and the formation of Israel. (It was actually suggested by Andre Gromyko(sp?), USSR Ambassador to the UN! He even suggested the name 'Israel'.) Truth is stranger than fiction! |
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Member |
So, (ancient history aside) are the Israelis guilty of stealing the land and homes of the STILL LIVING REFUGGEES?
I'm not talking about biblical history, but about the CURRENT course of events which are still being CURRENTLY fought about. The creation of Israel was from lands which people (under the administration of Britain) were "displaced" from; creating FOUR MILLION REFUGEES. These people were simple farmers, (not terrorists), and have been fighting for their right to return ever since. So, shouldn't they be "upset" over losing their homes and land? How would YOU feel if you lost your home and land for NOTHING? Or please tell me how they were PAID? |
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Experienced Member |
I understand. But it didn't start with 1948 UN approval. Anyway, the six day war in 1967, the unjustified and illegal taking of the West Bank from Jordan is still not "approved" of by many of the UN nations, including the US. Israel are occupiers, just as was the USSR of Poland, East Germany, etc.
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DGS-
comments 1-4 are said from the point of view of International Law. 1)The resolution of UN GA is NOT binding. Look in the UN charter if you do not believe me. What is binding is Security council resolutions. GA opinion is advisory only. 2)Nothing in the 194 resolution orders Israel to do so. Notice the wording. 3)In order to take the lands from someone, this someone must be in legal possession of the land in the first place. I am sorry to inform you, but Jordanians were in illegal possession of 67 lands from the beginning. The Palestinians were not in possession of the land, since that they have refused to accept the partition plan in 1948. So all your "legal" accusations do not hold water. 4)According to International law, the creation of Israel was a legal fact. 5)Historical fact- number of 1948 refugees is 700,000-600,000. Where are the millions? 6)Historical fact-Israel did buy land from Palestinians, which included swamps and desert areas (f.e Hadera and Tel-Aviv). 7)Historical fact-Palestinians have never been in legal possession of this land in the first place, since that it was Ottoman Empire/British Empire/Few notables property. And from moral point of view-It is also wrong to start a war with the intention of killing every single Jew, and than collectively cry for compensation after you loose. |
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Member |
So the European Jews who emmigrated to the area in the post WWII period, were just fine to kick out the inhabitatants who had been living there for generations because this area was under the occupation and control of the British?
Since the British were supportive of the recently abused European Jews, and the British wanted to end their administration / occupation anyway, this was quite acceptable to them. But this was not acceptable to the PEOPLE, was it? These people had been under the occupation of the Turks; then the British; and were effectively "sold out" by the British on their way out of the area. Oh, and hundreds of thousands of people or four million, either way that is a lot of people to kick out of THEIR homes. If YOU and your family were one of those who were not allowed to return to your home, as your previous "occupier" gave a tacit approval to a new occupier who desired your home / land, and were not paid for your "lost" land, wouldn't you be a tad upset about being the "loser" all the way around? Does what happened to these people sound like a good example of "Justice for all" to you? To be occupied then lose everything to new occupiers who the world felt sorry for does not seem to me to be a very smooth transition to me. And for America to support such a messy injustice to so many civilians, again because of a feeling of sympathy for WWII victims, seems to me to be contrary to American Principles of Justice for ALL and EQUALITY under the LAW. Perhaps America, or Britain, or Europe, or the UN should have "given" land(s) which they owned, which were NOT presently occupied by inhabitants, to the European Jews? Assuming there was a real NEED for European Jews to be GIVEN land at all..... |
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DGS-
1)I see that you have agreed to points 1-4 (you have not responded to them). Am i correct? 2)Moral/ethical point: The Jews that immigrated to Israel before WW2 have done so because no one INCLUDING US (US had immigration quotas) have wanted them, AND they gave been kicked out from central Europe due to Hitler's racial politics. The immigration to Israel/MP after WW2 was mainly due to the same reasons. No one wanted them, and Judo-phobia was still rampant. So from moral point of view, DGS, it is YOU (US, Europe, Canada, Australia etc) that are responsible. You refused to let us in, and we had no place to go. It is very surprising that we wanted to go somewhere, were we were more or less wanted (according to Balfour declaration). If you have acted in more MORAL way, and HAVE NOT engaged in Judo-phobic practice, there would have been no reason to create Israel in the first place. So, blame yourself. You deserve it. 3)We have bought the land, and UN (an international body which YOU so like to quote) has decided to give us our state. Here i notice very interesting behavior of yours-When you like what UN says, you rush to quote it. When UN says something that you do not like, you ignore it. In 1948, Arabs decided that they will finish Hitler's handiwork (they have literally declared it). When you declare total war, you should not be surprised at the results if you loose. The results were rather mild by the way. If we have behaved like them, there would have been NO SINGLE ARAB HERE after we have won. So go to cry for justice to some one else. You have no Legal case, and no Moral one as well. Whatever payments we shall give them, they will receive only due to realpolitik, and not because of some misplaced legal/moral arguments. |
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Member |
As I have already said, I am not sufferring from the conflict which Israel and you are experiencing. So, it is YOU and Israel who should consider the application of Justice for ALL, as the REAL solution. Guns, bombs, and even tacit approval(s) from third parties have NOT worked over all these decades. Israel has the world's respect now. So, "do unto others as you would have done to you" would apply here very well now. The REALITY is that millions of people were displaced by the creation of Israel, and still are VERY ANGRY with that injustice. No matter who else (U.N., USA, Britain, etc.) supports that displacement, there are still the VICTIMS to deal with. Debating from the stance that the European Jews were mistreated by Hitler, and therefore should be allowed to destroy and abuse millions of other people, is a very hollow argument indeed. This message has been edited. Last edited by: DougSabbag, |
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Member |
You are absolutely correct. Occupation, whether acknowledged by others, or not, can never replace JUSTICE FOR ALL. |
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Member |
So, if I understand the debate so far, it is basically thought that because the European Jews had been decimated by Hitler, and the remaining Jews after WWII wanted a new peaceful homeland, and considering the British no longer wanted to control the area of the "Palestinians" and nobody wanted to give up THEIR lands, i.e, the USA, Germany, Britain, France, etc., for this new "Jewish Homeland", it is thought that displacing the civilians in the areas of Palestine, to allow the creation of this new State of Israel, would be the best solution. Best solution, by everyones' view EXCEPT the Palestinians!
And now they are labelled "terrorists" as they fight against their occupiers and abusers. Hmmmmm..... seems like the injustices which were being foisted onto the Jews have been given to these poor folks so that the world's conscience could be assuaged post WWII, without taking these Jews into our own countries. But, even with UN acknowledgment, the Balfour Agreement, and US support, were not the Palestinians homes still "stolen", at least as far as THEY are concerned? |
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Member |
Well, Palestinians certainly think so, DGS.
Does not make it any more true. You continue to ignore the fact that the "displaced" people were the result of a failed attempt to kill the entire Jew population in MP. We have not stolen anything. It is called spoils of war. You try to kill someone, prepare to pay the price of failure. I see that you call them "citizens". They are not OUR citizens (they do not have our citizenship or anything similar). I never said that we are entitled to mistreat others due to our own mistreatment. I merely say DGS, that instead of blaming the Jews for misplacing Palestinians (as you claim),you should blame yourself. It was your handiwork from day 1. Should you have acted in such moral way as you like to impose on others, the entire situation would have been avoided. Reducetension-The occupation of the West bank was justified, because Jordan has attacked us. It was defeated, and had to pay the price. In case you think that it is wrong to take territories after being attacked from them, set an example and return to Mexico whatever you have conquered. |
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Granted CENTURIES AGO lands were stolen from others. However, in THIS CASE, the victims are STILL ALIVE, and STILL FIGHTING BACK. So, keep ducking as long as you continue to refuse to PAY FOR WHAT YOU STOLE. |
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Member |
So the "free land" was the spoils of war. A war against civilians who were tending their goats and sheep, pruning their fig trees and making Syrian Bread in their ovens. These people were not attacking the Jews IN EUROPE. It was the Jews FROM EUROPE who arrived and attacked them!
That is not a war. A war is between organized armies who have battles, with tanks, ships, platoons, divisions, etc. These were CIVILIANS who were the victims of home invasions by "organized armed thugs". So, with the British looking the other way, these civilian victims were unjustly "displaced" from their homes and became refugees. That injustice has festered into a deep hatred of the Israelis. This is not a healthy situation. Trying to tell them that they should just accept being screwed has not worked over all these decades has it? The only solution is what works amongst the civilized peoples of the world: JUSTICE. Guns, bombs, helicopter gun ships, blockades, bulldozers, and a systematic extermination of your victims is not working either. Otherwise this would be a moot discussion. Instead Israel is creating new life long enemies whenever another refugee is born. As Israel continues to exterminate their victims, they are only shooting themselves, because the population of Jews in Israel is decreasing while the population of Palestinians is increasing. Time is not on Israels side as a zionist race. Israel may well continue, but eventually it WILL become a free and open country where JUSTICE IS THE LAW, unlike now. Any other concept is doomed to failure. Why not see that and embrace justice sooner rather than later? It won't hurt you. It doesn't hurt us in America. We love it. In fact we are much stronger having a population living in freedom and justice. Israel is a very dynamic country, but it can learn a lot from America. Israels' egotistical refusal to relent is costing Israel SO MUCH! Justice works BOTH WAYS... try it before you eschew it. |
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Member |
DGS, war does not have to be between 2 regular armies. We have been attacked by Arab irregulars. They have lost. That is it. We have invaded their homes AFTER they have declared war on us. NOT before. So, all your accusations of "you have robbed them" is fallacy. I repeat my challenge-find some evidence that Jews were forcefully evicting Arabs before 1948 (Evicting from bought land does not count).
DGS, i wonder if YOU would have liked to stay in Europe after you have been slaughtered, robbed, and gassed, and you had only your clothes on your back. And in case you have not known, Pogroms on regular basis were AFTER WW2 as well. So, your notion of "They could have stayed in Europe" is wrong. Edit-The world does recognize (at least if we look on the UN resolution) that we do not have to return the entire 67 territories. If you will read the English version of resolution 242, you will see it. So, your case is again flawed both from legal and from moral point of view. |
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Member |
I am not saying you have to return anything. You could PAY for what you want to keep, OR allow them to return to their lands. BUT, what the WHOLE WORLD has ALWAYS supported is the lawful exchange of land and homes from PURCHASING with MONEY. Anything else is WRONG. Perhaps if you only look at it from the "victors" point of view, it is OK to create a country by forcing the inhabitants to become refugees. But, from a higher view, looking at BOTH sides, there should not have to be a winner and a loser. There should be a mutually positive exchange. This is accomplished when JUSTICE is the law of the land as opposed to theft by force. |
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Ecce Agnus Dei |
 Soo sad -- Too Bad. I had hoped that you would have been suspended for longer... Now after you come back... You start up where you left off. Like Arielski said months ago: "Doug S. is a broken record". Tell us D.S.--- How much does the Damascus Government pay you to write your stuff ? You are either a paid agent of a foriegn (Terror sponsoring )nation ( Syria), or you are a deranged jew-hater whose needle is certainly "stuck in the groove". Until you give up your land/dock in Florida and return it to the Seminole Indians, your continued rants about Israel and Israelis are bogus. |
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Member |
As a point of reference, it really amazes me that anyone would attempt to rationalize the displacement and attempted extermination of millions of people because the UN said it was OK. Or that the UN says we only have to do such and such to make it all better.
This sort of action against civilians is NEVER OK, no matter how much support you can buy from others. |
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Member |
So, the concept of Justice for ALL is only something which terrorists could subscribe to? We Americans can not support a just and non-violent land acquisition? I can't be an American, (from Boston), because I support EQUALITY under the law, and Justice for ALL? I have to wonder where YOU are from if you have so completely forgotten the AMERICAN PRINCIPLES which serve us so well. The Seminole Indians and all the American Indians were screwed too. And various other groups throughout history have also been screwed. What I keep bringing up is the CURRENT FACT that the victims of the Israeli "displacement" are still living and still fighting for JUSTICE. They are fighting to be PAID for their grievances and losses. And they won't go away because the Apaches or the victims of the Roman Empire have. Just like if YOU were attacked today. I doubt if you would just accept your losses because others have been screwed in the past. That is NOT a valid reason to screw people, because others have also been screwed. What we live by now is the RULE OF LAW. So, remember what you SWORE to DEFEND, (Mr. Behind the Lamb of God), and apply those American Principles in LIFE, here and there and everywhere, and then you have to agree, this is an atrocity, and America should not be supporting that, ever. For someone who chooses to associate with scripture and the Bible, (Ecce Agnus Dei), I would think you would APPLY the Christian values in your views, too. This message has been edited. Last edited by: DougSabbag, |
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Member |
Doug, the refugee camps have been created after 1948. So it does not prove anything except what i have said-we have not illegally displaced anyone prior to war of independence. So, the only thing you are able to prove, is that we have kicked some Arabs from their homes during the war.
Since that i have never disagreed with that, it is not a big achievement on your part. I also notice that you are unable to answer a simple question-Where should have Jews gone immediately after WW2? No state has wanted them, and they were "pogromed" on regular basis in Europe. All i can hear from you is "they should not have gone there and displaced the poor Palestinians that lived there from time immemorial". Fine, name another possible destination. The "From time immemorial" part is BS, by the way. Arabs started to immigrate to Palestine alongside with Zionists, because Zionists payed them for their work, and created better environment over all. So here is yet another fallacy of yours. |
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Member |
Right, the Jews have made the lives of the Palestinians (85% unemployed), just wonderful! They should thank you daily, instead of hating you for their lives being ruined. |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Middle East Did Israel STEAL their land from the refugees?
