Here is a hypothetical:

A Man belongs to two(2) different lodges in two(2) different states. He therefore, belongs to two(2) different grand Lodges, in the two(2) respective states.

One of his Grand Lodges is in full communications with Prince Hall Grand Lodges in nearly all of the states, and abroad. One of his Grand Lodges is NOT in communications with Prince Hall, anywhere, and considers all Prince Hall lodges and Grand Lodges to be "clandestine".

Suppose this man visits and fellowships with a Prince Hall lodge, that is in full communications with one of his Grand Lodges, and this Grand Lodge has accepted the Prince Hall lodge as "regular"?

Should this man visit and fellowship with Prince Hall lodges? Since one of his Grand Lodges is perfectly all right with visitation/fellowship, is he in violation of any regulations? Should the non-recognizing Grand Lodge, discipline or expel him?

This case is not hypothetical. It is real, and I am the subject of the discourse.

I am going to be expelled from KY Masonry, and probably from NY Masonry as well.

See what is going on at

www.cemab4y.blogspot.com

Have you considered petitioning the Prince Hall Lodge to be Healed? From my own personal experience and from what I'm sure you've already observed it thrives and is practiced practically where ever there is a US military presence. Because of the nature of your work and having spent the better part of the last few years working in conjunction with the military in the desert would it not be to your benefit? Having read your posts on here the last few years you have a love and zeal for the Craft that I can only wish more Brothers would demonstrate. For years you tried to orchestrate the creation of a Lodge in Iraq with support from your Grand Lodge in NY. From what I've seen, and I may be mistaken, you did not recieve as much support as you could or probably should have. Meanwhile Prince Hall Grand Lodges have been very active on bases over there since probably shortly after the war began. No matter what the outcome I wish you the best. Out of curiosity though why would the Grand Lodge of NY expell you if they give full recognition?

quote:

Originally posted by cemab4y:
Here is a hypothetical:

A Man belongs to two(2) different lodges in two(2) different states. He therefore, belongs to two(2) different grand Lodges, in the two(2) respective states.

One of his Grand Lodges is in full communications with Prince Hall Grand Lodges in nearly all of the states, and abroad. One of his Grand Lodges is NOT in communications with Prince Hall, anywhere, and considers all Prince Hall lodges and Grand Lodges to be "clandestine".

Suppose this man visits and fellowships with a Prince Hall lodge, that is in full communications with one of his Grand Lodges, and this Grand Lodge has accepted the Prince Hall lodge as "regular"?

Should this man visit and fellowship with Prince Hall lodges? Since one of his Grand Lodges is perfectly all right with visitation/fellowship, is he in violation of any regulations? Should the non-recognizing Grand Lodge, discipline or expel him?

I say, no, but this is a personal opinion. Anyway, I know this is about you Bro. Charles, and I feel your pain brother. Here lies the problem. If you are suspended or expelled by one Grand Lodge, then they notify the other, then you can be suspended or expelled by both since a Mason cannot communicate Masonically with one who has been suspended or expelled. As I have always stated regarding myself, I would never belong to any lodge that has an affiliation with a Grand Lodge that does not recognize the Prince Hall Masons. Some call it politics and that explanation is pure B.S. plain and simple. I would have never belonged to any lodge in a jurisdiction that did not recognize the Prince Hall Masons in the first place. You did, and herein lies your problem with your Grand Lodge. They, the Grand Lodge of the jurisdication that does not recognize Prince Hall can now say that you committed a violation of the laws, rules and regulations of their jurisdiction. They might be correct, but it would be a mistake to strip you of your rights. Should something happen, possibly, but this is what happens in the real world when you cross lines that are drawn even if they are not logical, ethical, or even politically correct. When I was Master in 2004, my lodge hosted the first ever joint Prince Hall Master Mason degree. I was so damn proud to be part of history, we informed the everyone we could what occured. I later heard rumblings around Indiana that there were brethren that demitted from the fraternity after hearing about the joint degree with our Prince Hall brethren. I say so what, who needs racist in our fraternity, period end of discussion. When I see a Prince Hall Mason, I call him my brother and treat him as such. If Indiana did not recognize Prince Hall, I would have never petitioned Masonry in the first place. If I later found out after having been raised a Master Mason, I would have demitted so fast, it would make heads spin including mine. Anyway, keep us posted Bro. Charles on what happens to you in this "so called investigation of Masonic inpropriety" you are now part of. A better explanation would be "Masonic witch hunt." I say that you have done nothing wrong and hopefully reasonable minds will prevail. Anyway, my prayers and sincere sympathies are with you my brother.

Fraternally,
/s/
Terry, PM
Freemason
Hot Topics Moderator

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TerryTCT,

Thanks to all for your kind remarks. Masonic charges will be filed soon, and I will be expelled from KY Masonry. Because NY masonry is in communications with KY masonry, normally NY masonry is required to accept the expulsion, and follow up with their own expulsion, even though no NY regulation was allegedly broken.

I should tell you, that many masons all over the USA, have come to my defense. Most outraged, are the Masonic veterans, who are furious at the whole situation. One individual in a state I do not wish to name, has even offered to send me a petition, so that I can join his lodge.

You can keep up with the situation by reading my blog:

http://www.cemab4y.blogspot.com

quote:

Originally posted by cemab4y:
Thanks to all for your kind remarks. Masonic charges will be filed soon, and I will be expelled from KY Masonry. Because NY masonry is in communications with KY masonry, normally NY masonry is required to accept the expulsion, and follow up with their own expulsion, even though no NY regulation was allegedly broken.

I should tell you, that many masons all over the USA, have come to my defense. Most outraged, are the Masonic veterans, who are furious at the whole situation. One individual in a state I do not wish to name, has even offered to send me a petition, so that I can join his lodge.

You can keep up with the situation by reading my blog:

http://www.cemab4y.blogspot.com

Bro. Charles: You have my support brother. I am a veteran and a Master Master and three time Past Master and I am indeed outraged to hear what I am hearing without seeing the charges if such have been filed. If this was me, I would take the good and timely counsel from one brother in California and petition a lodge for plural membership there and "ASAP." Here is the plan, once you get your plural membership in California, the G.L. of Kentucky and New York cannot hopefully, get the G.L. of California to take action against you. Also, there is Indiana, where you once visited recently in Fort Wayne. Get a petition for plural membership or transfer here before any action is taken. Be advised that once you are suspended, or expelled, then things get tough. I say keep your options open. I am only outraged since you sat in lodge with our brethren who is serving our country in harms way and now you going to be punished for it. I would let your Prince Hall brethren know this too, I believe that regardless of the outcome, they will accept you with open arms. Then you can visit any state that has recognition of Prince Hall brethren. Now how is that for keeping options open? Keep the faith and good luck and god speed be with you my brother.

Fraternally,
/s/
Terry, PM
Freemason
Hot Topics Moderator

Again, thanks for the kind remarks and the support. USN Gunner, please feel free to read any of my posts, if you find them useful to your lodge.

If you would be willing to accept me as a member of your lodge, please send me a PM, and I will send you the information.

On the Square,
Charles E. Martin

It's well known that Texas Masons don't "freely communicate" with Prince Hall Masons.

When at lodge one night I asked about this question because in California where I am PCS'ing too, the "Military" lodge that most guys I know belong to is a Prince Hall Lodge.

I was told that it was a violation of my obligation. I asked, what about the part that stated "...to abide by the C, R, & E of the GL of the State or Territory I am in?"

Nobody I guess has ever considered that part, still however none saw my point or agreed with me.

When will we as two seperate orgainizations come to the realization that we are one people and one fraternity? When will the race division end? If we are truely brothers who believe in the Grand Architect of the Universe and that "...it is the internal, not the external.." we would not behave in this manner.

If you are not in agreeance with that fact, then you are not living your life in line with the true tenants of Freemasonry. If you do, I urge you to be the voice of change. The darkest of night can not extinguish the light of one single candle, make sure that you shine the true light of the Craft to the world as well as in your lodges.

All Masons here are my brothers, may we ever meet, act, & part as such.

....my .02 cents

My thoughts and prayers are with you my brother, you have done nothing wrong. I f it were not for the example set by Prince Hall Masons whom were NCO's in my infantry company in Germany I would not be a mason today and I am forever in their debt. I am just returning to being active in the craft again and the actions of the KYGL greatly disturbs me.... let me know what I can do to assist. Fraternally and faithfully,
Andrew Thomas Fahey
Dewitt Clinton Lodge AF&AM
GL of Massachusetts

quote:

Originally posted by USNGunner1:
And California does not recognize any Grand Lodge that do not recognize Prince Hall, so Christopher you can't even visit my lodge in San Diego.

You're kidding me right??

Texas came to a gentlemans agreement last year at our annual Grand Lodge. GLofTX recognizees the PHGLofTX as being "regular in origin"... We can not however, visit each others lodges, hold Masonic communication, etc... without "violating our obligation."

To me, the recognition is nothing more than a shallow attempt to make Masonry in the Southern states a little more palatable to those who are politically correct.

When will we finally be able to admit what it really is and break down the color barrier??

quote:

Originally posted by USNGunner1:
Then Texas recognizes Prince Hall?

quote:

Originally posted by SigNuCoastie:

quote:

Originally posted by USNGunner1:
And California does not recognize any Grand Lodge that do not recognize Prince Hall, so Christopher you can't even visit my lodge in San Diego.

You're kidding me right??

Texas came to a gentlemans agreement last year at our annual Grand Lodge. GLofTX recognizees the PHGLofTX as being "regular in origin"... We can not however, visit each others lodges, hold Masonic communication, etc... without "violating our obligation."

To me, the recognition is nothing more than a shallow attempt to make Masonry in the Southern states a little more palatable to those who are politically correct.

When will we finally be able to admit what it really is and break down the color barrier??

If you look at the following link, it shows various maps and demographics and states/jurisdictions that recognize Prince Hall lodges. I will let the reader draw his own conclusions. However, I will say this, if any of these jurisdictions calls this politics, then they are politically incorrect. I am proud to say that in my jurisdiction here in Indiana we recognize Prince Hall lodges and rightfully so because we are all brothers. We will be monitoring Bro. Charles situation closely.

http://bessel.org/masrec/phamapshistorical.htm

Fraternally,
/s/
Terry, PM
Freemason
Hot Topics Moderator

I am deeply touched by all of your comments. I have received emails from masons all over the USA, and they have all been supportive.

I want to stress, that no decision has been made yet. The situation needs to be given time, to see what happens. I believe that the subject individuals involved, are reasonable men, and that they will listen to reason.

I intend to take my discipline like a man, and accept what happens. Many masons have sent me very encouraging remarks, and some have offered to accept me as a meber of their lodges. I am overwhelmed, by these offers.

I believe sincerely, that Prince Hall masons are my true brothers. Military masons in Iraq, most especially, because they are here in Iraq serving with distinction. I am just the rear-area electronics geek.

quote:

Originally posted by cemab4y:
This case is not hypothetical. It is real, and I am the subject of the discourse.

I am going to be expelled from KY Masonry, and probably from NY Masonry as well.

See what is going on at

www.cemab4y.blogspot.com

Bro. Charles:

I recently has some discussions with some well informed Prince Hall brethren and here is their input. While these Prince Hall brethren said that regardless of the situation, you knew what the G.L. of KY does not recognize Prince Hall, therefore, you are in technical violation of the laws, rules and regulations of the G.L. of KY. The infraction would be the equivalent of visiting a "Clandestine Lodge." Also, the Prince Hall lodge you visited would also be in violation of their governing Prince Hall Grand Lodge for allowing you, who would be considered a "Clandestine Mason," to enter their lodge. Now the resolution. These Prince Hall brethren said, if you demit "ASAP" from the G.L. of Ky, they can't suspend or expell you. Next, you transfer to another lodge in a jurisdiction that recognizes Prince Hall and you are not going to be in fear of being suspended, or expelled. However, once suspended or expelled, you might not get back in and this includes the Prince Hall too. Finally, these Prince Hall brethren I spoke with asked the obvious question, how did anyone find out that you visited a Prince Hall lodge unless you are out advertising it all over your "Blog" and elsewhere on the internet? These Prince Hall brothers said, if you are out bragging, you are going to become a victim of "fragging." These Prince Hall brethren said, if only you kept quiet, then no one would know any differently because they know how to keep the secrets of a brother Mason, murder and treason excluded! Again, we will be monitoring your situation closely.
Fraternally,
/s/
Terry, PM
Freemason
Hot Topics Moderator

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TerryTCT,

I honestly thought that I was doing nothing wrong. Associating with soldiers and officers in the US Army, who practice Freemasonry, should not be grounds for expulsion. I hold dual memberships KY and New York. I honestly thought that since NY recognizes Prince Hall, then my NY membership permitted me to visit the lodge. In 2006, I visited a lodge in Moscow, which is a regular lodge, and recognized by KY. I did even check with NY, because I attended under my KY membership.

I keep a blog of my activities here in Iraq. If I thought I was doing something wrong, I would not have made the posting. It is only when you are breaking a regulation, is when you keep it a secret. I am 3000 miles from home, in the Iraqi desert. No one would have ever known.

Masonic veterans are pounding the Grand Lodge of KY, with comments, that are "incendiary". But the decision has been made. I will be expelled, all that it will take is some paperwork.

Masonry is no longer part of my life. I will take my discipline like a man.

quote:

Originally posted by cemab4y:
I honestly thought that I was doing nothing wrong.

I keep a blog of my activities here in Iraq. If I thought I was doing something wrong, I would not have made the posting.

But the decision has been made. I will be expelled, all that it will take is some paperwork.

Masonry is no longer part of my life. I will take my discipline like a man.

Bro. Charles:

I agree with the other brother who said, just don't roll over and die, fight to the death. Remember the warrior spirit, you are in the "Sand box," where every U.S. servicemember in harms way fight the good fight and they never surrender. I say, just don't give up, fight i.e. if charges are brought up, ask for a trial, bring in the facts and then let a jury of your peers decide your fate.

The Masonic warrior would say: "There is strength in the lion of the tribe of judah and he shall prevail." Fight till the end and when and only when death is certain, face death like a man. Never give up, never say die!

Fraternally and sincerely,
/s/
Terry, PM
Freemason
Hot Topics Moderator

quote I do not understand why you would not just demit before charges are filed? unquote

I wanted to take this action, and just demit. The GM of masons in KY contacted my KY lodge, and told them not to accept any demit request from me, even though charges had not yet been filed.

I am most certainly not giving up. When I stated that I would take my discipline like a man, I should have been more clear, and stated:

I will fight this action, and demand a trial, and make every effort to see it through, with justice.

If found in violation, after a proper investigation, then I will accept the decision like a man.

I sat in lodge with true heroes; officers and soldiers of the US Army who face death every day in this place. If this is grounds for expulsion from KY masonry, KY masonry needs to change.

So mote it be!

Charles E. Martin
Taji,Iraq

For what it is worth, I was told that you following the rules of the jurisdiction that you are in. If you are in an area that accepts Prince Hall, you accept Prince Hall. If you are in an area that does not, well, than you do not. I am a dual member in GA and in ME, and let me tell you, it is a see saw ride, but I have come to learn that if I stick with the lodges and I know, and the brothers I know, than all will be fine, wherever it is that I go.

This is what I thought, as well. There is no "Grand Lodge of Iraq", and therefore no masonic jurisdiction here in Iraq. No USA grand Lodge claims jurisdiction here.

There are several PH lodges operating at the various military camps here.

I hold dual membership with KY and NY, Ky does not recognize PH Grand Lodges in the USA. NY recognizes PH masonry in New York, and in states where the "mainstream" grand Lodge recognizes PH. I know exactly what you mean, by saying it is a "seesaw".

To play it safe, I have never attended any PH lodge ever before.

If you have not attended a PH lodge, how can you be expelled?

Have you looked into getting "Healed" and seeking membership in the Prince Hall Lodge you visited?

quote:

Originally posted by TerryTCT:

If you look at the following link, it shows various maps and demographics and states/jurisdictions that recognize Prince Hall lodges. I will let the reader draw his own conclusions. However, I will say this, if any of these jurisdictions calls this politics, then they are politically incorrect. I am proud to say that in my jurisdiction here in Indiana we recognize Prince Hall lodges and rightfully so because we are all brothers. We will be monitoring Bro. Charles situation closely.

http://bessel.org/masrec/phamapshistorical.htm

Fraternally,
/s/
Terry, PM
Freemason
Hot Topics Moderator

Thanks Terry... I liked that & it was useful information. It is a little out dated, because as I stated, the GLofTX "recognizes" the PH GLofTX. I still think it's silly, back woods bubba good old boy politics, but that's me.

On another note, I had another veteran PH brother call me today when I got home. He is demitting from the PH GLofOK and "renouncing" Prince Hall Masonry to move into the "regular" GLofGA.
What's the deal? I think we need a serious brain storming session to help some of these Grand Lodges see the true light of Freemasonry. Any ideas brothers?

quote:

Originally posted by SigNuCoastie:
Thanks Terry... I liked that & it was useful information. It is a little out dated, because as I stated, the GLofTX "recognizes" the PH GLofTX. I still think it's silly, back woods bubba good old boy politics, but that's me.

On another note, I had another veteran PH brother call me today when I got home. He is demitting from the PH GLofOK and "renouncing" Prince Hall Masonry to move into the "regular" GLofGA.
What's the deal? I think we need a serious brain storming session to help some of these Grand Lodges see the true light of Freemasonry. Any ideas brothers?

This is one tough nut to crack. The place to start is with veterans who upon their return from harm's way begin to do as one PH brother above is doing which is taking matters in his own hands. As in any peaceful movement, especially in the area of civil rights, it takes those who will take the initiative on their own without waiting on something to happen on a grand scale. My .02 cents.
Fraternally,
/s/
Terry, PM
Freemason
Hot Topics Moderator

quote:

Originally posted by prdavis32:
If you have not attended a PH lodge, how can you be expelled?

I should have been more clear. I attended a PH lodge, here in Iraq on April 5,2008. Prior to this date, I had never attended a PH lodge before.

The GL of Kentucky is preparing charges, and I will be expelled from the GL of Kentucky.

Without going into detail, naturally, was the opening and closing like ours? I ask that for the simple purpose of, if it is, where did they obtain the information from? I know GLofGA is dead set against anything that is not F&AM.

I hope your journey goes well, brother.

Brother Charles,
Did you attend and actual tiled PHA meeting.
If not, then you did not violate your obligation to the GL of KY.
I would suggest like Brother Terry advised.
Demit from KY ASAP. If it is not to Late. Your lodge may not permit it until the dispute is settled.

JJ

quote:

Originally posted by TerryTCT:
This is one tough nut to crack. The place to start is with veterans who upon their return from harm's way begin to do as one PH brother above is doing which is taking matters in his own hands. As in any peaceful movement, especially in the area of civil rights, it takes those who will take the initiative on their own without waiting on something to happen on a grand scale. My .02 cents.
Fraternally,
/s/
Terry, PM
Freemason
Hot Topics Moderator

In many ways I believe that we here on this board are the foot soldiers in that movement. Those before us wouldn't even dare speak to each other about a Masonic related topic, much less the level of communication we do have. Even though we might not ever sit in a tiled lodge together, we are brothers just the same. All of us here know that.

Terry, you are 110% right when you say that we each as individuals must speak up and not wait for the Grand Lodges to change. You cannot ever see change without someone being there voiceing change and setting it into motion.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had a dream. I too share that dream, where all on this planet will dwell together in unity. So mote it be.

Brethren,
Tim Bryce is one of the most informative brothers that I know on Grand Lodges and Masons. Who are still in the dark ages and have not realized we now are in the 21st Century.
His talks are very informative on the problems that Freemasonry faces from within. We need not fear outsiders who for century's with great effort have failed to bring down the greatest fraternity dedicated to the well being of all mankind. The demise of Freemasonry will come from with in it's self from those few who are in power, but do not live up to the true principles of our gentile craft.
http://www.freemasoninformation.com/bryce/Fromtheedge.htm

Frat. John

I did attend the tiled meeting, after showing my NY dues card, and being satisfied that the lodge here, was in communications with the GL of NY, and that there would be no problem, since NY recognized the lodge here as "regular".

When the GM of Masons in KY found out, he immediately contacted my home lodge, and told them not to accept any requests for demit.

Masonic veterans from KY and other states, are sending blistering letters to the GM of KY, demading that he understand the situation here. Since there is no Grand Lodge of Iraq, and no USA grand Lodge claims jurisdiction here, and since my NY membership is adequate for visitation, then there should be no problem.

Some traditionalists are also sending mail to the GM of KY, demanding my immediate expulsion. He is between a rock and a hard place. I do not envy his problems.

Masonic charges in KY will be filed, there will be some sort of hearing, obviously without me present. I have explained the situation to the GM of Masons in Ky fully, and asked for consideration. I could be let off with a reprimand, or suspension, I don't know.

I do believe that Masons should speak up, individually and in groups, and demand that we continue to move to recognize all Masons as our brothers. I attended a lodge here in Iraq, with true heroes. Officers and soldiers of the US Army, who stare death in the eye every day. Since no grand Lodge in the USA has offered to set up any Masonic lodge in Iraq in the five years, that the US forces have been here, PH Masonry is all there is. USA grand Lodges should understand this.

I was only in that lodge for 15 (fifteen) minutes. I work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, and the company driver came to the parking lot, to get me, and I had to leave.

I have never been to a PH lodge, in the past, but I am certain that the PH lodges use a similar ritual to F&AM lodges.

Things are changing. Last week Florida PH grand Lodge voted unilaterally to recognize the F&AM lodge in Florida. Cheers for them!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: cemab4y,

I hate that all this has happened, knowing what the outcome would be. I would have to think that GLofNY will make some kind of stand for you to the GLofKY. Odd that after all these years that we cannot all get along, I mean, GL's in this country can't even see eye to eye. I hate the fact the GLofGA will have NOTHING to do with PH. A good friend of mine that is a MSgt. stopped by here the other day and I noticed his ring, and said NOTHING. I could say not a word, to a man that provides a blanket of protection to me. That is a man that deserves more than that, but that is just the ways and times that we live. I do not know if both could merge without major problems, but at least be recognized. 200+ years of freedom in this country and 300+ years we are set back. It is a shame. The Elks Club opened doors to all, and they are OK. Moose Lodge and others have done the same. Just saddens me is all.

quote:

Originally posted by SigNuCoastie:

quote:

Originally posted by TerryTCT:
This is one tough nut to crack. The place to start is with veterans who upon their return from harm's way begin to do as one PH brother above is doing which is taking matters in his own hands. As in any peaceful movement, especially in the area of civil rights, it takes those who will take the initiative on their own without waiting on something to happen on a grand scale. My .02 cents.
Fraternally,
/s/
Terry, PM
Freemason
Hot Topics Moderator

In many ways I believe that we here on this board are the foot soldiers in that movement. Those before us wouldn't even dare speak to each other about a Masonic related topic, much less the level of communication we do have. Even though we might not ever sit in a tiled lodge together, we are brothers just the same. All of us here know that.

Terry, you are 110% right when you say that we each as individuals must speak up and not wait for the Grand Lodges to change. You cannot ever see change without someone being there voiceing change and setting it into motion.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had a dream. I too share that dream, where all on this planet will dwell together in unity. So mote it be.

Brother: Thanks for your kind words and thoughts. As a true believer in the civil rights movement, the late Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., once said,
"INJUSTICE ANYWHERE IS A THREAT TO JUSTICE EVERYWHERE."
Need one say more?

Fraternally,
/s/
Terry, PM
Freemason
Hot Topics Moderator