In 1942, America was so nearly broke that it was in jeopardy of losing the war. Not since the American revolution had so many sacrificed so much of their financial welfare to keep the war effort going.

Had it not been for the War Bonds program success, America might well have been forced to seek a settlement to conclude involvement in the war. Heros and Hollywood alike joined hands to go on campaign tours to raise money so that production of war materials could continue. Failure would have meant disaster!

After Pearl Harbor, the Japs had very little chance of winning at all against us. 1/4 of their trade was in the hands of the Allies and they lost it all right then and there, plus there was the fact that the US had all the resources it would ever need within its own borders.

Absolutely absurd. Check any record of wartime production by Japan and the US you want.

The US produced 5 times as many displaced tonnage of warships in 1942 than Japan and 25 times more merchant tonnage. Throughout the entire war, Japan built exactly ONE large aircraft carrier. The US built 29. Japan built 15 smaller carriers. The US built 141.

In 1941 and 1942, the US built 67,269 military aircraft, more than Japan built during the entire war.

While there was hard fighting, it really was a foregone conclusion that the US possessed a far greater capacity for victory than Japan. This was not lost on the Japanese high command. Admiral Yamamoto suggested that he would only be able to 'run wild for six months' after Pearl Harbor [before the US made victory impossible].

He was short by two days. The battle of Midway (June 4-5 1942) made victory inevitable.

Sullivan013

Thrust
The post is half correct. The U.S. Was broke. BUT was in no danger of losing the war. The Navy and air corp knew all they had to do was sink every Japanese merchant ship & tanker on the water and japan was S.O.L.. Steel, Rubber & oil are three things japan does not have domesticly. Not then,not now. I knew a lot of old timers that said, if franklin Rooseveldt hadn't threatened Japan with an embargo unless they got out of China & Korea there wouldn't have been a war. The orential mind set of saving face was insulted when he did that. About half of the General's & Admirals knew Japan couldn't win But they had to save face.

From my reading, you could nearly split Japan's pro-war and anti-war officer factions right down the lines of Army and Navy. That they cooperated so badly during war should have shown how shortsighted the Army was when it pushed for war with America. The reality of Japan's dependence on the sea didn't really matter in the end, since the former chief of staff of its premier army (the Kwantung Army) was none other than Tojo.

The only chance Japan had against us was that we put even more effort into the European war, which probably would have meant defeat of Russia. In that case, we're all screwed anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by sullivan013:
Absolutely absurd. Check any record of wartime production by Japan and the US you want.

The US produced 5 times as many displaced tonnage of warships in 1942 than Japan and 25 times more merchant tonnage. Throughout the entire war, Japan built exactly ONE large aircraft carrier. The US built 29. Japan built 15 smaller carriers. The US built 141.

In 1941 and 1942, the US built 67,269 military aircraft, more than Japan built during the entire war.

While there was hard fighting, it really was a foregone conclusion that the US possessed a far greater capacity for victory than Japan. This was not lost on the Japanese high command. Admiral Yamamoto suggested that he would only be able to 'run wild for six months' after Pearl Harbor [before the US made victory impossible].

He was short by two days. The battle of Midway (June 4-5 1942) made victory inevitable.

Sullivan013

I'm not suggesting that our productive capacity wasn't overwhelming. I'm simply making the point that America very nearly reached the point where that capacity could not have been geared up. That's where the War Bonds effort saved the day.

I believe that "fate" was on our side because of the good fortune we experienced. Our carriers were out to sea on December 7 and their survival was the only thing that prevented the probable Japanese invasion of the west coast of continental America. We broke the Japanese codes early. We prevailed on Guadalcanal (by a hair) allowing US to finish Henderson Field before the Japanese could. These and other things kept us from the necessity of seeking withdrawal from conflict with the Japanese.

Ever heard of deficit spending? The war would have funded, no matter what.
In my opinion, War Bonds were a chance to make everybody feel a part of the effort. Strictly a show.

Yamamoto would have vehemently opposed a landing on continental USA, to the point of resigning. In fact he stated such an invasion would fail because behind every rock and tree would be an American with a rifle.(or words to that effect.)

Hawaii though, was doable.

I believe your Idea of a probable invasion of the west coast to be wrong.
Invading the west coast was never part of any plan in the early war.
The Japanese war plan was to take areas in the western pacific to control resources.
The attack at Pearl was a smack in the face and warning to the US to not interfear. They never expected we would fight. They never expected to get their butt's kicked.

Shockey

quote:

Originally posted by gumbydammit:
Ever heard of deficit spending? The war would have funded, no matter what.
In my opinion, War Bonds were a chance to make everybody feel a part of the effort. Strictly a show.

Yamamoto would have vehemently opposed a landing on continental USA, to the point of resigning. In fact he stated such an invasion would fail because behind every rock and tree would be an American with a rifle.(or words to that effect.)

Hawaii though, was doable.

Gumby

Try these number's. In 1945 the U.S. Had a revenue income of $46,000.000.000.00,The F.Y.B. Fiscal year Budget was $99,000.000.000.00, I think thats BILLION. The WAR cost $ 88,000,000,000.00 per year. The war cost $250,000,000.00 per day. Or $175,000.00 per minute. The average household income in 1945 was $1,700.00 per year. The F.Y.B. for 1946,Post war was $56,000,000,000,.00. The seventh war Bond tour ( IWO JIMA FLAG RAISERS ) brought in $26.3 Billion. $26,300,000,000,.00 almost half of the years budget. WE WERE into deficit spending. I wiil agree that Japan probably could have taken Hawaii in December of 41 .I don't think that would have been the case in January of 42. Just my thought's. No hard evidense

The Numbers are from

Flags of our Fathers, 7th war bond Drive

RE: Japan invasion of Hawaii

Not in December, 1941. That operation was never contemplated as an invasion, but an air strike only. No other outcome was even considered due to strategic issues at the time (Occupation of Indochina, US forces in the Phillipines, etc.).

Once those operations were completed and the Phillipines neutralized, an invasion was possible. Think of the Midway operational and invasion fleets, but directed at Hawaii in the absence of the US carriers instead.

Even so, it would have been relatively easy. We simply could not have opposed the landing with any operational fleet in that time, and Hawaii was even less defendable than the Phillipines.

We are on the same page as far as the Invasion time table is consernd. I was stating that I beleive that the only time Japan could have sucsessfully invaded Hawaii was in Dec.1941. Within one month of the attack the U.S. had inundated the islands with troops and equipment as were available.

Not nearly as fast as that. My Dad earned his Purple Heart on Dec 7 at Hickum Field. He said everyone was wild with speculations for weeks afterwards. He spent most of his recovery time manning various beaches on Oahu.

After it was clear the Japanese were NOT coming, they were put to work building camps for the troops that were going to be deployed there, but it was several months before they started to arrive. Even then, it was only a trickle until just before he left for OCS in late Spring of 1942.

quote:

Originally posted by sullivan013:
Not nearly as fast as that. My Dad earned his Purple Heart on Dec 7 at Hickum Field. He said everyone was wild with speculations for weeks afterwards. He spent most of his recovery time manning various beaches on Oahu.

After it was clear the Japanese were NOT coming, they were put to work building camps for the troops that were going to be deployed there, but it was several months before they started to arrive. Even then, it was only a trickle until just before he left for OCS in late Spring of 1942.

I wont argue with a survivor. I know the navy put everything they could in the Pacific as soon as they could. The military forces didn't have a lot of troops to send to Pearl Harbor or Hawaii.

quote:

Originally posted by ordmate:
Thrust
The post is half correct. The U.S. Was broke. BUT was in no danger of losing the war. The Navy and air corp knew all they had to do was sink every Japanese merchant ship & tanker on the water and japan was S.O.L.. Steel, Rubber & oil are three things japan does not have domesticly. Not then,not now. I knew a lot of old timers that said, if franklin Rooseveldt hadn't threatened Japan with an embargo unless they got out of China & Korea there wouldn't have been a war. The orential mind set of saving face was insulted when he did that. About half of the General's & Admirals knew Japan couldn't win But they had to save face.

583 and Ordmate:--Good points/Post.

America was in a deep $ pit because they actually were still feeling the stings,punches, and blows of the Great Depression of the 1930's. The War Bonds, and the people that bought them, certainly helped the U.S. Government to pay the Companies that built/produced the rifles/aircraft/ships/food.

Japan, being made up of several islands, made a huge mistake. They started a war without raw materiels needed by a 20th century military force. They had no friends in the area, and nobody to help them when things started going "downhill". Britain (U.K.) on the other hand, was an Island Nation with enemies in the airways and the waters around them, but they had friends in faraway places who were willing to help them out. A large part of that help came by way of people buying War Bonds, and donating their own personal goods to the War effort.

WW2 is a fascinating part of History. From "Rosie the Riveter" to kids collecting aluminum scrap, to the Western Union Telegram delivery boy, to the women who volunteered at USO centers... many folks trying to do something so that the War was won by the Allies, and the men in Uniform could return.

If Russia would have lost, we'd have all been screwed. Germany could have forced capitulation on England and held out in Europe long enough to fight WW3 with us.

Thrust_0311:--- The Thread Topic was about America being "fiscally challenged", and War Bonds.

BTW-- There were also War Stamps for folks who could not afford to buy War Bonds. I agree with something the radio commentator Michael Savage said years ago now...(has it been thhaaatt long since Sep.11 2001 ??)-- Start selling War Bonds for the Global War On Terror, and the troops would have the funding and ammo and equipment they need!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: swremwin,

Who said that they actually want to win? No politician has the sense to reintroduce war bonds. To even suggest that they should shows blind faith in a failure of a system.

I have been reading the past posts on this thread and I agree with what the Numbers member said about war time production. In a previous post I said : japan had no,OIL,Rubber or steel, Domisticly. No country can Maintain a war effort with out raw materials. When they did not pull out of China,Korea & manchuria the U.S. stopped exporting steel. Japan has no oil wells and at the time no rubber to manufactuer tires. Japan did and still does depend on Imports for it's livley hood. Thats a long and round about way of saying,If you don't have it ,you can't build it.

Swremwin: Thought I'd throw that in before some former,Uncle Sams Misguided child ,Swabbey, airdale or shallowwater sailor did. You dished it out,I hope you can take it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ordmate,

quote:

Originally posted by sullivan013:
Not nearly as fast as that. My Dad earned his Purple Heart on Dec 7 at Hickum Field. He said everyone was wild with speculations for weeks afterwards. He spent most of his recovery time manning various beaches on Oahu.

After it was clear the Japanese were NOT coming, they were put to work building camps for the troops that were going to be deployed there, but it was several months before they started to arrive. Even then, it was only a trickle until just before he left for OCS in late Spring of 1942.

An invasion of Hawaii was never planned by the Japanese, but....a third wave attack was. The decision to NOT go forward with the third wave was because our carriers could not be accounted for. Assuming our carriers had been in Pearl and sunk or damaged, and a third wave had succeeded in destroying our dry docks at Pearl, the west coast would have been vulnerable. Naturally, any/all opinions expressed here about what might have followed are merely speculation; but, it's a fact that consideration was given to a neogotiated settlement with Japan had our naval forces not survived to fight another day.

quote:

Originally posted by 19022583:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sullivan013:
Not nearly as fast as that. My Dad earned his Purple Heart on Dec 7 at Hickum Field. He said everyone was wild with speculations for weeks afterwards. He spent most of his recovery time manning various beaches on Oahu.

After it was clear the Japanese were NOT coming, they were put to work building camps for the troops that were going to be deployed there, but it was several months before they started to arrive. Even then, it was only a trickle until just before he left for OCS in late Spring of 1942.

An invasion of Hawaii was never planned by the Japanese, but....a third wave attack was. The decision to NOT go forward with the third wave was because our carriers could not be accounted for. Assuming our carriers had been in Pearl and sunk or damaged, and a third wave had succeeded in destroying our dry docks at Pearl, the west coast would have been vulnerable. Naturally, any/all opinions expressed here about what might have followed are merely speculation; but, it's a fact that consideration was given to a neogotiated settlement with Japan had our naval forces not survived to fight another day.

While true that Japan had few natural resources of it's own, that fact was the reason why they sought them from the countries they occupied, i.e. China and SE Asia.