I am delighted to work with you. Please send me your complete mailing address, email, and your age. I will connect you with a lodge in the Chelsea Michigan area. If you are not in that area, I can locate a lodge near your current residence, or duty station.

Welcome to Masonry,
Charles E. Martin

I believe I have stated that I am not a Freemason and that my information comes from what I have read and persons I have spoken with. Many of those persons and sources are Masonic, such as Lightfoot's Manual of the Lodge for Texas by Jewel P. Lightfoot, Past Grand Master.

Perhaps, if my understanding of symbolism varies from yours it is because symbolism means different things to different individuals, to include individual Freemasons as was claimed by the guide in the United Grand Lodge of England.

quote:

Originally posted by FleetLiberal:
No the reason is not because that symbolism has different meaning to different people. The symbolism means something different to the Masonic community (which I belong) and the Anti Masonic community (to which you belong.) And you should qualify your posts that it is your opinion, that you really do not know.
Bryan

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:
I believe I have stated that I am not a Freemason and that my information comes from what I have read and persons I have spoken with. Many of those persons and sources are Masonic, such as Lightfoot's Manual of the Lodge for Texas by Jewel P. Lightfoot, Past Grand Master.

Perhaps, if my understanding of symbolism varies from yours it is because symbolism means different things to different individuals, to include individual Freemasons as was claimed by the guide in the United Grand Lodge of England.

Ah, your assumptions betray your ignorance. I hold no membership in any anti-Masonic organization. Most of what I know of Freemasonry has come from Freemasons who, in spite of your ignorant comment to the contrary, hold a diversity of opinions on many things to include the history and some of the symbolism used in Freemasonry. The tesselation of the Lodge is a good example of this diversity. In some Lodges the tesselation is blue in white while in others it is black and white. In some one will find the tesselation displayed checkerboard fashion from east to west while in others it is turned 45 degrees so that there is an alignment of dark and light squares from east to west. Some Lodges do not use a ten pointed star as the blazing star however Lightfoot says the following in his commentary, "A number of rituals show a five-pointed star as the representative of the blazing star. It is believed that the blazing star should be a ten-pointed star, as shown in the illustration, page 27 of the manual. It was one of the geometrical symbols of Pythagoras. He divided the great circle of the solar system into ten sections of 36 degrees each, by employing ten figures of the 47th. Problem of Euclid, and the keystone, as illustrated on the following page." On the next page is a diagram of the 47th. Problem of Euclid repeated ten times in circular fashion much like the Rose window of a cathedral. It is also demonstrated that the Masonic Apron can be arrainged to represent the 47th problem of Euclid. In each case the resulting ten pointed star results in two pentagrams, one 'right side up' and the other 'inverted'.

quote:

Originally posted by FleetLiberal:
Calling me ignorant is not the way to debate a post. If you do not like my post then debate it. If you call me ignorant again you'll be gone forever.
Bryan

quote:

Ah, your assumptions betray your ignorance. I hold no membership in any anti-Masonic organization. Most of what I know of Freemasonry has come from Freemasons who, in spite of your ignorant comment to the contrary, hold a diversity of opinions on many things to include the history and some of the symbolism used in Freemasonry.

Ignorance is as ignorance does, your omniscience. When you call someone or something 'anti-Masonic' with no knowledge of the source, that is ignorance.

quote:

Originally posted by FleetLiberal:
The five pointed star belongs to the OES and is not displayed in a Masonic lodge.

Take a look on the wall just above and to the right of the U.S. flag in this Lodge. Yes, the OES is covering the blazing star.

quote:

Originally posted by FleetLiberal: Lightfoot may have once been an authority in Texas (book in 1915, 20 years before he was Grand master), your reading internet stuff that has no NO bearing on what the craft is today,

My edition of Lightfoot's Manual is copyrighted 1934 by the Grand Lodge of Texas, and printed in 1944 by the Department of Printing, Masonic Home and School, Fort Worth, Texas. Does Freemasonry change on a regular and rapid basis?

quote:

Originally posted by FleetLiberal: like I said, you are not a Mason, yet you try to pass yourself off as an authority from some anti-masonic website. That is where I get my opinion that your are an anti-mason. 6 of you 313 posts has something to do with masonic, all but one has anti-masonic bearing. Your logic is wrong, you've never been though any of our ritual, so how would you know the real truth?

I only know what Freemasons themselves have written and said. If that's anti-Masonic, then I guess Freemasonry is anti-Masonic. Perhaps that's what happens if an organization subjects itself to change on a regular and rapid basis. If folks don't keep up with the change, then yesterday's doctrine can become today's heresy.

Kundry

You are in over your head on this one. Recommend you stick with what you know, not what you think you know. There are folks here that have many years at the craft, Fleet is one of them...I am another.

Regards,
dmuhler

quote:

Originally posted by FleetLiberal:

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:

quote:

Originally posted by FleetLiberal:
The five pointed star belongs to the OES and is not displayed in a Masonic lodge.

Take a look on the wall just above and to the right of the U.S. flag in this Lodge. Yes, the OES is covering the blazing star.
tells me that the room is set up for an OES meeting not a Masonic meeting. again a Mason would know this you do not

Oh, was that just a lucky guess on my part about the OES carpet covering the blazing star? It's still a Masonic Lodge room where the 'inverted' pentacle is being displayed isn't it? OES is affiliated with Freemasonry and meets with a Mason present, doesn't it?

"'To conceal their crime, the three assailants buried Master Hiram in a shallow grave'.
The Deacons had covered my prone body with a fine linen sheet. In the gloom of the Lodge the cloth looked either grey or white; I couldn't tell. As I lay, still as death, shrouded in a grave cloth, all I could see was the dim shape of the five-pointed star surrounding the letter G, high above me in the roof of the temple. Another voice spoke from somewhere off to my right.
'Master Masons of Ryburn Lodge, assemble round the grave of our Brother here laid low'." Robert Lomas, Turning the Hiram Key, page 149. "Paul let me go and stood back from me. Over his shoulder I could see a bright five-pointed star glowing brightly on the eastern wall of the Lodge. I gazed, fascinated, at the star, which seemed to hover above the Master's chair, and in the surrounding darkness cast a bright narrow beam of light towards the west." Lomas, page 151. "Let those symbols of morbidity, which the rising of the Morning Star has illuminated for you, help you to reflect on your ineluctable fate and direct your thoughts towards the most valuable of all studies, the knowledge of yourself". Lomas, page 152. Robert Lomas is, obviously, a Master Mason and his books are sold todayin the book store of the Masonic Temple in London. Hey, maybe they're anti-Masonic, ya think?

quote:

Originally posted by FleetLiberal: Lightfoot may have once been an authority in Texas (book in 1915, 20 years before he was Grand master), your reading internet stuff that has no NO bearing on what the craft is today,

My edition of Lightfoot's Manual is copyrighted 1934 by the Grand Lodge of Texas, and printed in 1944 by the Department of Printing, Masonic Home and School, Fort Worth, Texas. Does Freemasonry change on a regular and rapid basis?

Yes it does change, my dates are correct just a typo he was Grand master in 1915 and 20 years later wrote the book,

quote:

Originally posted by FleetLiberal: like I said, you are not a Mason, yet you try to pass yourself off as an authority from some anti-masonic website. That is where I get my opinion that your are an anti-mason. 6 of you 313 posts has something to do with masonic, all but one has anti-masonic bearing. Your logic is wrong, you've never been though any of our ritual, so how would you know the real truth?

I only know what Freemasons themselves have written and said. If that's anti-Masonic, then I guess Freemasonry is anti-Masonic. red herring Perhaps that's what happens if an organization subjects itself to change on a regular and rapid basis. If folks don't keep up with the change, then yesterday's doctrine can become today's heresy.

Again your not a Mason how do you know how we keep up with change

I didn't offer any suggestion on how Freemasons keep up with changes to their teachings. I merely observed that it would appear as though those changes must be, relatively speaking, quite frequent and radical to invalidate a manual written in 1944. I always thought better of Freemasonry, as though it's teachings were a bit more eternal in their significance, but as you like to observe, you're the Freemason, so perhaps the landmarks/teachings are not so immutable afterall. Of course I also recognize that individual Freemasons have differing opinions on various issues. Each Mason is, after all, only a point within a circle, bounded by the pillars of the order. Within any circle there are an infinite number of 'points', especially if the pillars that define the circle are subject to change.

Stop try to project yourself a an authority, because you are not.

I don't claim to be an authority, but I know what I've read from Masonic sources and been told by Freemasons like yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by FleetLiberal:
Kundry,
You have one more chance to retract the ignorance comment, two thing will happen
1) 30 days vacation
2) You will not be allowed to post in this topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:

quote:

Originally posted by FleetLiberal:
Calling me ignorant is not the way to debate a post. If you do not like my post then debate it. If you call me ignorant again you'll be gone forever.
Bryan

quote:

Ah, your assumptions betray your ignorance. I hold no membership in any anti-Masonic organization. Most of what I know of Freemasonry has come from Freemasons who, in spite of your ignorant comment to the contrary, hold a diversity of opinions on many things to include the history and some of the symbolism used in Freemasonry.

Ignorance is as ignorance does, your omniscience. When you call someone or something 'anti-Masonic' with no knowledge of the source, that is ignorance.

Now that's enlightened discussion! If you can't intelligently discuss the issue, prevent others from discussing it.

quote:

Originally posted by dmuhler:
Kundry

You are in over your head on this one. Recommend you stick with what you know, not what you think you know. There are folks here that have many years at the craft, Fleet is one of them...I am another.

Regards,
dmuhler

I know what I've read and been told by Masons and anti-Masons. There's certainly no "getting in over one's head" about that. Why don't you tell us what you've read and been told?

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:
I don't claim to be an authority, but I know what I've read from Masonic sources and been told by Freemasons like yourself.

Kundry: I like the warning under your name that says, "On warning for posting explicit sexual material for 30 days (10 Aug)." That says all I need to know about you. Anyway,
I am a Freemason and proud to be one. I believe that this thread is for Masons, but those allows to say should be respectful. Therefore, If you do not having anything positive to say about our gentle craft, then go somewhere else. Your non-Masonic comments on a forum where Masons meet are not welcome. You might heed the moderator's warning and cease and desist or face the consequences. Hope you are respectful of those who are Masons on this forum if not, you might step on the toes of a moderator on this forum who is a Mason and he will issue you one of those TOS pink slips.
Regretably yours,
/s/
TerryTCT, Past Master
of a Masonic Lodge in the
Northern Masonic Jurisdiction

quote:

Originally posted by TerryTCT:

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:
I don't claim to be an authority, but I know what I've read from Masonic sources and been told by Freemasons like yourself.

I am a Freemason and proud to be one. I don't believe that this thread is for non-Masons. If you do not having anything positive to say about our gentle craft, then go somewhere else. Your non-Masonic comments on a forum where Masons meet are not welcome. You might heed the moderator's warning and cease and desist or face the consequences. Hope you are respectful of those who are Masons on this forum if not, you might step on the toes of a moderator on this forum who is a Mason and he will issue you one of those TOS pink slips.
Regretably yours,
/s/
TerryTCT, Past Master
of a Masonic Lodge in the
Northern Masonic Jurisdiction

Actually, I heretofore regarded Freemasonry in a much more positive light than I now regard it following my discussion of the Craft with some of its self proclaimed members on this forum.

Being that Our Friend Kundry is not an authority
on such matters,could the moderator or the lead moderator please answer my question. Regarding the Holy Flaming Star and Why was it inverted at the Lodge that I was invited to? I am 27 years old and I was with The Order of DeMolay
in my younger years, my mentor was a 33rd Degree Mason from British Guiana, and He would always advice me to seek the truth and live by it. He never told me anything about the "secret" things of the Lodge although he might have hinted at certain things but I was too immature to comprehend them let alone understand. 33 degrees equals 33 vertebrae the coiled snake must rise and pass through all the seven churches "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of GOD" Now is the time to Difine Ourselves we will either become eagles or reptiles angels or demons. The Holy Flaming
Star is what an Angel represents, the inverted star represents the down fall of the initiate. The tenebrous are attracted to the inverted star the members of the white lodge are the Holy flaming Star. Here in the physical I would really like to become a Free-Mason like I always wanted when I was gowing up, but I must be cautious and not involve myself with those who claim to be true members of the lodge and are not. From what I know a Free-Mason represents truth, integrity, love for our neighbour, justice and all that is good. being that I am not a true member of the lodge yet I must sincerely claim ignorance and that is why I AM inquiring about such matter. I would greatly appriciate your answer and time, thank you.

In word and deed

A Friend in need of an answer

Inverential Peace!

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:

quote:

Originally posted by TerryTCT:

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:
I don't claim to be an authority, but I know what I've read from Masonic sources and been told by Freemasons like yourself.

I am a Freemason and proud to be one. I don't believe that this thread is for non-Masons. If you do not having anything positive to say about our gentle craft, then go somewhere else. Your non-Masonic comments on a forum where Masons meet are not welcome. You might heed the moderator's warning and cease and desist or face the consequences. Hope you are respectful of those who are Masons on this forum if not, you might step on the toes of a moderator on this forum who is a Mason and he will issue you one of those TOS pink slips.
Regretably yours,
/s/
TerryTCT, Past Master
of a Masonic Lodge in the
Northern Masonic Jurisdiction

Actually, I heretofore regarded Freemasonry in a much more positive light than I now regard it following my discussion of the Craft with some of its self proclaimed members on this forum.

Greetings and salutations: I modified your last post to make it more suitable for the brethren of the craft who regularly visit this thread. Knowing that you are not a Mason, I would like to introduce you to one of our websites. Hope not only you, but others enjoy the show. Turn up the sound.
Fraternally and Sincerely,
/s/
TerryTCT, Past Master

http://www.tryfreemasonry.com/video.php

quote:

Originally posted by Jedi_Consular:
Being that Our Friend Kundry is not an authority
on such matters,could the moderator or the lead moderator please answer my question. Regarding the Holy Flaming Star and Why was it inverted at the Lodge that I was invited to? I am 27 years old and I was with The Order of DeMolay
in my younger years, my mentor was a 33rd Degree Mason from British Guiana, and He would always advice me to seek the truth and live by it. He never told me anything about the "secret" things of the Lodge although he might have hinted at certain things but I was too immature to comprehend them let alone understand. 33 degrees equals 33 vertebrae the coiled snake must rise and pass through all the seven churches "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of GOD" Now is the time to Difine Ourselves we will either become eagles or reptiles angels or demons. The Holy Flaming
Star is what an Angel represents, the inverted star represents the down fall of the initiate. The tenebrous are attracted to the inverted star the members of the white lodge are the Holy flaming Star. Here in the physical I would really like to become a Free-Mason like I always wanted when I was gowing up, but I must be cautious and not involve myself with those who claim to be true members of the lodge and are not. From what I know a Free-Mason represents truth, integrity, love for our neighbour, justice and all that is good. being that I am not a true member of the lodge yet I must sincerely claim ignorance and that is why I AM inquiring about such matter. I would greatly appriciate your answer and time, thank you.

In word and deed

A Friend in need of an answer

Inverential Peace!

The craft has a long history shrouded in mystery. For most MM it is a fraternal organization that provide fellowship with other like minded men. I do not spend much time delving into the the mysteries of the craft, nor it's controversies and have never claimed to be an "expert". I am sure a brother will step up and answer your questions.

I would also like to take this opportunity to welcome you here. i hope you enjoy the site.

Regards,
Dave Uhler

quote:

Originally posted by dmuhler:

quote:

Originally posted by Jedi_Consular:
Being that Our Friend Kundry is not an authority
on such matters,could the moderator or the lead moderator please answer my question. Regarding the Holy Flaming Star and Why was it inverted at the Lodge that I was invited to? I am 27 years old and I was with The Order of DeMolay
in my younger years, my mentor was a 33rd Degree Mason from British Guiana, and He would always advice me to seek the truth and live by it. He never told me anything about the "secret" things of the Lodge although he might have hinted at certain things but I was too immature to comprehend them let alone understand. 33 degrees equals 33 vertebrae the coiled snake must rise and pass through all the seven churches "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of GOD" Now is the time to Difine Ourselves we will either become eagles or reptiles angels or demons. The Holy Flaming
Star is what an Angel represents, the inverted star represents the down fall of the initiate. The tenebrous are attracted to the inverted star the members of the white lodge are the Holy flaming Star. Here in the physical I would really like to become a Free-Mason like I always wanted when I was gowing up, but I must be cautious and not involve myself with those who claim to be true members of the lodge and are not. From what I know a Free-Mason represents truth, integrity, love for our neighbour, justice and all that is good. being that I am not a true member of the lodge yet I must sincerely claim ignorance and that is why I AM inquiring about such matter. I would greatly appriciate your answer and time, thank you.

In word and deed

A Friend in need of an answer

Inverential Peace!

The craft has a long history shrouded in mystery. For most MM it is a fraternal organization that provide fellowship with other like minded men. I do not spend much time delving into the the mysteries of the craft, nor it's controversies and have never claimed to be an "expert". I am sure a brother will step up and answer your questions.

I would also like to take this opportunity to welcome you here. i hope you enjoy the site.

Regards,
Dave Uhler

It would appear that Dave is either "in over his head" with your question or he just isn't going to answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Jedi_Consular:
Being that Our Friend Kundry is not an authority
on such matters,could the moderator or the lead moderator please answer my question. Regarding the Holy Flaming Star and Why was it inverted at the Lodge that I was invited to? I am 27 years old and I was with The Order of DeMolay
in my younger years, my mentor was a 33rd Degree Mason from British Guiana, and He would always advice me to seek the truth and live by it. He never told me anything about the "secret" things of the Lodge although he might have hinted at certain things but I was too immature to comprehend them let alone understand. 33 degrees equals 33 vertebrae the coiled snake must rise and pass through all the seven churches "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of GOD" Now is the time to Difine Ourselves we will either become eagles or reptiles angels or demons. The Holy Flaming
Star is what an Angel represents, the inverted star represents the down fall of the initiate. The tenebrous are attracted to the inverted star the members of the white lodge are the Holy flaming Star. Here in the physical I would really like to become a Free-Mason like I always wanted when I was gowing up, but I must be cautious and not involve myself with those who claim to be true members of the lodge and are not. From what I know a Free-Mason represents truth, integrity, love for our neighbour, justice and all that is good. being that I am not a true member of the lodge yet I must sincerely claim ignorance and that is why I AM inquiring about such matter. I would greatly appriciate your answer and time, thank you.

In word and deed

A Friend in need of an answer

Inverential Peace!

First of all, what Demolay Bethel did you belong to? and in what state? Secondly, it seems that you have taken your own studies down an Esoteric Path. I commend you on this. As for your question to making sure that you are with real masons, be very very careful. Your heart will tell you the right path to take. Also, as far as the questions that you ask on symbolism. Symbols have many meanings. Just depends on who you listen to. Lastly, unless you know God before you come to a lodge to petition, you will not find salvation with us. Find it for yourself first and then come to us and we will help you navigagte through the earthly life you speak of.

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:

quote:

Originally posted by dmuhler:

quote:

Originally posted by Jedi_Consular:
Being that Our Friend Kundry is not an authority
on such matters,could the moderator or the lead moderator please answer my question. Regarding the Holy Flaming Star and Why was it inverted at the Lodge that I was invited to? I am 27 years old and I was with The Order of DeMolay
in my younger years, my mentor was a 33rd Degree Mason from British Guiana, and He would always advice me to seek the truth and live by it. He never told me anything about the "secret" things of the Lodge although he might have hinted at certain things but I was too immature to comprehend them let alone understand. 33 degrees equals 33 vertebrae the coiled snake must rise and pass through all the seven churches "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of GOD" Now is the time to Difine Ourselves we will either become eagles or reptiles angels or demons. The Holy Flaming
Star is what an Angel represents, the inverted star represents the down fall of the initiate. The tenebrous are attracted to the inverted star the members of the white lodge are the Holy flaming Star. Here in the physical I would really like to become a Free-Mason like I always wanted when I was gowing up, but I must be cautious and not involve myself with those who claim to be true members of the lodge and are not. From what I know a Free-Mason represents truth, integrity, love for our neighbour, justice and all that is good. being that I am not a true member of the lodge yet I must sincerely claim ignorance and that is why I AM inquiring about such matter. I would greatly appriciate your answer and time, thank you.

In word and deed

A Friend in need of an answer

Inverential Peace!

The craft has a long history shrouded in mystery. For most MM it is a fraternal organization that provide fellowship with other like minded men. I do not spend much time delving into the the mysteries of the craft, nor it's controversies and have never claimed to be an "expert". I am sure a brother will step up and answer your questions.

I would also like to take this opportunity to welcome you here. i hope you enjoy the site.

Regards,
Dave Uhler

It would appear that Dave is either "in over his head" with your question or he just isn't going to answer.

No I am not "in over my head". I am a card carrying MM. I never claimed to be an expert at it. I will let some of the experts here answer your questions because I will not.

Inverential Peace!

Thank you for taking the time to comment I truly appriciate it. The DeMolay chapter I was involved with was in Burbank California. To be honest In about six months I AM going to enlist in the Navy and while checking out the Military.com site I was really impressed that there was a topic of discussion regarding The Craft. I feel that My future with Our Military and Becoming a bretheren of the Lodge is looking very bright. but nevertheless "not my will,but thine, be done." Any information on whether I should ask for an application after or before I go to basic training will be greatly appriciated. Thank you to all of you Good gentlemen.

In Spirit and In Truth

Israel Emmanuel El'Shaddai

Inverential Peace!

quote:

Originally posted by dmuhler:

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:
It would appear that Dave is either "in over his head" with your question or he just isn't going to answer.

No I am not "in over my head". I am a card carrying MM. I never claimed to be an expert at it. I will let some of the experts here answer your questions because I will not.

Be that as it may, it would appear your "card" affords you less enlightenment than my books. Of course a person who will not seek enlightenment in his craft is really no better off than a person who can not receive enlightenment.

Less enlightened? Hardly.My brother Albert Pike was a 33rd degree Master Mason, he wrote the book on the esoteric elements of our craft. I have read the book (Morals and Dogma) from cover to cover and can tell you it is a real yawner. My point is that he was no more a Mason, nor higher in rank than me. We were are both Master Masons (3rd degree). Now if you really want a lesson about the esoteric elements of the craft, read books (be selective though, there are a lot of crap books out there) or find someone on this thread that is interested in it. It really has very little to do with speculative masonry.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: <dmuhler>,

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:
Be that as it may, it would appear your "card" affords you less enlightenment than my books. Of course a person who will not seek enlightenment in his craft is really no better off than a person who can not receive enlightenment.

Brethren: A wise 33rd Degree Mason once told me not engage in debate with anti-Masons for their minds are made up and it is a waste to converse with them. The charge of the EA degree addresses this very issue. After some time in the craft, it becomes easy to spot an anti-Mason.
Fraternally,
/s/
TerryTCT, Past Master
of a Masonic Lodge in
the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction

Never claimed to be wise either.

Thanks for the advice.

Dave

Brethren: Remember the West Gate!
Fraternally,
/s/
TerryTCT, Past Master
Indiana Freemason

I hardly consider Pike a "yawner", but I guess interests may be a matter of personal preference. In his commentary on operative and speculative Masonry, Lightfoot offers the following observations, "The Philosophical Doctrines of Freemasonry are scarcely less important, although they are less generally understood than either of the preceeding classes. The object of these philosophical doctrines is very different from that of either the moral or religious, for the moral and religious doctrines of the Order are intended to make men virtious, while its philosophical doctrines are designed to make them zealous Masons. He who knows nothing of the philosphy of Freemasonry will be apt to become lukewarm and indifferent, but he who devotes himself to its comtemplation will feel an ever increasing ardor in its study."..."It brings us into close relation to the profound thought of the ancient world, and makes us familiar with every subject of mental science that lies within the grasp of the human intellect. So that, in conclusion, we find that the moral, relgious and philosophical doctrines of Freemasonry, respectively, relate to the social, the eternal, and the intellectual progress of man." Jewel P. Lightfoot, italics are the author's.

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:
I hardly consider Pike a "yawner", but I guess interests may be a matter of personal preference. In his commentary on operative and speculative Masonry, Lightfoot offers the following observations, "The Philosophical Doctrines of Freemasonry are scarcely less important, although they are less generally understood than either of the preceeding classes. The object of these philosophical doctrines is very different from that of either the moral or religious, for the moral and religious doctrines of the Order are intended to make men virtious, while its philosophical doctrines are designed to make them zealous Masons. He who knows nothing of the philosphy of Freemasonry will be apt to become lukewarm and indifferent, but he who devotes himself to its comtemplation will feel an ever increasing ardor in its study."..."It brings us into close relation to the profound thought of the ancient world, and makes us familiar with every subject of mental science that lies within the grasp of the human intellect. So that, in conclusion, we find that the moral, relgious and philosophical doctrines of Freemasonry, respectively, relate to the social, the eternal, and the intellectual progress of man." Jewel P. Lightfoot, italics are the author's.

Mr. Kundry: Before you modify your post, I wanted to capture it in final form. For a non-Mason, you have really been doing some research. Why is that? This is simply amazing. Are you interested in our gentle craft or not? If not, why waste your time doing research on our fraternity? If so, what is your intended purpose of posting your research on this forum? I await your answer.

Knowingly and unknowingly, Freemasonry has preserved some very ancient knowledge in my opinion. How old is that knowledge? I believe it to goes back to some of the earliest human history. Of course it wasn't called Freemasonry then, but that's what Freemasonry has preserved and tried to pass on, genrally in allegorical or symbolic form. This knowledge is not simply operative masonry, but the philosophy of sacred geometry, philosophy and astronomy practiced by folks like the Pythagoreans and their predecessors before being passed on to the operative masons by folks like Vitruvious Pollo and the Comacine Masons.

Is it Satanic? No, though some like to apply that label to discourage others who have a dualistic world view from studying Freemasonry. Often those who apply the Satanic epithet believe themselves to be the repository of all authorized knowledge and that any knowledge beyond the confines of their sect is forbidden.

So why am I not a Freemason? Well, if I were, I couldn't openly discuss many aspects of Freemasonry as I like to do in order to learn more. Some Freemasons, like Robert Lomas, claim that they have been told by their Lodges that the only aspect of Freemasonry they are not at liberty to discuss or publish openly are the means of recognition. Different Masons have different levels of openess when it comes to discussing their Craft with someone who is not a Mason. Different Masons also seem to have different reasons for their involvement in Freemasonry. Fellowship seems to be one commonly cited interest and while that may be as valid as any, I'm more interested in the 'mysteries' (I think philosophy is a better word) of Freemasonry.

Why the secrecy in Freemasonry? I believe the answer to this question is largely historical though there are still places in the world today where free philosophical thinking is discouraged by powerful institutions. I believe that historically, Freemasonry, because of its bias toward free intellectual inquiry, has been the target of powerful institutions that have seen free intellectual inquiry as a threat, sometimes even a Satanic threat, to their self proclaimed legal or divine right to rule. In these societies, Freemasons and other free thinkers have had to practice secrecy in order to survive. In the modern United States I'm not so worried about the necessity of secrecy. Since this is a military forum, how many of us have seen information that was classified although it was readily available from the local newspaper? Now I may be wrong about the usefulness of secrecy to modern Freemasonry, but my bias is towards learning things rather than protecting what I've learned from others.

Another point for secrecy is that Freemasonry inherited it from its philosophical predicessors, the ancient mystery religions. To throw out the secrecy might jeopardize some of the very truths that Freemasonry has tried to preserve.

I know its frequently said that Freemasonry is not a religion, yet Lightfoot uses the word religion to refer to the teachings of Freemasonry. In fairness to Lightfoot he takes pains to point out the Freemasonry is not a sect of religion. In my opinion the word philosophy is probably better than religion in its application to Freemasonry. Of course this is one of the objections the sectarians have to Freemasonry. By its very nature it does not confine itself to any particular sect of religion. Of course to the sectarians, one either confines oneself to their sect or one is aligned with Satan, hence the Satanic epithet as applied to Freemasonry.

quote:

Originally posted by Kundry:
Knowingly and unknowingly, Freemasonry has preserved some very ancient knowledge in my opinion.

So why am I not a Freemason? Well, if I were, I couldn't openly discuss many aspects of Freemasonry as I like to do in order to learn more.

Different Masons also seem to have different reasons for their involvement in Freemasonry. Fellowship seems to be one commonly cited interest and while that may be as valid as any, I'm more interested in the 'mysteries' (I think philosophy is a better word) of Freemasonry.

I believe that historically, Freemasonry, because of its bias toward free intellectual inquiry, has been the target of powerful institutions that have seen free intellectual inquiry as a threat, sometimes even a Satanic threat, to their self proclaimed legal or divine right to rule. In these societies, Freemasons and other free thinkers have had to practice secrecy in order to survive.

I know its frequently said that Freemasonry is not a religion, yet Lightfoot uses the word religion to refer to the teachings of Freemasonry. In fairness to Lightfoot he takes pains to point out the Freemasonry is not a sect of religion. In my opinion the word philosophy is probably better than religion in its application to Freemasonry. Of course this is one of the objections the sectarians have to Freemasonry. By its very nature it does not confine itself to any particular sect of religion. Of course to the sectarians, one either confines oneself to their sect or one is aligned with Satan, hence the Satanic epithet as applied to Freemasonry.

Mr. Kundry: Since you are not a Mason, why do you keep bringing up the subject? In my inquiries with non-Masons, they ask questions with the intent on joining our fraternity. For those who don't, many fall into the category of anti-Mason. Regardless, the purpose of this response is not an exhaustive defense of Freemasonry, because none is required. Rather, it is to explain the goals of the organization within the context of recent statements by non-Masons. Indeed, the institution of Freemasonry is not above criticism simply because it is a human institution and like all such institutions, imperfect and open to improvement. Continue to ask us questions if you wish, but more importantly, continue your examination of our fraternity. We certainly have nothing to hide and are justifiably proud of our ancient heritage. I would ask one favor, though, please do not knowingly misrepresent our fraternity. This is not only a disservice to the fraternity, but to society as a whole and goes against the concept that religious beliefs can serve to elevate the cause of mankind. Freemasonry is a unique institution, generating a deep loyalty among its members and an equally great misunderstanding among non-members. We realize that it may be difficult for those with strong religious and moral convictions to believe that a group of men meeting behind closed doors could be doing anything good. And yet, that is precisely the work we are pursuing. Good work, based on the teachings of the Holy Bible, that takes good men and makes them better men, husbands, fathers, sons and brothers. Incredible, isn’t it---that there is still an organization dedicated to the encouragement of religious, family and civic values? And yet, this is exactly what we have been doing since the middle ages when we were a fraternity of operative stone workers with a heritage dating back to biblical times based on a solid foundation of a belief in the same God who created all of us. Tolerance is one of the major underlying principles of Freemasonry. Freemasonry teaches its followers tolerance even of its assailants. The standard Masonic response to detractors has historically been to ignore critics and turn the other cheek to those who speak ill of the craft, preferring to let them wallow in their own ignorance. When we deal with anti-Masons we are astonished and perplexed at the level of hatred directed toward us supposedly in the name of God. This willful fraud does not serve God or man constructively, but instead reinforces the powers of evil; against which mankind must continually struggle. Using the name of God as a justification for a so-called holy mission against the “evils” of Freemasonry is probably one of the best definitions of the word “blasphemy”. Each and every comment about the evils of Freemasonry works against God’s holy teachings, because all Masons hold God in the highest reverence and trust Him above all else. We have no other hidden agenda, no treasures, no idols and no pagan rituals. What goes on in our lodge rooms are only labors designed to improve the moral character and lives of our members---nothing else. Within our fraternity, no one person can speak for Freemasonry. Certainly our Grand Master can speak with authority on organizational matters within his jurisdiction, but no Mason can speak for another Mason or Masonry as a whole when it comes to the meaning of our religious teachings. This is because we lead each man as an individual to the Holy Scriptures, whatever his beliefs in a Supreme Being, and ask that he lead his life by the teachings he finds in those pages as he finds them there. We trust that he WILL find them and employ them through diligent prayer and application in his daily life. We do not allow prostylization in our lodge rooms, preferring instead to let each brother cleave to the faith of his choice and practice it to the best of his ability. It is important for non-Masons to know that Freemasonry does not teach Salvation by works. Rather, it teaches that it is important for each man to do good in the world because we have a duty to make the lives of others better. By so doing, we each ratify God’s choice to give us free will as free men by making right choices. If salvation comes along with the good works, that is fine, but even if it didn’t, these are the kinds of things we would be doing anyway because we love God unconditionally. Our critics say that Masonic teaching is incompatible with biblical teaching, but they confuse religious teaching with teaching about religions. Masonry does not offer information about the various different religions, but we do offer religious teachings of the highest moral caliber based on chapters found in the Old Testament. If a brother wishes to pursue the teachings of Christianity found in the New Testament, that is his choice to make unencumbered by the fraternity and we encourage his every effort at religious enlightenment according to the scriptures he embraces. In closing, I believe the critics of Freemasonry need to take a closer look at the fraternity without any preconceptions or prejudices. If they do, they will see there is nothing to fear and little to criticize about what we believe. So Mote It Be.

Fraternally and respectfully submitted,
/s/
TerryTCT, Past Master
Indiana Freemason

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: TerryTCT,

The fact that you believe in God is enough to become a Mason.

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Originally posted by USAFWannabe:
I was thinking of becoming a Mason for some time, but I don't know how the wife would take it. She always claims that I am not religious in any sense. Partially true, I haven't been to church in some time, and I seem to be more of a "non-practicing" Roman Catholic. I do believe in God. I just don't go through all the religious "hubbub" like I used to when I went to Catholic school, and a private Religious High School.

Ur wacked I have never witnessed any such behavior in any lodge I have visited here in the States or in Europe!

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Originally posted by MSG_Retired2003:

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There is NO hazing, paddling, horseplay, or any such childish conduct tolerated in ANY masonic lodge.

Really? Maybe you should tell that to someone who doesn't know any better. I PERSONALLY know better, and I am not talking hearsay.

Of course, you are correct that it doesn't have anything to do with THIS post.

This is really great keep up the good work...

quote:

Originally posted by cemab4y:
Several individuals have gone on this board, wishing to learn more about Masonry and how to become a Mason.

I have started this discussion, so that we can cut right to the chase, and assist individuals who wish to join the "Quest for Light".

If you are interested in seeking admission into the fraternity, then post your requests here. We can answer your questions, and get you connected to a lodge near your residence, and assist you in getting the paperwork submitted.

Remember, that most Grand Lodges do NOT permit "recruitment" or inviting an individual to join. The decision must be made by the individual, based on his own free will and accord. There will be no pressure to join, on this board.

SO, If your desire is sincere, or if you would just like to learn more about the Gentle Craft, then post your questions here.