Another Forgotten Group of WW II Sailors!!

General Quarters!
All Hands to Battle Stations!
General Quarters!

Myth: The U.S. Merchant Marine of World War II only operated the ship, while the Armed Guard manned the guns!

Fact: The U.S. Merchant Marine of World War II was an Armed Force and the vessels were Armed Warships. Naval Armed Guard and Merchant Mariners worked as a team manning the guns.

DON'T GIVE UP THE SHIP!

Instructions to Masters from the Secretary of the Navy, Frank Knox

Op-23L-JH (SC) S76-3 Serial 097923

NAVY DEPARTMENT, WASHINGTON

March 30, 1942

From: The Secretary of the Navy.

To : Master S.S. GEORGE DEWEY
7225 Gross Tons.

SUBJECT: Instructions for Scuttling Merchant Ships.

1. It is the policy of the United States Government that no U. S. Flag merchant ship be permitted to fall into the hands of the enemy.

2. The ship shall be defended by her armament, by maneuver, and by every available means as long as possible. Then, in the judgment of the Master, capture is inevitable, he shall scuttle the ship. Provision should be made to open sea valves, and to flood holds and compartments adjacent to machinery spaces, start numerous fires and employ any additional measures available to insure certain scuttling of the vessel.

3. In case the Master is relieved of command of his ship, he shall transfer this letter to his successor, and obtain a receipt for it.

/s/ FRANK KNOX

_________________________

"Merchant mariners who served at sea in World War II were denied recognition as veterans for 43 years. The major reason was a combination of misinformation, misunderstandings, and outright lies. One of the most influential of these was the argument that merchant seamen had nothing to with guns or firing at enemy vessels or planes." (Capital "BS")

Sgtleo

Sgt Leo
I had threee older brothers who served in WWII'

The oldest of them was with the 4th Marine Division at Saipan an Tinnian. The youngest of the three was on a a subchaser. The Baddest ***, was an armed guard on convoy duty,,,,he had no mercy on anyone,,,I guess being expected to be torpedoed at any moment,in freezing north atlantic water, would screw up yer mind.

YankeeSgt:-

Guy I grew up with made a trip on a "Merchie" as a member of an Armed Guard unit to Murmansk Russia and he said he was forever grateful it was his one and only trip. The cold,rough seas as well as the threat of U-boats he said would give anybody religion if they didn't have it!!

Worse part of it was they - the Armed Guards - didn't get any bonus!!

Sgtleo

Yup.....after he mellowed out in his sixties, he would talk about it.

In ROUGH sea, he said he could look 360 degrees an be at the bottom of a wave an surronded by water was 30 or so feet higher than the ship.

Then at the top of the wave the screws/props would get out of the water an spin up an vibrate so bad, he thought the ship would break apart.

I am glad I went Infantry.

Merchant seamen were truly the unsung heroes of the war and paid a high price. The total for the U.S. Merchant Marine varies between 5600 and 9500, depending on the source. I believe Great Britain lost nearly (if not over) 10,000 merchant sailors during the course of the war.

http://www.usmm.org/casualty.html

It's really hard to try to imagine the dangers those men faced. If they weren't killed outright in submarine, air, or surface attacks, they faced the prospect of either:

drowning in the sinking of the ship

freezing to death in the frigid waters of the North Atlantic

dying of thirst and exposure in open lifeboats

not being found in the vastness of the open sea

being ravaged by sharks

Add to those the always present danger of the sea itself, with sudden and vicious storms, hurricanes, or typhoons and it should be clear to anyone that merchant seaman deserve (and have earned) the respect and status as veterans.

quote:

Originally posted by USNVet940:
Merchant seamen were truly the unsung heroes of the war and paid a high price. The total for the U.S. Merchant Marine varies between 5600 and 9500, depending on the source. I believe Great Britain lost nearly (if not over) 10,000 merchant sailors during the course of the war.

http://www.usmm.org/casualty.html

It's really hard to try to imagine the dangers those men faced. If they weren't killed outright in submarine, air, or surface attacks, they faced the prospect of either:

drowning in the sinking of the ship

freezing to death in the frigid waters of the North Atlantic

dying of thirst and exposure in open lifeboats

not being found in the vastness of the open sea

being ravaged by sharks

Add to those the always present danger of the sea itself, with sudden and vicious storms, hurricanes, or typhoons and it should be clear to anyone that merchant seaman deserve (and have earned) the respect and status as veterans.

USNvet, I totally concure with your position. So just where does the Merchant Marine service stand vis a vis US military? Military.com? Military.com has a catagory for marines, army, navy, AF, CG butI don't see a catagory for MM on mil.com. Are MM topics welcomed/addressed somewhere else on mil.com?

quote:

Are MM topics welcomed/addressed somewhere else on mil.com?

As far as I'm concerned, any thread on the MM is more than welcome on the History boards. As to there being a board dedicated solely to discussions of the MM, there isn't one that I've seen and I think that is something that admin would have to address. I don't have the administrative rights as mod to create new forums.

quote:

So just where does the Merchant Marine service stand vis a vis US military?

My reading on the MM during the war, I must admit, has been limited. It's my understanding (and I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong) that the MM fell under the operational control of the Navy for convoying and administrative control was shared between the War Shipping Administration and the Maritime Commission. Whether or not such a system would be put in place today, I couldn't say.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: USNVet940,

Thanks
How about we just let this brew a bit, see what else gets posted. I'd be interested to learn what I could about the MSTS troop ships I sailed on to and from Germany, So I might start a topic somewhere, History board, you say? ($hit! forgot I was on the history board.DUH

quote:

The U.S. Merchant Marine of World War II was an Armed Force and the vessels were Armed Warships.

Not quite. UNIFORMED maybe. The vessels were not warships.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: nekron99,

U.S. Maritime Service or U.S. Merchant Marine?
The United States Maritime Service was by law the official training organization for the U.S. Merchant Marine. It trained men for the U.S. Merchant Marine and U.S. Army Transport Service to transport supplies and personnel in the largest fleet of freighters, tankers, and transports in history to bases all over the world for U.S. and Allied forces. Men at the fronts depended on this important service for bombs, gasoline, shells, ammunition, food, guns, vehicles, planes, medicine, and other materials for warfare. When training ended the person was "released from active duty" in the Maritime Service and went to sea in the Merchant Marine. Today the Maritime Service exists only in the Maritime Academies.
U.S. Maritime Service history
http://www.usmm.org/usms.html

The Liberty ships were cargo ships built in the United States during World War II. Eighteen American shipyards built 2,751 Liberties between 1941 and 1945, easily the largest number of ships produced to a single design.

The merchant ships carried a Navy Armed Guard contingent of one officer and about twenty men to operate and maintain the guns, although they were often short of that complement. The gun crews were filled out with civilian crewmembers, sometimes including ship's officers.

Initial armament was by guns drawn from the stored weapons from World War I. Emphasis was on the stern weapon, often a 4 inch 50 caliber gun, supplemented with a lighter caliber gun in the bow and machine guns of .30 and .50 caliber distributed about the ship, such as on the flying bridge. When more suitable weapons became available as weapon production ramped up, these lighter weapons were replaced with heavier and more modern equipment.
Armament was typically one 5 inch 38 caliber gun on the stern; one 3 inch 50 caliber gun in the point of the bow; a 20 mm Oerlikon machine gun on each of the four corners of the flying bridge (the open top deck of the midship house); and two 20 mm Oerlikon guns, one on the end of each wing of the after steering station atop the poop house. All of the guns were mounted in circular gun tubs about waist high protected with plastic armor. This gave a total armament of one 5 inch, one 3 inch and six 20 mm weapons.

Plastic armor was composed of a bituminous (blacktop) matrix impregnated with stones. It was invented by the British to replace expensive and scarce steel armor. Plastic armor was also used to protect the bridge and radio room of merchant ships. Troop Transport Liberties, which were fitted out to carry 500 troops plus their combat equipment, retained the 5 inch 38 caliber gun on the stern and the 3 inch 50 caliber gun on the bow. The 20 mm Oerlikon guns at the after steering station were replaced by two 3 inch 50 caliber guns. Two 20 mm Oerlikon guns were added on the foredeck and two more on the afterdeck, all in raised gun tubs and intended to supplement the four 20 mm guns on the flying bridge. This provided a total armament of one 5 inch, three 3 inch, and eight 20 mm guns. There was no fire control equipment; engagement was over open sights under the direction of the Armed Guard Officer whose action station was on the bridge.