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So is LORAN "Really" going away this time around ?

LORAN has been shutting down for the last 20 years but somehow it always manages to stay afloat when it is on the chopping block.

Any insider know if they are going to pass of LORAN operations as a service contract to the civilian sector ?

I know Booz Allen Hamilton, was awarded a contract a couple of years ago to do consulting on the plausibility of handing off LORAN operations to a Pv't contractor .

Anybody have any info ?
 
Posts: 5 | Registered: Sat 28 February 2009Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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I just got this in my e mail from Google Coast Guard Loran Alerts.
Sometimes it has good stuff and just as I was reading mail toady here is some latest info.
http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1368

You can find me also in the Leukemia and Cancer in Loran posts .
I served 8 years 1969/1977 ET1 USCG and most was Loran in the Pacific and back in the states before going to group stations and small boats from the old 95 footer Cape Straight,82 Point Heron and down until I got out after Opsail 1976 in New York Harbor.
Took out the old 44 and cruised all night meeting the all girls sailing crew from England.
The Tall ships and celebration was amazing.

Hope this helps.
Don
 
Posts: 25 | Registered: Mon 02 January 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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quote:
I know Booz Allen Hamilton, was awarded a contract a couple of years ago to do consulting on the plausibility of handing off LORAN operations to a Pv't contractor .


Handing Loran off to civilian contractors was first raised in 1980s and part of the A-76 efforts.

I guess if they solved the Command and Control issues from that go round, they could contract out the maintenance and stuff. A carekeeper might be retained as COTR to ensure the contractors are doing what they are suppose to do.

Who knows. There might be an employment opportunity for some retired Coasties.
 
Posts: 6410 | Registered: Thu 21 September 2000Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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"Employment Opportunities" is what I am hoping for, lets see how it plays it out .

Smile
 
Posts: 5 | Registered: Sat 28 February 2009Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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If they hand off LORAN to civilians I'd send them my resume when my current enlistment is up. LORAN has been the only thing I've done in the CG that I've enjoyed.
 
Posts: 8 | Registered: Fri 06 February 2009Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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The legislation to close LORAN is only proposed. It is not a done deal. Don't anyone get too excited just yet. Cool
 
Posts: 3266 | Registered: Sat 12 January 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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Legislature to "close" Loran was met with opposition for many years.

Cooler heads will prevail so the U.S. doesn't put all it's eggs in the GPS basket.

Legislature allowing "Contracting out" the services is more likely. So far, DOD, to my knowledge, has gone solo GPS. But remember, Loran has never been recognized publically by the DOD. Some of the historical documents, found at http://www.loran-history.info paint a very different story of the military use of Loran in the early days, much more than the average Coast Guard Loranimal knew. We don't know if the same scenario is happening today.

We shall see if the military mission of Loran remains. Of course the AF has their own Loran system (Loran-D), if it's still funded, so they might meet the needs of DOD. I don't know if Loran-D was deployed in GW I or GW II as GPS gardnered all the press. I do know in GW I, many units were outfitted with Loran-C receivers as there was a Loran-C chain operating in the region.
 
Posts: 6410 | Registered: Thu 21 September 2000Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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And the rest of the story....

Advice to the LORSTA's is to keep operating as normal until told otherwise.


quote:
NextGov - TECHNOLOGY and the BUSINESS OF GOVERNMENT <http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/>

TECHNOLOGY AND THE BUSINESS OF GOVERNMENT

Opposition to Obama's call to cancel navigational system growing

By Bob Brewin <mailto:bbrewin@nextgov.com> 05/12/09

Congress and the geospatial industry are voicing opposition to President Obama's proposal to kill a decades-old navigational system that could serve as a backup to the popular and prevalent GPS.

Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, planned to question Homeland Security Department Secretary Janet Napolitano about the administration's plan to cancel the enhanced Long Range Aid to Navigation system (eLoran) at a hearing of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs scheduled for Tuesday afternoon.

"At a time when the future reliability of the GPS network is being questioned, it seems odd that [DHS] is obstructing, rather than leading, the effort to fund and deploy this critical [eLoran] redundant system," Collins planned to say in a statement at the hearing.

The Coast Guard operates 24 Loran stations nationwide, known as Loran C, to help operators of ships and planes determine their location. Nineteen stations have been upgraded to eLoran, which broadcasts a data channel to improve accuracy, signal availability and integrity of geospatial information. The system boosts position accuracy to between 8 feet and 65 feet, with availability measured at 99.9 percent and integrity at 99.99 percent, according to the International Loran Association.

A report completed in January by an independent assessment team chaired by Bradford Parkinson, considered the father of GPS, and not publicly released, concluded that eLoran was the only cost-effective back up to satellite-based GPS and it would deter threats to U.S. national and economic security by jamming signals.

The report <http://www.govexec.com/nextgov/0509/IAT_Final.pdf> , prepared for the Institute for Defense Analyses, a federally funded research firm, and obtained by Nextgov, said top officials from the Defense Department, DHS and the Office of Management and Budget concluded after briefings in 2006 and 2007 that eLoran was "the only alternative [to GPS] meeting the technical requirements at a reasonable cost."

Collins, who read the report, planned to ask Napolitano to "explain the administration's insistence on eliminating a program so inextricably linked with ensuring the future safety of mariners, aviators and our nation's critical infrastructure," said Collins' press aide, Kevin Kelley.

The team that prepared the report "unanimously recommends the U.S. government complete the eLoran upgrade and commit to eLoran as the national backup for 20 years." (Author's emphases.)

Despite the report's stern recommendation, the Obama administration did not fund <http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2010/assets/trs.pdf> the Loran system in its proposed fiscal 2010 budget, which will serve as the basis for the upgraded eLoran system.

Jeffrey Shane, a partner in the Washington office of Hogan & Hartson law firm who commissioned the eLoran report while serving as the Transportation Department's under secretary for policy during the Bush administration, said he hoped the Obama administration will see the value of eLoran as the most cost effective back up to GPS.

The endorsement of eLoran by a team headed by Parkinson, a professor emeritus at Stanford University who spearheaded development of GPS in 1973 while serving in the Air Force, should be influential because Parkinson was skeptical that eLoran could serve as a backup to GPS.

When the team started work on the report, Parkinson "told me it would come out negative," for continuing eLoran, Shane said.

He said the fiscal 2010 budget did not zero out funding for eLoran, but only for Loran C, which could mean the Obama administration will endorse eLoran as the GPS backup, once it completes an assessment of alternatives. Richard Langley, a GPS specialist at the University of New Brunswick, agreed with Shane and said canceling the Loran C does not rule out developing GPS.

If Loran C is canceled and the administration intends opts for eLoran, then it will "cost 10 times more" to develop eLoran if those stations are shut down, said Robert Lilley, secretary of the International Loran Association.

He said the White House made the decision to kill Loran C without all the facts in hand, including the Institute for Defense Analyses' report. Once the administration considers the report, it will most likely endorse eLoran as a GPS backup system.

In his budget, Obama said the government would save $190 million during five years if it shut down Loran C. But that calculation did not include the cost of decommissioning the system, which was highlighted in the report, said Zachariah Conover, president of CrossRate Technology in Windham, Maine, which manufactures a combined eLoran-GPS receiver.

The cost to shut down Loran C would cost $146 million, about the same that it would cost to upgrade Loran C stations to eLoran, making the modernization program a wash, according to the report.

Conover said it was "unconscionable" that the administration would effectively cancel eLoran without first releasing the report, which highlights the susceptibility of the high-frequency, low-power GPS signals to jamming and consequent threats.

In early 2007, the Navy conducted a GPS jamming test <http://mg.gpsworld.com/gpsmg/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=418420> in San Diego. During the three-hour test the Coast Guard's automated identification system that monitored marine traffic in the harbor was inadvertently jammed and shut down, according to the report.

Cell phone carriers use GPS timing signals to control their networks, and the test jammed two cellular base stations and the operation of 150 others was degraded. A first-responder pager network was knocked out by the test, too, the report said.

But, if eLoran, which uses low-frequency, high-power signals had been in operation, "all of the adversely impacted users . . . would have operated seamlessly through this incident," the report noted.

Comment on this article in the Forum <http://www.nextgov.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4449#post4449>


© 2009 BY NATIONAL JOURNAL GROUP, INC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
 
Posts: 3266 | Registered: Sat 12 January 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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John,

Being told to operate as normal must be stressed to those with the purse strings as well.
 
Posts: 6410 | Registered: Thu 21 September 2000Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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Joe,

This happens more often than you think. In this case it was made public in the early stages prior to being set in stone. It's not to say they won't close down the road...just too early at this moment to stop normal functions.

John
 
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John,

I remember the Loran-A shutdown talk. I also remember building 40 wiring harnesses for the 1 MW amplifier only to have two withdrawn from stock. One unit failed to replace the wires as needed so G-EEE contracted SUPCEN to build 40, under the assumption that it's happening to one, it must be happening to the other 1 MW amplifiers.

That has remained etched in my mind for the past 30+ years and helped form my opinions of CG maintenance.
 
Posts: 6410 | Registered: Thu 21 September 2000Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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Joe,

This is more than talk, it is proposed legislation. One of the PM's for it was concerned about some recent events in the field and I told the person I'd mention it (here) that it was only proposed legislation and still being discussed at this point.

John
 
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I am all for saving the taxpayers money. However the only way the Obama administration will be able to save a significant amount of money would be if he fired all the coasties currently working in the Loran field. As it is all those personnel will just be reassigned to other jobs, where they will be just another extra hand in an already bloated service.

The taxpayers will be doubly screwed if he has high priced civilians take over the job that the coast guard was doing.

I agree, however, that overall the LORAN is a cost effective back up to GPS.

So Mr. President please do not close LORAN. Plans to make your own GPS jammer are freely available on the internet, and America needs a backup.

Instead lets save some money by firing all the civilians that are currently employed by various branches of the military. When I was coming up guard duties were manned by junior enlisted. Now they are manned by civilians. Some of these civilians are of dubious national origin. Go figure.
 
Posts: 9 | Registered: Sun 10 April 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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John,

I know it's proposed. The attitude with proposals can be assumptions they are or will be approved so why should we spend money on the upkeep since it's history. Proposed history is not real history.

Couple that with the GPS jamming report, the report that GPS will be reduced to less than 95 percent capability in 2010 if the AF doesn't get any funding to do upgrades. Not only will the United States be without GPS at the stated accuracies, but without a viable backup. The AF upgrades have cost overruns exceeding the costs to fund and upgrade the existing Loran Stations.

The CG doesn't want the Loran Mission. It's been forced down their throat everytime they try to dump it.

The person sitting at the top of the program at the palace was told, when he was a SN going through ET school almost 30 years ago, that Loran was ancient history and would be gone very soon by an ETN ... I forgot what grade the ETN was ...
We all know how many ETNs there are in the CG ... and we know how many Loran Stations are still in the CG mission.

Why did the DOD and DHS (CG) hide the report identifying Loran as the best backup for GPS? It took alot of FOIAs to get that report.

Why would the CG put this nation "at risk"? The digital battleground, like the exercise in San Diego, is only the begining. The nation is at risk if we lose timing for the various networks. Damm, I should be addressing this to my Congress critters.

Anyways, I've always said cooler heads will prevail. That doesn't mean the CG will still have the Loran Mission, but, Loran will survive.

I'm sure there are retired Loranimals who maintain contact lists of other Loranimals to shift from Blue to civilian in a heartbeat. There are beltway bandits who will submit bids to do the job and do the mass contacts for job applications.
 
Posts: 6410 | Registered: Thu 21 September 2000Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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quote:
Originally posted by JoeJester:
John,

I know it's proposed. The attitude with proposals can be assumptions they are or will be approved so why should we spend money on the upkeep since it's history. Proposed history is not real history.


That is what prompted the concern in HQ with one of the PM's (who knows you BTW). A couple of field reports found their way up here indicating prompting that exact concern.
 
Posts: 3266 | Registered: Sat 12 January 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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quote:
Originally posted by TVCJohn:
quote:
Originally posted by JoeJester:
John,

I know it's proposed. The attitude with proposals can be assumptions they are or will be approved so why should we spend money on the upkeep since it's history. Proposed history is not real history.


That is what prompted the concern in HQ with one of the PM's (who knows you BTW). A couple of field reports found their way up here prompting that exact concern.
 
Posts: 3266 | Registered: Sat 12 January 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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John,

No doubt. Those issues concerned me ever since the mid 70s, as it didn't matter what system or platform that was "proposed to close."

Tell the PM I said hi.

I found the following interesting in the IAD report ....

Implementation Considerations: Since World War II, or for the entire history of Loran (Loran-A, Loran-C, and now eLoran), USCG has been the developer and operator of Loran in the US (and until 1995 throughout the world). Since 1997, Congress has directed funds to FAA for eLoran upgrade. In 2003, with the creation of DHS, USCG moved from DOT to DHS, taking oversight of eLoran out of one department (DOT) and moving into the interagency.

Funding any program or system through the interagency process is difficult. For example, GPS is a ubiquitous military and civil “utility.” The current process is to assign GPS to an executive agent, the best being USAF in DoD, to assured continued funding of improvements and reliable O&M. The same is probably needed for eLoran. The choices based on funding history are USCG in DHS or FAA in DOT; a subsequent draft assessment by the IAT showed that the combination of FAA for upgrade and USCG for O&M, though awkward, appeared to be workable. However, if not a combination, leaving all in USCG would be next best, followed by FAA. Almost no other agency has the necessary background or experience to provide what is first and foremost a “safety of life” navigation system, which also provide full interagency position, navigation, time, and frequency backup for critical applications based on GPS.

Current Status – October 2008: Policy decision has been made (March 2007) and announced in February 2008. Announcement was accompanied by implementation plan—move eLoran from USCG to DHS NPPD (National Communications System) effective with start of FY2009. In July 2008, DHS and USCG appropriations committee language indicated Congress did not approve the implementation plan and directed that eLoran remain in USCG. Since this was appropriations language, it is effectively a “one year” disapproval of the implementation plan. However, one should probably consider this a bellwether indication—Congress believes that eLoran should remain in USCG.


From the DHS Press Release titled: STATEMENT FROM DHS PRESS SECRETARY LAURA KEEHHNER ON THE ADOPTION OF NATIONAL BACKUP SYSTEM TO GPS dated Feb 7, 2009 which was in that same report.

quote:
... originally developed for civil marine use in coastal areas.


I know they got that line from the NAVCEN website, however, Loran-C was not originally developed for civil marine use in coastal area. The first operational Loran-C chain was the Med Sea Chain. It's use was not for the civilians in the Mediterranean Countries. It was placed there for the Department of Defense usage. I had addressed the false statement once before, but I guess no one in NAVCEN believes it. Too bad the documentation exists on the web, if they decided to search for it.

Loran has it's roots in military applications and was classified during WWII. Loran-C's military usage still keeps popping up. I wouldn't doubt it if there were Loran-C receivers in the sandbox. Read the 1991 International Loran Associations Convention minutes. You will see how Loran was used in Gulf War I.
 
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