Well Surface Folks:
The Russians are back. Where are the CGs and the rest, docked at St Thomas.?
While we have dithered about wearing Lipstick, the Russians have deployed aircraft, the old Bear, and a sortie of ships.
The Defense Tech shop has an article dealing with the specifics, all very technical and nice.
Just to bring this into perspective. The GULF IS OURS, not some Johny come lately Russian excuse for a fleet.
Where is the Fourth Fleet?
That is the burning and I hope not an oil rig, question.
end

Try again. The Gulf is not ours, any more than the Indian Ocean belongs to India. By international law we have 12 miles from the coast. That still leaves a lot of the Gulf for everybody else.

We don't like it when the Russians bring their fleet into the Gulf but they don't like it when we send ships into the Black Sea (think our response in Georgia).

Former YN1(SS)

You have a point there YN1, but I don't particularly care to have Russian surface units that close to us. The Russians are those kind of people that you give them an inch and they take 50 yards, regardless if 49 of it is yours or not.The next little wanna be dictator is heading down a path to war and he's using the Russians as his ace in the hole. This HAS to be nipped in the bud, as a certain TV deputy sheriff used to say. Putin is getting just a bit too big for his pants also.
I would not trust the man who had been a high KGB official. He's two faced and like alot of these one bit a$$es. Force and show of strength is the only thing they understand.

I agree that we need a show of force on this. I see the cold war escalating again. Russia has recovered somewhat from their failed attempt at socialism (they were never communists which is where everybody shares everything equally) and now are ready to re-expand their empire. Georgia was just the first stepping off point. Notice that they still haven't left Georgia completely and probably never will.

I think this exercise is a tit-for-tat response to our sending war ships to Georgia. It's also another example of Hugo Chávez thumbing his nose at the U.S. Since Fidel is no longer shaking his fist at the U.S., Chávez thinks that he should take over being the socialist, anti-U.S. idiot of the western hemisphere.

Former YN1(SS)

Chavez is putting his money on the US being absorbed in the election rather paying attention to what's happening in the Gulf. He's also betting that an Obama administration will be soft like Clinton was and he'll play hard a$$ with us and get soft responses.
He'll try to capitalize on Obama's youth and inexperience at foreign policy like Kruschev did to JFK.
The Russians have recovered somewhat from their failed Communistic society and I do NOT trust one little bit. Yes,it will be the start of a new Cold War and Russia once again WILL be the chief villian in it.

ALL
This is the AP Interview posted Sep 11.
Note that the Sukov 30 aircraft are also there, some 8 aircraft.
ABOARD THE USS KEARSARGE (AP) _ The commander of the U.S. Navy's Fourth Fleet said Thursday his forces were keeping an eye on Russian Blackjack bombers that have landed in Venezuela for training exercises — but he dismissed the deployment as a major challenge to the United States.

The arrival of Russian Tu-160 bombers was the first such deployment to the Western Hemisphere since the Cold War and seemed certain to further strain Russia's relations with the United States. It came after the U.S. sent warships to deliver aid to U.S.-allied Georgia after its war last month with Russia.


But Rear Adm. Joseph Kernan said the Fourth Fleet had no immediate plans to change its operations because of the bombers.

"In my mind if the Russians flew those aircraft down to this region because of a threat from the U.S., then I think they wasted gas," Kernan told The Associated Press in an interview aboard the USS Kearsarge, which was off the coast of Haiti helping with hurricane relief efforts.

Still, he said the Fourth Fleet would be watchful.


"It does make us take a second look because it's something new flying in here," Kernan said. "We're always going to be careful about who's out there and what could potentially be a threat."

The Russian Air Force said Thursday that the bombers carried no live weapons on their flight to Venezuela — nuclear or otherwise. Air Force spokesman Vladimir Drik said the planes would return to Russia next Monday after conducting a series of flights over the Caribbean from a Venezuelan base.

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin appeared to indicate that the deployment was a response to the U.S. Navy's presence in the Black Sea.

"God forbid from engaging in any kind of controversy in the American continent; this is considered the 'holiest of the holy,'" Putin said during a meeting with Western political scholars at his Black Sea residence in Sochi. "And they drive ships with weapons to a place just 10 kilometers from where we're at? Is this normal? Is this an equitable move?"

Russia is also sending a naval squadron and long-range patrol planes to Venezuela in November for a joint military exercise in the Caribbean. Kernan said he did not know what the Fourth Fleet's strategic plans would be that month, but that it would avoid any interference with the exercises.

"Clearly, navies are always interested in keeping track of where everyone else is," he said. "Will we have someone around to monitor those? I don't know at this point. But we're certainly not going to try to get in the middle of it and disrupt it."

Both Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva have expressed concern about the U.S. Navy's decision early this year to re-establish the Fourth Fleet to direct naval forces in the Caribbean and Latin America. The Fourth Fleet was active during World War II but was dissolved in 1950.

Chavez has called it a threat to the region, while Silva has expressed concerned about Fourth Fleet ships patrolling waters near newly discovered oil reserves off Brazil.

On Thursday, Chavez called the Russian planes' presence a "warning" to Washington.

Although the bombers were only scheduled to be in the area for patrols lasting several days, Chavez nevertheless said they would help Venezuela keep an eye on the Fourth Fleet, and "if it lifts a finger we'll know."

Kernan dismissed the concerns of both Chavez and Silva, saying the fleet's priorities are anti-drug operations and humanitarian missions. The fleet will enter another country's coastal waters or rivers only as part of joint missions or training exercises, and it has no intention of checking out Brazil's oil reserves, he added.

"They got it wrong," he said. "We have no aspirations for anyone's oil. If we want to get oil from Venezuela we'll negotiate and buy it from them, and with Brazil it's the same way."

Kernan said relations between the U.S. and Brazilian navies are smooth and he hopes for increased cooperation, including joint operations.

"What you hear from Brazil in the press sometimes is not what we hear from the leadership," he said
Folks, My post probably upset some. Well, maybe we need to raise our view to the South. Chavez has been raising the ante for some time now, and the USA Oval Office continues to wait and see. That is just exactly what happened in so d... many times I cannot count the events.
Eternal Vigilance, North East South and West.
If we want to be Free as USA Citizens, we D... well better get our heads up and look around.
end

What exactly do you think we should do, send missles flying at them? I have personally seen those Bear bombers fly over my ship on numerous ocassions, and while it is a truly awesome looking plane, it did nothing to strike fear in my heart for what its capabilities are.

It's a big, lumbering buffoon of a plane that cannot escape radar at 250+ miles out, and it is escorted by one US fighter in the front, two on each wing, with one more bringing up his substancial rear. Even had one Bear driver decide to open his bomb bay doors as he flew 2000 feet above the flight deck. No one wet their pants over it.

I personally don't understand your panic over this, as it's a free ocean 12 miles out and so long as they abide by that, the Russians aren't breaking any laws. They got their feelings hurt when the USS McFaul dropped the hook in "their" Black Sea. The Black Sea is no more theirs than the Gulf is ours.

Look up the McFaul on Google and see why Russia hit the panic button; she's a beautiful warship that happened to bring some 55 tons of relief for those innocent civilians the Russians haphazardly bombed.

This is not the start of a "new" cold war. Russia may have a few ships left which look brutal on paper, but look closely at where their missles are. You'll note most of them are right there on deck, just begging to explode in their launchers. We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

The day we become scared of Venezuala will be a sad day indeed. Russia is just trying to not look so stupid for invading Georgia; nothing more. Putin is just flapping his wings in the chicken yard and now he has Chavez to throw him some scratch. This isn't as bad as you think it is.

Russia is resurging, but they have a LOT to repair. Their fleet is still in shambles, with more of it tied to a pier and sinking than at sea.

While this website focuses mostly on the nuke side, it's indicitive of the whole of the Russian fleet
http://www.bellona.org/subjects/Russian_Military_Fleet

Of course we need to watch them... NEVER trust a Ruskie. Putin wants to be a Czar, and he's well on his way. I believe that he wants to reform the Russian Empire, so do many of the old Warsaw Pact, and former SSRs. That's why we see Ukraine tyring like heck to get into NATO and the EU. They are next on the list of "those that need to be brought to heel".

Old Bosun, I know you pride your self on the knowledge you have of Naval Affairs and history. But NO, we are not overracting. Yes, Chavez is rattling his TOY saber to see who is listening. He's of NO real consquence, but do not believe the Russians have left everything to rust and fall apart.
Putin and his boys are NOT that stupid, but he knows that they do not yet have the power necessary to pose and real challenge against or our allies. Its one of those school yard power struggles where the bullies are flexing their muscles to see who will stand up against them. Its kid's games 14 years old, that's what they're acting like.

quote:

Originally posted by TennSlim:
Well Surface Folks:
The Russians are back. Where are the CGs and the rest, docked at St Thomas.?
While we have dithered about wearing Lipstick, the Russians have deployed aircraft, the old Bear, and a sortie of ships.
The Defense Tech shop has an article dealing with the specifics, all very technical and nice.
Just to bring this into perspective. The GULF IS OURS, not some Johny come lately Russian excuse for a fleet.
Where is the Fourth Fleet?
That is the burning and I hope not an oil rig, question.
end

Just exactly who the HELL are you to make such insulting comments? "Docked at St. Thomas"? "Dithered about wearing lipstick"?

You know, it's fine if you want to play the role of "old fart armchair admiral who thinks he's smarter than the Navy" but you need to watch your words.

quote:

Originally posted by JPope:
Old Bosun, I know you pride your self on the knowledge you have of Naval Affairs and history. But NO, we are not overracting. Yes, Chavez is rattling his TOY saber to see who is listening. He's of NO real consquence, but do not believe the Russians have left everything to rust and fall apart.
Putin and his boys are NOT that stupid, but he knows that they do not yet have the power necessary to pose and real challenge against or our allies. Its one of those school yard power struggles where the bullies are flexing their muscles to see who will stand up against them. Its kid's games 14 years old, that's what they're acting like.

Actually, I think OldBosun has it right - this is nothing more than a show of...well, "force" isn't quite the right word. Let's call it "show of capability", just like a few months ago when they sent that Bear D out to say "hi" to our Carrier strike group.

Putin is just trying desperately to get the world to think that Russia is relevant again.

Stupid question from a Non Navy guy. Do the Russians have AirCraft Carriers and are there any pictures of them if there are?? I Know I know I could google it But just what kind of Navy does these meatheads have?? And are any of those Cold War Nuke Subs still out there cruising around??

quote:

Originally posted by venom366:
Stupid question from a Non Navy guy. Do the Russians have AirCraft Carriers and are there any pictures of them if there are?? I Know I know I could google it But just what kind of Navy does these meatheads have?? And are any of those Cold War Nuke Subs still out there cruising around??

Yes they still have subs - nukes from the Cold War era. They have one jump-jet carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov.

quote:

Putin is just trying desperately to get the world to think that Russia is relevant again.

I must agree on that one S Dawg, you are totally correct.

Mr. Pope, thank you for your kind words, although I don't mean to imply I have this vast knowledge of stuff that is far superior to anyone else's. I just call 'em as I see 'em. I am learning to respect your thoughts more and more, however, and look forward your responses.

I think everyone.... well, almost everyone, would agree that Russia is sighting in a bent rifle here. My intent was only to show that the Russian navy has the international right to conduct certain ops in international waters. We do it all the time. They flipped because we ran to Georgia's aid.

Throughout the entire history of the United States we have always come to the defense of nations under seige from big bullies. Russia thumped their 90 lb neighbor and we did what we always do. Most of the world (except France possibly) knows and expects this action. Seems like we brought out the big boys in WWII and helped Russia defeat a certain nasty dictator once also. Too bad they seem to have forgotten where America's priorities lie -- which is with their f-r-i-e-n-d-s.

That's what I was trying to say.

quote:

Originally posted by venom366:
Stupid question from a Non Navy guy. Do the Russians have AirCraft Carriers and are there any pictures of them if there are?? I Know I know I could google it But just what kind of Navy does these meatheads have?? And are any of those Cold War Nuke Subs still out there cruising around??

Well, the Russian Navy ain't what he used to be, but is still a fairly formadable force. According to Jane's their navy is comprised of four fleets: Baltic, Black Sea (via the base n Ukraine), Pacific, and North Atlantic. Their Northern Fleet tends to get the lion's share of cash, but the entire fleet's operational status is one of steady upgrading. As was mentioned earlier, the Russian Navy is certainly not one of old, rusted hulks.

Their SSBN fleet has shrunk considerably, with an estimated 30 or so of the big boomers left in service. Like the US Navy, the state of the world does not demand a massive SSBN force any longer. But the Akula II is one mean, capable SOB of a boat and they have been planning on replacing the older Victor-class subs with this mother of a boat.

Much of their new construction has been focused on the smaller Neustrashimy class frigates and Sovremennt II class destroyer; both of which are for shore defense mainly. The Admiral Kuznetsov is a jump-jet carrier that "was" state of the art when it was conceived right before the USSR imploded. It has about as much firepower as the British jump-jet carriers, but could not hope to come close to matching a Nimitz-class carrier.

Russia has been trying to remove the focus of shore protection ships to blue water ships, but it is a slow process for them. Their blue water strength is but a shadow of the late Cold War period, and most of what they currently possess has that lousy design where their missile batteries are all above deck. The significance of this design flaw? Well, one solid hit with a 5" gun could wreak some serious havoc, as they have no magazines: each launcher has a missile in it.

A big issue with the Russian Navy is pay. The US realized long ago that if you want to keep a good hand aboard ship, you're gonna have to pay them good wages. Russian admirals were only making about US$150 per month up to about 2001. This is another area the Russians have been slow to correct, and most of the military pay scale in Russia is pretty pathetic still.

Finding Russian Navy stuff is sketchy at best, since unlike the US, they don't tell the press about every new launch and commission. But it seems to be unanimously agreed that Russia does not have the capability to stand toe to toe with the US Navy presently. Taking a decade or so off from maintenance and new construction will do that as we all know. But Russia is flush with cash right now, and will be into the foreseeable future.

Who knows when they can match up with the US again, but it is certain that right now they do not. Hope this helps...

The Admiral Kuznetsov


The Akula II SSN (NOT SSBN as I posted earlier!)

[/IMG]

A Sovremenny class DD

estroyer_Osmotritelny.jpg"> [/IMG]

Anyone feel free to add to the photo album!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OldBosun63,

Well, THAT didn't work...

I'll try something else....

quote:

Originally posted by OldBosun63:
Well, THAT didn't work...

I'll try something else....

Dont worry about it, I copied the link in the Properties and pasted to my Browser. Funny looking thing, what no Catapults?? How does a Jump Carrier Work, this is the first Ive even heard of such a thing.

By understanding the general idea of Vertical Take-Off and Landing (VTOL), you can see how these ships function. Unlike the massive Nimitz-class carriers, which need to keep a certain amount of wind blowing over the flight deck to launch and recover her aircraft, VTOL craft generally don't require wind under their wings to take off and land

These aircraft simply divert engine thrust to lift them vertically, then angle thrust into the rear exhaust as the plane gathers speed. This design allows VTOL craft to do some amazing manuevers in flight.

Where the ski jump works is when the planes have a heavy bomb load they can gather adequate speed by taking off as planes do normally, then hit the jump and be launched airborne similar to a catapult, albeit with much less force.

These jump-jet carriers do not have catapults or arresting gear, as when their planes land, they come in like a helicopter. VTOL aircraft are superb in their roles, but their design does not allow them to be anywhere near as fast as the planes of a US carrier. Great Britain perfected this technology in the Falklands War of 1982 with their highly successful Harrier aircraft. It certainly seems as though their jump jet carriers won that war for them, as Argentina had nothing even remotely comparable and suffered the consequences for it.

But due to the much smaller number of aircraft carried, as well as the ship's lack of speed (compared to US carriers), these ships definitely have their place, but they were never meant to go head to head against the US supercarriers.