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Think... Before You Post...  FIVE TIGERS |
Shelach - שלח : "Send thou"
Torah : Numbers 13:1-15:41 Haftarah : Joshua 2:1-24 Gospel : John 7, 8 The Law and the Gentiles Thought for the Week Our Master Yeshua kept all the commandments. If we desire to imitate Him in discipleship, it would behoove us to walk in obedience to the same laws that He did. A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher. (Luke 6:40) Commentary There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you. (Numbers 15:16) The Torah says there is to be only one law for both Jews and aliens sojourning with the Jewish people. Most Gentile Christians do not keep the Torah's ritual laws: Sabbaths, festivals, dietary laws and ritual symbols like wearing tassels, phylacteries, or putting up a mezuzah scroll on the doorpost. This does not mean that Gentile Christians are godless or even lawless. Jewish believers are certainly bound to keep the whole Torah, but Gentile believers have never felt bound to the Torah's external signs in the way that Jews are. After all, Jews should be Jews and Gentiles should be Gentiles. But does the Torah really make different laws for Jews and Gentiles? According to Numbers 15:15-16, there is to be only one law for both Jews and Gentiles: As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD. There is to be one Torah and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you. (Numbers 15:15-16) This seems simple enough. According to these verses, there is one law for both Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, Gentile believers should keep the whole Torah. One might suppose that the Gentile believers who were fellowshipping in the apostolic communities should fit into the category of "the alien who sojourns with you." When the apostles considered this question in Acts 15, they left the matter open. They gave the Gentile believers four minimum standards for fellowship within the Jewish synagogue communities, but they did not issue a mandate clarifying Gentile obligation to the whole Torah. The same open posture of Acts 15 seems to be reflected in the Didache. The Didache is allegedly a collection of apostolic instructions for Gentile believers. When discussing the question of how much Torah a Gentile is obligated to keep, the Didache recommends keeping all of it, but leaves the matter up to an individual's capacity: If you are able to bear all the yoke of the Lord [i.e., Torah], you will be perfect; but if you are not able, do as much as you are able to do. (Didache 6:2) The Didache agrees with Numbers 15:15-16. There is not supposed to be a different Torah for Gentile believers. The Gentile believers are not supposed to have a different type of worship or religion. There is only one Torah for God's people. The only question left open is to what extent the Gentile believer is obligated. At First Fruits of Zion we push the envelope and choose to err on the side of obedience to God. There is life and reward in God's commandments. The more we apply the commandments, the more life we experience. Therefore, we encourage all believers to "go all the way!" You can't go wrong by being too obedient to God. "Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps 127:1)  |
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Experienced Member |
Amen Tiger.
My pastor was explaining this very issue a couple of weeks ago. It was very clear from what he said that we ARE to follow The Torah. There has been much confusion in Christendom concerning The Torah. This confusion stems from the Greek translation in the New Testament which refers to The Torah as "The Law." For obvious reasons, the Grace of God through Jesus Christ, Christians do not feel obligated to follow The Law. However, in Hebrew, The Torah is not The Law, but rather It is The Path -- God's Path to Righteousness and Blessing, HIS way of doing and being right. BIG difference. We aren't forced to keep The Torah, but rather we CHOOSE to do so in principle as a tribute and worshipful offering of love and thanksgiving towards our Heavenly Father and His Goodness and Mercy towards us. Good stuff. |
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Member |
I do not choose to follow the Torah, as I choose not to follow the Koran, Joseph Smith's The Book Of Mormon, Anton LaVey's The Satanic Bible, the Hindu Vedas or Mary Baker Eddy's Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures. I choose to follow the teachings of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, as recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Some day, we will find out which of us was correct - but not in this world, but in the world to come.  |
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Experienced Member |
Ummm. . . The Torah IS part of the Bible, and I DID say "in principle." And I absolutely agree. However, I am not talking about keeping the minute details of ritual. My salvation is by Grace. I am talking about the principles behind it. Studying and understanding The Torah and The Talmud makes it MUCH more clear as to what the meaning of the teachings in The New Testament really are. Tiger knows the point I was making. . . I have no intention of making a mountain out of a molehill.  |
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Member |
I agree that the Torah is part of the Old Testament of the Bible, the history of what went on before Jesus Christ and the prophecies about him. But I look upon the Mosaic laws as what was necessary and needed prior to Jesus Christ's time on this earth. For Jesus said (Luke Chapter 16, Verse 16) The Mosaic laws were to be followed until John, but once Jesus began his ministry, the Kingdom of God is preached and the Mosaic laws are superseded. If an individual wishes to follow the Mosaic laws himself/herself after Jesus Christ preached the Kingdom of God, that is their business, but it is not a requirement and it is not mandatory for followers of Jesus Christ. To use a mundane political analogy, the citizens of the United States are not required to run the country under the laws of the Articles of Confederation once the Constitution was ratified. |
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Experienced Member |
Y'all are missing my point entirely. . . . all of the principles of The Torah reflect the Commandment to love God AND your neighbor as yourself. . . that was my point, and both ARE a requirement to enter the Kingdom of God.
Understanding the Jewish traditions reflected and explained by The Torah and the Talmud, the Jewish roots of Christianity, if you will, give a much deeper understanding of what happened and what was taught by The Messiah in The New Testament. Again, Tiger and I understand the context of each other's comments since we attend similar churches. My purpose was not to start a controversial theological discussion with anyone else. Good evening. |
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Think... Before You Post... FIVE TIGERS |
SgtSchaeffersMom the Torah/Pentetauch is the doctrine Yahshua taught...all is the same...its still in the Christian Scriptures... "Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps 127:1) |
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Think... Before You Post... FIVE TIGERS |
Torah/Pentetauch are the first five books of the Christian Scriptures...your choice Friend... "Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps 127:1) |
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Member |
SgtSchaeffersMom, So you hold the validity of the ORAL Torah as well? Because Jesus seem to have problem with that. Ixcatl |
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Member |
What about the prophets? Is that something he taught? Do you also follow the Talmud as SgtSchaeffersMom? Ixcatl |
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Think... Before You Post... FIVE TIGERS |
Shalom ixcatzin If the Talmud does not line up with the Tanauch, I follow the Tanauch… "Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps 127:1) |
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Member |
Hi Fightdirector, I think I’d tentatively agree with the generality of your post. However, it leaves wide open a void for the realization of the Great Commission. I realize this is a sensitive subject however; I’d like to clarify the stereotypical implied meaning to avoid misapplication or misunderstanding. If you disagree with my points, please don’t hesitate to question, so I can better clarify. Usually, when Christians speak of “the law” (Mosaic) they are referring to “legalism” or traditions devised by men – per se. However, many times this is misconstrued to broadly to include even the moral laws of God. Clearly, Paul tells us we are no longer under the law but under grace. However, Paul typically draws upon the morality in God’s law, especially so when rebuking a particular sin – for example the Church in Corinth. Paul isn’t attempting to use God’s law as a civil tool i.e. such & such sin begets a specific law-dictated consequence. Paul uses the morality taught in God’s law because these are His attributes – describing His Holiness per se, thus becoming a guide pointing us towards Christ. Christ fulfilled the law - this is the Grace we now enjoy. However, the law of God is not passed away in terms of our guide for living godly – holy lives. God’s law still guides us via grace to become holy even as He is holy by adhering to the morality taught by His law. There is probably a better way of saying it. I wanted to point it out because often folks speak of God’s law within a legalism context. Then wrongly associate the verse “no longer under law, but under grace” as some type of clause that also dismisses the morality of His laws still applicable by His Grace. Legalism is wrong because it seeks to justify by works. We are justified by faith in Christ. It is His finished work alone that secures our redemption. Yet, Paul reminds in Romans 6:1 “…shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!..” This beckons the question then, how should we then live..? Answer: by using God’s law as our guide working out our salvation daily through Grace becoming one with Him… Anyway that’s my quick spin to satisfy, or balance the call to live Godly lives, using God’s moral compass – while embracing Matt 5:17-20 and grateful of His Grace. Just a thought… man, I hope I said that right... |
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 "a seeker of the TRUTH always!" |
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Experienced Member |
When we speak of Torah we speak inevitably of the Mitzvot (Commandments), both positive (you shall ...) and the negative (don't you dare ...).
Question for Christians: Has there ever been a time in Christian history where there was a dispute about the "salvation through grace" vs. the need to do good deeds? I hope I said that correctly.  I'm curious because I've been told by some Christians that they don't need to "do anything" in order to be saved, or as a result of being saved. This opens up an obvious sticky wicket between Jews and Christians. I understand the difference, it's just that I can't imagine anyone with a relationship with God thinking they don't need to do "spiritual work" and deeds of lovingkindness. |
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Think... Before You Post... FIVE TIGERS |
Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:13-15 (in Context) Hebrews 9 (Whole Chapter) James 2:18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:17-19 (in Context) James 2 (Whole Chapter) James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? James 2:19-21 (in Context) James 2 (Whole Chapter) James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. James 2:25-26 (in Context) James 2 (Whole Chapter) "Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps 127:1) |
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Think... Before You Post... FIVE TIGERS |
And the privileges and blessings of the gospel.
Jesus Christ made peace by the sacrifice of himself; in every sense Christ was their Peace, the author, centre, and substance of their being at peace with God, and of their union with the Jewish believers in one church. Through the person, sacrifice, and mediation of Christ, sinners are allowed to draw near to God as a Father, and are brought with acceptance into his presence, with their worship and services, under the teaching of the Holy Spirit, as one with the Father and the Son. Christ purchased leave for us to come to God; and the Spirit gives a heart to come, and strength to come, and then grace to serve God acceptably. (Eph 2:19-22) Ephesians 2:14-22 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Result of search for "ordinances [1378]": 1379. dogmatizo dog-mat-id'-zo from 1378; to prescribe by statute, i.e. (reflexively) to submit to, ceremonially rule:--be subject to ordinances. ============================================================== In Col. 2:14, the apostle Paul wrote, speaking of Christ, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” Eph. 2:15 states, “Having abolished in His [Christ’s] flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of two one new man, so making peace.” At first glance, these verses do seem to indicate that the law of God has been abolished, but with a more careful study, we can see that this is not the case at all. The term “ordinances” is translated from the Greek word dogma, referring to human laws and decrees—“the commandments and doctrines of men” (Col. 2:22). Christ referred to such humanly-devised ordinances in Mark 7:6-9, when He stated, “Well has Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do…Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.” In verse 13, He stated, “Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which you have delivered: and many such like things do you.” While Christ’s sacrifice did do away with the need for animal sacrifices, as well as eliminating other physical, priestly duties and various other physical requirements (Heb. 7:12); also again notice Gal. 3:10-13, the “ordinances” referred to pharisaical decrees that restricted and burdened the Jews and certain ascetic, oppressive ordinances of “touch not, taste not, handle not” (verse 21) that had been bound on the Colossian Gentiles. READ MORE "Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps 127:1) |
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"Fides in Deus per Re****" |
Hello Arielski- good question.Many so-called Christians are guilty of what the Late radio-preacher Dr. J. Vernon McGee {Thru-The-Bible-Radio} used to call "Greasy-Grace"... Basically that is the idea that "I can do what I want to do as long as I say that "I Believe",,,"because Jesus died for my sins"... That is the WRONG answer! I'd recommend a very good book written by an Anglican in the 1800's J.C. Ryle-- The book is titled: "Holiness". EVERY Christian Church should have this book taught in Adult Sunday School class at least every 4 years. You can get it via one of the internet booksellers or a Christian book store in your town. Here are some verses from the New Testament that pertain to the topic with a link so that folks reading this but don't have a Bible nearby can click on and read the verses. { BTW- No, I do not think that we as mere humans can/ do/carry out/practice/ all the many Commandments found in the Bible 24 hours a day 7 days a week,,,because we are offspring of Adam and Eve. But we ARE expected to make an Effort.} Matthew chapter 5 verse 20 Matthew 5:48 Romans 6:1 1 Thessalonians 4:7 James Chapter 2 www.justbible.com |
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