I ETSd 35 years ago this Summer...the past few nights, I awoke from dreams where I was back on the tank gunnery ranges at Graf, just "out of the blue". The end result is several questions that generated. First some background...my very first visit to Graf was in Jul-Aug 1972, as a Loader. Although I do not recall that actual Tank Tables (never actually learned them), I do recall a majority of Ranges we used then...from the Range 6 Complex where we zeroed our weapons and ran thru some zeroing excercises. We moved on to a range for maingun on "moving targets"; then, on to a machinegun-only range at Range 39. Began putting everything "together", so-to-speak, at Range 45; same at Range 42; then on to TCQC at the famous for many, many years, Range 80 (there was a range next to 80 for re-verifying zero immediately ahead of day-run at 80). My second visit to Graf (Jul-Aug '73), was as TC of the same tank as previous year...this year, the same ranges, except, Range 80 was closed this year for re-building, re-furbisment, etc...so, we utilized Range 42 as our qualification range. My next/last Graf visit, I actually didn't do gunnery tables, as I would be ETSing prior to our unit's qualifying and finishing up; I was relieved of my TC and Section Lead duties just ahead of movement to Graf in early-Aug '74. I got to do CQ every other night in our Company-area, with the in-between nights, selling beer in the Messhall for the Company Fund. Question(s) generated are: What range have they used for TCQC since then? Did they ever move back to Range 80 for TCQC? Things have changed obviously, with adding Platoon/Company-sized live-fire...the assumption is that individual tanks still "qualify", what range is used today for TCQC (or, do they even call it TCQC anymore)? Of course one definite plus is not needing to use searchlight tanks for night runs.

Sorry for the length....


Mark

Cheers to Tankers...past, present, & future.

I have those kind of dreams all the time. We set the record on range 42 by getting 2 rounds on every maingun target within 10 seconds on both day and night run (I was gunner). We, of course, had high expectations on range 80, but on the second hard target, the loader - a company clerk OJTing in the position - threw in a Heat-TPT....

You can imagine the cold chill that went down my spine when I saw that thing ricochet off into the sky, but I thought it might be a dud, and launched the second one, that also hit the front slope, and also went straight up . . .!

"Clear all weapons, you are now disqualified....!"

I've relived parts of that nightmare in hundreds of dreams. Sometimes, its Russian T-62s coming through the wire, and I'm bouncing TPT off of them... OR we just don't have any ammo, and they are cutting us to pieces like Swiss cheese, and we're bailing out and running like in the movie The Battle of the Bulge... getting cut down in the snow - -

Gawd, I'd love to have that one chance over again - -

The irony is that we were allowed to go down range after everyone else was done, to expend our ammo, and still scored high enough to earn "Distinguished", but it didn't count, of course - -

Because of watching PAtton today, and talking about this, I'll probably go through it again tonight... Maybe get killed for good this time - -

Imagine that...I'm watching Patton now...right after Tora! Tora! Tora!

Even though 'ole George C. Scott didn't have Patton's high-pitched voice, that rough, gravelly voice of Scott sure made that movie, didn't it? Take care and enjoy....

Mark

Yup - not too many actors have come through that could do Patton much justice - the right guy at the right time - -

'ghost:

Your "TPT" story abouve, jogged things a little. A couple of weeks ago, I was viewing a thing on youtube on M60A1/M60A3 tanks...it had a TC giving a fire command, "Gunner, SABOT, Tank"...the Loader promptly loaded HEAT. Don't know if they spliced tape together or what, but it was definitely HEAT (& not TPT...or SABOT). But then, Joe Public usually wouldn't know the difference.

Mark

No tankers recall the Grafenwoehr Tank ranges, gunnery, or their own trips to the Graf?? Current qualification ranges? WOW!

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by WMark:
'ghost:

Your "TPT" story abouve, jogged things a little. A couple of weeks ago, I was viewing a thing on youtube on M60A1/M60A3 tanks...it had a TC giving a fire command, "Gunner, SABOT, Tank"...the Loader promptly loaded HEAT. Don't know if they spliced tape together or what, but it was definitely HEAT (& not TPT...or SABOT). But then, Joe Public usually wouldn't know the difference.

Mark

Goink!! But the HEAT round would probably do the job, if the range was short enough it didn't go into the dirt first because of the slower MV and more curved trajectory. Ya know, I never got to shoot a SABOT round. They didn't trust us with them, just HEAT, TPT, and HEP. Yet that's all the Canadians and Brits ever used - straight SABOT on all tank targets and HEP on bunkers/trucks/Anti-tank guns...

Yeah 'ghost, I never did either...but...did have a chance to! My first Graf, I was a Loader (Jul/Aug '72); a day or 2 after qualifying on Range 80, our unit took 1 or 2 tanks whose main guns were due for replacement, and allowed those who wanted to, fire for familiarization, several SABOT on Range 81 (I believe...and it was right next to Range 80, if memory serves). I'm one of quite a few who chose not to...wish I had now. I don't believe we were given the opportunity on my next trip to Graf. Like you, just TPT, HEP, and HEAT. Didn't the Brits call their version of HEP, HESH (High-Explosive Squash Head)? I still remember my last engagement on Range 42 (our Qual Range for TCQC '73)...it was a 50-cal engagement...I guess I remember because as I was cleaning the M85 the next morning, the very tip of the firing pin had broken off. I could see that it was worn almost flat...so, I have no clue how many 50-cal engagements was completed on that qual-run after it broke. It must not have been much broken off, as the weapon still fired and seemed to be OK...until, as I said, took it apart for cleaning. And it was fine during a cleaning before the qual-day run.

Mark

We had a guy put a burst of either COAX or .50 into a herd of boar on one of the practice ranges - miss-identified 'em for the dark silhouette targets . One of the big boars, wounded and madder than hell, came up through the tank park chasing everybody it could see up onto the vehicles, hookin' treads and snorting and squealing at everyone!! Kinda reminded me of the Brahmas I'd seen in rodeos, but sure didn't want a ride on that one!!

I can't remember the Range numbers any more either, I was in Europe from '82-'86. But qualification at Graf and gunnery at Baumholder were always high points of the year. Except when the crew ahead of you on the night run ID'd the wrong range fan marker and shot WAY out of the range fan. Bahnmeister definitely didn't approve and we lost about 3 hours of the night (and in August there wasn't all that much night to lose).
What was really fun was platoon and company battle runs even if they were so choreographed that it took forever just to move a klick or so down teh range.

Just watched a 60A3 USMC crew, must have been the one you guys seen, loader loaded wrong ammo. I had that happen at Graf, I was a gunner at the time selecte HEP and fired a HEAT rd, everybody and ther bro was up at arms "Freeze that Gun", **** I had Heat selected and ready for the next shot!! Range control laid a guuners quadrant on the tube etc.. Rang 80, fond memories now,, My first TC job, 19 yo Buck Sgt, Distinguished crew. Have lost all my crew qual patches. A 2/33d 3d AD
stationed on the "Rock" Feb 73 - JUL 76. That jarhead vid they didn't even fire on the move, fuc a static shot, Roger ??

I left Ayers "The Rock" Feb of 73!! HHC/CSC 3/33d Pickles just down the street to the North of you!! Our barracks was next to the Rod and Gun Club going out towards the North gate...

This should ring a bell:







The main gun on an M-60 was not stabilized, so shooting accurately on the move was pretty much impossible, because the sights were bouncing up and down too much, unless you were on a paved road or moving very slowly. Still, it was very possible to get two hits in under ten seconds from seeing the target. Our tank did it consistantly, but the dozer blade of the front helped, because it made the tank extremely stable, and the gun climbed a whole lot less - -

As for the wrong round being loaded, I described that above... Even now, after 36 years, it still makes my teeth grate to think about it, but I don't blame or hate the loader for it. He was a company clerk pulled into a job to fill a slot. He did his best every time. Oddly, he never made a mistake until that moment, but he had a brain dump fueled by adrenaline and threw in the wrong round by feel instead of looking. TPT and HEAT are shaped exactly alike. It's just that one is blue and won't explode and the other is black and will...

So he slammed in the wrong color, and I bounced it about a mile in the air off the front slope of the hard target, and did the same thing with the second one about 5 seconds later - What a sick feeling to have two rounds hit in under 10 seconds, and have that get you kicked off the range - - I hadn't felt that low since watching Kennedy take a bullet in the head - -

This message has been edited. Last edited by: greywolfghost,

I was with B Co. 2/33d, 3d AD, I turned in a M60
and signed for a M60A1 (RISE), in-late 74 early 75,
it was equipped with STABO. When I left JUL 76, a believe at that time all Tanks in Co had stabo, we fired
qualification on Range 80,(1976) on cycle gunnery had main gun engagements on the move. Not all main gun. We even did some gunnery at Hoenfels with or sister German unit. Maybe USMC did not have?? I see 2/33d is disbanded?? Of course the Abrams was the XM-1, the 60A2 lol
thanks Greywolfghost

Greywolfghost, Thanks for the pictures, man does that bring back memories.. Our barracks were right off the parade field. You were there when I was, Cpt Pope was my Co. Commander, 1SG Lewis was the first shirt, Dide you know PSG Wheeler Again thanks for putting the foto's up.

I worked with Bravo Company 3/33d. The CO was 1st Lt Gant (Soon to make Capt, I assume). 1st Sgt of HHC 3/33 was SFC Swaringen. I was in the Scout Platoon before that, which put me on the opposite end of the world from the 2/32d. About the only contact we had was laying in softball tournaments in the summer - but I didn't get to know people from there. We were pretty much in opposite rotations to the Border or Graf or Hohensfeld, so when we were in Garrison, they were often moving out - -

I herad Pickles got deactivated right after I left, and you in the 32 was all that was left there until Desert Storm... Then after that, the whole Post got shut down, and the 2/32d Flag went to Frieburg or one of the others - -

Ayers is derelict now --

If you want to get your guts wrenched around, cut and paste this into your browser and watch it - -

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3881476716448790138

When I was in the Air Force, I got a chance to go back there in '89. It seemed a lot the same as back in the '70s except they had a helcopter Cav Unit it there with Kiowas and Hueys sitting around where the "mini-tank" range had been, to the north of all the barracks - -

It's all gone now -- -

Yea we were pretty opposite on rotations, 2d 33d, will have to check the link. I was trying to explain to a guy recently about the 114's, badd ass scout vehicle. My secondary was 11D, primary of course 11E. My kids will like to see the pic's you put up, I have had 2 house fires so a lot went up have only a few pics. Thanks

Me in the lead track for 3/33d Scout Platoon 1971 Fulda Gap- --

114s were gutless and poorly designed, at least for the 20MM. .50 Cals were okay on them, but the 283 Chevy gas engine and little 4 speed auto transmission absolutely sucked for power and reliability. I un-azzed them for an M-60A1 as fast as I could. the little rubber tracks on them broke all the time too - - SUXED!!

That German 20MM was a peebringer, though!!

You nailed that one, "Gut Wrenching" Thanks
"Scouts Out"

Roger that - buttoning up!!

If the problems you speak of with the 114 were corrected would it have been acceptable? I was not crewed on one but thought the size made for a great Scout vehicle.I know the 20mm could raise a lot of he** but have also heard by many who used it that it had it's problems too.