When the first body armor was ever issued I was in Korea and my outfit (Wpns Cn, 2nd Bn, 5th Marines) Was on the list of the first to try it out.We were in the mountains, in the Summer, and most of our movements were on foot. After only a few days no one was wearing the heavy, hot vests even though the brass wanted us too. I am sure todays technology has improved greatly but I see the Marine has not changed his practical approach to solving problems in combat.

Well chief, armor is good, even by todays standards, but its still not light enough. Average Marines or GI carries about 70 lbs of gear. No one wants an addition twenty five pounds of armor on, especially when doing foot patrols from sector A to b.

Right now, light armor is only good against turning small caliber rounds. Soldiers and Marines are faced with armor defeating calibers like 7.62x39 and well you know the list.

Marines Iraq turned down the armor because it was too heavy, and you need some thick plating to turn heavy calibers. I mean my father was in the Army Rangers and he said those damn plates they carried weighed like bricks.

So the technology still has to step up a notch. I am sure they will come up with something.

so the Army no longer wants to reimburse for personally purchased body armor. As a Viet Nasm era Vet with over 1500 hours of flying as a "gunner" as part of a pink team I tell you now. The M16 was crap and the M60 not much better. I purchased an M3 grease gun and used it for backup, not an M16. That old piece of crap saved a few lives in the year I had it. Most of our LOH pilots carried a 45, not the 38 they were issued. I had 1 that I purchased for myself, had to use it on occasion, never failed to knock down what it hit (did not hang around long enough to check bodies) The REMFs at many bases could not understand our liking for older weapons, but they never put it on the line, either. If someone wants a better weapon or armor so be it. It is time to pass laws stating that ex military types cannot be hired by defens contractors or forfeit pensions and benefits. In about 10 years we would have the absolute world's best.
JM2CW

Yeah, alot of vets can testify that the older weapons were made to last. Time will tell. I swear I will take the enemies weapon if my M16 fails on me.

Well there is the "dragon skin" armor out now (or is it?

From what I've read, it was rejected by the Army but was recently brought back in for retesting. No results yet, though that stuff appears to do wonders for stopping all kinds of stuff.

I feel you with older weapons. The Force recon guys I met had 45's. Whle everyone else had M9's. Many marines I met bought their own scopes. Many were pretty cool.

I wish I could bring my personal weapons the next time I get deployed. But since it's unauthorized now a days I will bring accessaries, like my pregnant wife LOL. But since my last deployment I have become a bit of a geardo.

geardo - someone who buys the best military gear, even if they don't need it.

I was wondering about the dragon skin. I heard the same thing that it failed originally but was sent back for testing. I also heard that personal bodyarmor is now unauthorized in country. Too bad.

I like Crye Precisions bodyarmor system. It's the same systems that you see in the video game Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter. They put the Armor outside of the vest which gives the wearer more comfort. Also the armor isn't against the body so all the energy from the round stay in the armor and doesn't go into the body. It's the energy of the round that kills you not the bullet. But the armor system is twice the price of the interceptor vests used by current military personal. It's about $2000 w/o plates.

Hi, my names dave. Im a noob
However, I have been studying ballistics and armor for a long time and have two patents pending on nxtgen armor (natick keeps promising shear thickening fluid, yeah, 10 yrs later...)
Anyways, I know Murray Neal of Pinnacle Armor now for several years, and he is a man of his word. I have spoken personally to several security contractors whom wear it, like it. And saw, and talked on the phone to one fella that was hit in the sandbox withit on. THREE TIMES IN THE BACK..he didnt even know it......??
Dragon Skin Armor is a great idea. My personal opinion, and this is no dig at Murray's Skins is that its just too expensive. $5000 each????
R U KIDDING ME>? well, based on how they are made, thats the deal. Oh yea, in case you are not following me, Im talking about the SOV Vest of Pinnaclearmor.com Im not a salesman for him, I got my own stuff.
There are people out here with ideas and ways to keep safe the people whom go into harms way on our behalf, I personally, have devoted the rest of my life, after working in private/contractor type security overseas from Africa to S. America to make this a reality.
I dont mean to deviate the conversation, but I want to mention that I have some final SLA pictures of the WOR4 Tacrail. There not up on my site yet, and the CAD images , to me, just look like non believeable cartoons.
I d like to post post a couple of them here, but dont wannna be a drive by "advertiser". thats not cool. Im sure someone will tell me if its ok or not.

If you want specifics on dragon skin, pinnaclearmor.com is a great site, you'll learn some stuff. I personally went to DHB, (pointblank) before they had their big shakeup, havent been there since, but called and got the same high and mighty attitude. Im not interested in someone who says, "oh yea, just send it over>", Im like, "sign an NDA".. they say NO, I say forget it....

Best, sorry for the rambling, Dave (callsign: Icepik)

Leg armor to protect the lower body in a modular fashion exists and is being tested. It is light, form fitting and is IIIA ballistic rated just like the standard torso IBA. You can run, jump etc. All this talk about no mobility is false. I know, I have worn it, it works, saves your thighs and femoral injury from blast and projectile. Many don't realize if your femoral artery is damaged, you will bleed to death very fast. The artery can also once severed get pulled back up into the thigh making a it very hard to treat. Modular armor is a reality.

My cousin, a recent grad of Green Beret School, is being deployed to Iraq relatively soon. (A graduation gift??) The Army qualified him to wear a new body armor, Dragon-Skin Armor, which is suppose to be superior to "standard issue." Well, the catch is - the soldier must pay $5,800 out of his own pocket if he wants this extra protection.

Questions: Does anyone out there in cyperspace know about this Dragon-Skin Armor? Is it truly worth the cost? Has anyone worn it in combat? Is it an item that some manufacturer wants to make a few bucks on at the expense of our soldiers? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

(website for Dragon Armor:
www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

Well, the catch is - the soldier must pay $5,800 out of his own pocket if he wants this extra protection.

Questions: Does anyone out there in cyperspace know about this Dragon-Skin Armor? Is it truly worth the cost? Has anyone worn it in combat? Is it an item that some manufacturer wants to make a few bucks on at the expense of our soldiers? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
I am quite familiar with Murray Neals Dragon Skin, we first talked about 5 years ago as he was formulating his plan to produce dragon skin.
I was working on an armor of my own design, and he was very coordial and friendly, definitly a gentleman. Im not throwing out "drive by ads" here, but my site is
www:survivalconsultants.com
Best, David Woroner, Pres. SCI

Thank you.

(website for Dragon Armor:
www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by mricepik:
Well, the catch is - the soldier must pay $5,800 out of his own pocket if he wants this extra protection.

Questions: Does anyone out there in cyperspace know about this Dragon-Skin Armor? Is it truly worth the cost? Has anyone worn it in combat? Is it an item that some manufacturer wants to make a few bucks on at the expense of our soldiers? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
I am quite familiar with Murray Neals Dragon Skin, we first talked about 5 years ago as he was formulating his plan to produce dragon skin.
I was working on an armor of my own design, and he was very coordial and friendly, definitly a gentleman. Im not throwing out "drive by ads" here, but my site is
www:survivalconsultants.com
Best, David Woroner, Pres. SCI

Thank you.

(website for Dragon Armor:
www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by mricepik:
Well, the catch is - the soldier must pay $5,800 out of his own pocket if he wants this extra protection.

Questions: Does anyone out there in cyperspace know about this Dragon-Skin Armor? Is it truly worth the cost? Has anyone worn it in combat? Is it an item that some manufacturer wants to make a few bucks on at the expense of our soldiers? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
I am quite familiar with Murray Neals Dragon Skin, we first talked about 5 years ago as he was formulating his plan to produce dragon skin.
I was working on an armor of my own design, and he was very coordial and friendly, definitly a gentleman. Im not throwing out "drive by ads" here, but my site is
www:survivalconsultants.com
Best, David Woroner, Pres. SCI

Thank you.

(website for Dragon Armor:
www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

[/QUOTE]

Thank you. I'll pass this on to family member going to Iraq.
AF

Tell that family member to keep the armor he was issued by whichever SF Group he is with. Dragonskin armor isnt worth the glue that holds it (or fails to hold it as it were) together.

It failed the tests the Army put it thru miserably. Mr Neal was a salesman for the guy who originally invented the Dragon-Skin concept and not its designer as he likes to advertise himself to be.

quote:

From Evolutionarmor.com:

The Flexible Rifle Armor Concept

There has been much publicity behind the scalar type armor made of discus shaped tiles called "Dragon Skin". Pinnacle Armor has also been at odds with the military as it pertains to why the military hasn't adopted this system.

There are quite a few reasons, and if you have read the Pinnacle Armor propaganda you will hear about tales of fraud, sabotage, and protection of the good old boy network as it relates to the "Interceptor Vest". I can tell you as someone who works with the military on this kind of endeavor there are a lot of reasons why this armor hasn't been universally adopted and the reasons above are basically false. The truth is Pinnacle Armor received clearance to forward samples to the Army and was paid 170,000 dollars, and that was after they were paid almost a 1,000,000.00 dollars to develop the armor from where we left off after we sold patent rights to Pinnacle Armor in October of 2000.

The major flaw was not observing the Article One testing environmental conditioning protocol, which calls for the armor to withstand 165 degrees F for 6 hours. After five years of development and having the protocol in hand you would figure that the adhesive used to affix the tiles to the high strength fabric would be of the high temperature variety, it wasn't, and because of that these vests failed. OOPS!


We certainly won't be the ones to say the technology isn't good, we believe it is the future, but since our non-compete agreement expired with Pinnacle Armor we have entered the market and have our own flexible armor that doesn't use dependent claims to achieve a workable tile capable of flexible operation and defeat of the A.P. rifle threats. Kodos for Pinnacle Armor and their saves with this system, but we're back and soon will enter the market with fully functional flexible rifle armor.

The fact is most of Pinnacle Armor's systems were invented by Allan D. Bain formally of Armor Technology Corp.. Pinnacle Armor started manufacturing after we educated Mr. Neal how to make armor by contract executed in October of 2000 that was fair and honestly fulfilled. Pinnacle Armor and Mr. Neal never manufactured any body armor prior to this date. So if you hear about Pinnacle Armor or the "Dragon Skin" armor being manufactured since 1995 your talking about armor that Pinnacle Armor never made or developed. In fact Murray Neal was a sales representative for Armor Technology from 1997 - October of 2000 a company owned entirely by Allan D. Bain, the true inventor of Dragon Skin.

In a few months look for our products as they leave the development stage and begin service. For more info review our products page for updates as they occur.
http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Flex.htm

Dr. Gary Roberts (dentist), LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center is the ballistics expert for Pinnacle Armor. For some reason Dr. Roberts leaves out the "FACT" that he is a doctor of dentistry every time his name is linked to Dragon-Skin. (Just like on this webpage http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/20061005-pr.php )

How does a dentist come to the place in his career that he is knowledgeable to argue with bona fide Trauma Surgeons concerning terminal ballistics effects on human tissue? He doesnt.

Dragon-skin (scaler armor) is a great theory but it has failed the testing.

Thor

Hello All, I read Thor's post with much and sincere interest. I don't have the ability to dispute (and don't care too honestly) the veracity of the timing and "who taught who what". The fact of the matter is 1) I have talked to people who have been hit by 7.62X54R (drugonov) rnds, multiple times wearing this armor, and it saved their rear ends. According to the Patent Office, Mr. Neal OWNS the Patent.
After seing a grenade placed under the PA Scalar Armor, and zero pen. Im afraid someones gonna have to get over "selling out prematurely" is about all i can say....And, it would appear someone is, which is the way it should be.
I've placed my IP papers w/ my attorney on my "entrance" into the field. I do NOT call myself a doctor, however, I will put my wits up against any ballistics engineer any day. I have in the past. Im a member of HVIS. Earned it. And have been interviewed on the subject repetitevly. Now, I do NOT claim to be "the top gun", nope, not at all.
However, I will say this. The armor I have created (which was originally designed for troops) <and still can be used that way, is also an excellent choice for APC's, HumV's, etc.
These huge Metal Behemoths being built by Blackwater, etc. are serious comical. (ok, ok, I'll give em credit for the "boat hull", lol
One day I hope to find some folks who are open minded enough to see what "someone who isn't in the "cool loop" has to offer."
It is, Im sorry, a tight niche of fellas, just go to DHB, oh wait, everyone got fired except the head/ballistics engineer... hehe.
Oh well, one day, I'll find someone to sit down with and show them how they have all been missing the simplest of things that will literally change the battlefield. Im all ears.
(maybe a bit of a smart *** ) but all ears....
Best, Msgt. Icepik

quote:

Originally posted by nuka_cola_chaser:

Right now, light armor is only good against turning small caliber rounds. Soldiers and Marines are faced with armor defeating calibers like 7.62x39 and well you know the list.

except the issued SAPI plates defeat the 7.62x39 caliber round.

...[related]...


New, Improved Military Equipment Showcased at Capitol Hill Exhibit

(Source: US Department of Defense; issued June 6, 2007)

WASHINGTON --- America’s service-members are the best-equipped in the world, and people could see and touch an array of all-new or improved military equipment on exhibit on Capitol Hill here today.

Attendees examined a revamped Land Warrior ground-soldier system, inspected improved body armor, tasted the latest field rations and viewed a new aerial cargo delivery system along with more equipment on display at the one-day exhibit held inside the Rayburn House Office Building. The exhibit is co-sponsored by the U.S. Army’s Natick Soldier Research, Development and Engineering Center, Natick, Mass., and Program Executive Office Soldier based at Fort Belvoir, Va.

The Army’s Land Warrior individual combat system was a popular exhibit. Land Warrior is a prototype system that harnesses computer technology and earth-orbiting satellites to boost an infantryman’s survivability on the battlefield, while providing senior leaders with real-time information about the situation on the ground, said Army Sgt. Philip Morici, an infantryman who demonstrates the Land Warrior system.

In development since the early 1990s, the current version of Land Warrior is “a great system, but it’s obviously not the end-result of what we want,” Morici said as he hefted a specially-equipped M-4 carbine that is integrated with the Land Warrior system.

Land Warrior is now being tested by an Army unit in Iraq, the sergeant noted. “We’re slowly getting the info back and we’re making the changes we need to,” Morici said.

Recent improvements to Land Warrior resulted in an 8-pound weight loss compared to the previous edition, Morici said. Future versions of Land Warrior will likely be smaller, lighter, and be wireless and voice-activated, he predicted.

The improved armored tactical vest now being fielded provides servicemembers with the best protection available, said Francis Hayden, a soldier survivability expert with Program Executive Office Soldier at Fort Belvoir.

The improved vest now weighs 29 pounds for a size medium, a 4-pound weight reduction, Hayden said. It features a new, tailored fit, he noted, that in tandem with expanded sizes for longer torsos, provides increased area of protection coverage.

The vest also has a weight re-distributing internal waistband that makes it more comfortable to wear. The vest still incorporates ceramic-plate inserts that will stop a variety of small-arms projectiles, Hayden noted.

“It provides full, 360-degrees protection on the torso,” Hayden said of the new vest, noting it includes detachable protection for the upper arms and groin. The new vest also features a pull-release device for quick removal in case of emergencies, he noted.

“The Interceptor body armor is the best body armor, right now, that we have out on the street for our soldiers,” Hayden emphasized.

And, thanks to the new Unitized Group Ration Express, also called “Kitchen in a Carton,” U.S. servicemembers deployed to austere locales will soon be able to enjoy hot meals even though there’s no dining facility in sight, said Gerald Darsch, director for DoD Combat Feeding at the Natick facility.

The Kitchen in a Carton system is self-heating and features menu items such as turkey dinner with gravy, Darsch said.

“It requires no cook, no fuel, no equipment and no power,” he explained, noting each self-contained system is designed to be air-dropped, weighs 40 pounds and feeds 18 servicemembers.

Kitchen in a Carton, Darsch said, is one of two newly developed military field rations. The other new field food is called the “First-Strike Ration,” he said, and it’s designed for troops on the move.

The all-in-one ration is designed to replace multi-component meals-ready-to-eat, Darsch said, noting they contain about 3,000 calories, enough to feed a warfighter for one day.

“Everything contained in that First-Strike Ration is designed to be consumed on the move,” Darsch explained. “Even the beverages come in an ergonomically designed pouch, where you don’t have to fumble with the canteen or the canteen cup.” Officials hope to field this new ration soon, he said.

And, through the new Joint Precision Airdrop System, the U.S. military has developed a novel method to aerially deliver rations, fuel, ammunition and other vital supplies to troops in the field.

After exiting a cargo plane flying as high as 25,000 feet above the ground, the computer-controlled JPADS parachute system “self-maneuvers using Global Positioning System coordinates to a drop zone as small as 100 meters,” Ed Doucette, Natick’s director of air delivery and warfighter protection, explained. Computer-controlled twisting or warping of the system’s wing-shaped parachute causes the airborne payload to turn left or right, he noted.

A 2,000-pound payload version of the JPADS system has been used in Afghanistan, Doucette said, noting another system with a 10,000-pound capacity also has been developed.

“There are further plans to deploy more of those (2,000-pound systems) over the next six months, and then rapidly field the 10,000-pound systems, as well,” Doucette noted.

-ends-


The US Army exhibited the improved Land Warrior individual soldier combat system on Capitol Hill in Washington. (US Army photo)

Honeywell Introduces Improved Line of Ballistic Materials for Body and Vehicle Armor

(Source: Honeywell; issued June 14, 2007)

MORRIS TOWNSHIP, N.J. --- Honeywell announced today that it has developed a new line of Spectra fiber-based materials with improved ballistic stopping capability for body and vehicle armor.

The new line of materials, called Spectra Shield II, has demonstrated up to 20 percent greater ballistic performance than Honeywell's standard Spectra Shield product line, which already uses one of the strongest man-made fibers in commercial use today. Pound for pound, Spectra fiber is 15 times stronger than steel yet light enough to float. Shield technology is a patented Honeywell process designed to optimize the ballistic performance characteristics of Spectra fiber.

For Spectra Shield II ballistic materials, Honeywell has adapted its patented shield technology to incorporate its new and improved fiber. Spectra S3000 fiber was developed specifically for use in armor applications to help manufacturers and the military counter new ballistic threats.

"Our armor materials have been used to protect military and police personnel for nearly 20 years," said Joe Gelo, business director for Honeywell's Advanced Fibers and Composites business. "We continue to invest in improving our materials to meet the future performance requirements of advanced military and law enforcement agencies. Our latest offering demonstrates our commitment to continued innovation in the ballistic protection arena."

Honeywell has completed upgrades of several production lines to manufacture the fiber used for Spectra Shield II and plans to make additional investments to meet the growing need.

Honeywell's patented Spectra Shield and Spectra Shield II materials are used in advanced armor systems for a wide a range of ballistic protection and security applications -- from bullet-resistant vests, breastplates, and helmets to combat vehicles and military aircraft -- where lightweight solutions and durability are critical. This latest Spectra fiber-based material, like Honeywell's existing products, is transparent to radar.

Spectra fiber is made from ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene using a patented gel-spinning process. The fiber exhibits high resistance to chemicals, water, and ultraviolet light. It has excellent vibration damping, flex fatigue and internal fiber-friction characteristics. It also has up to 60 percent greater specific strength than aramid fiber.

The various Spectra Shield products are manufactured by bonding parallel strands of fiber in place with an advanced resin system. In addition to Spectra fiber, Honeywell adapts this technology to other fibers, including aramid.

Honeywell also produces Spectra fiber for industrial applications such as rope and marine cordage. Honeywell maintains an active Spectra fiber and ballistic material research and development program aimed to meet increased demand for its high performance armor materials.

Army Continues Working to Improve Warfighters’ Gear, Equipment

(Source: US Army; issued June 15, 2007)

WASHINGTON --- Today’s soldiers have the best equipment available, and the Army keeps striving to improve it, the general who oversees the equipping effort said.

“In the history of warfare, there has never been a ground soldier as well equipped and capable as the U.S. Army is today,” Army Brig. Gen. R. Mark Brown told Pentagon reporters during a roundtable briefing yesterday.

The weapons, clothing and other gear used by warfighters today make them “more capable, more survivable, more lethal and with better communications than any time in history,” Brown said.

“Even though that’s the case, we never rest on our laurels,” he said. “We’re always looking for something better. … We get the state-of-the-art, and then we immediately start going on to the next thing.”

As commander of the Army’s Program Executive Office Soldier program, Brown oversees the production of everything soldiers wear or carry. That ranges from uniform items, protective gear and weapons to optical equipment and communications systems.

With a $1 billion annual budget for research and development and $4.4 billion for procurement, PEO Soldier’s 400 programs all work toward a common goal. “The eternal challenge in PEO Soldier is to balance size, weight and power consumption with soldier capabilities,” Brown said.

That means giving troops the highest-quality, most dependable, lowest-maintenance gear possible, but with the lowest weight and least bulk. It’s a constant balancing act between lightening equipment without losing capability, while adding new systems as they come on line, he said.

Brown’s goal is to limit the maximum fighting load to one-third of a soldier’s body weight. That’s a huge challenge, he acknowledged, when some missions currently require as much as 100 pounds of equipment.

Even the latest Interceptor body armor and outer tactical vest now being fielded weigh about 27.8 pounds. This figure varies slightly depending on size and doesn’t include the added weight for throat and groin attachments or deltoid protection.

Brown said he’s impressed with the speed in which new equipment is reaching the force. The Army has introduced nine body-armor improvements in the last five years and four helmet improvements in the last three.

“What we try to do is develop these things as rapidly as we can and do the research and development, the test, the acquisition as simultaneously as we can,” he said. “A lot is being done and being delivered to the soldier at the right place and right time.”

Brown visibly bristles when asked about news reports that more capable gear is intentionally being kept from the troops. That’s flat-out wrong, he said, and shakes the confidence of soldiers in harm’s way.

“I want to assure the American public, the soldiers and their families that they have the best equipment when and where they need it,” he said. “If there were something better, we would buy it, and we’re always looking for something better.”

-ends-

I was just reading about this stuff, recently. Looks interesting.