Put 6 to 8 grains of rice perfectly end to end and regardless of one's location, age, or education, one of the first questions asked will be "who did this?".

All of the DNA in an adult human body could fit inside one ice cube.

Stretched out and joined end to end, it would reach from the earth to the sun and back again more than 400 times.

Scientists estimate that they could fill a 1,000-volume encyclopedia with the coded instructions in the DNA of a single human cell if the instructions could be translated to English.

My first vocation was in geology. When I find fantastic crystals or fossils I never asked "who did this"? I may ask 'how it formed' (what natural process brought this to be) or ‘how old is it’ but never did I think any intelligence might be up to it. Nature does a much better job than any humans can do, or any other ‘intelligence’ seen or unseen…. sort of. If that’s what you are getting at….. how come nature is so haphazard and mixed up. Why the disorder? (Is there a cancer gene? Who do we blame?)
So, what's you point?

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:
Put 6 to 8 grains of rice perfectly end to end and regardless of one's location, age, or education, one of the first questions asked will be "who did this?".

Take 6 to 8 grains of rice and toss them idly on a counter, and there is an infinitesimal chance that gravity, random breezes, microscopic flaws in the counter, and other factors will cause them to land perfectly end to end. Repeat the experiment billions or trillions of times, and at some point those odds will come up.

The odds are significantly increased if some natural factor encourages such a pattern, like a slight groove in the counter. The effects of such natural factors can be seen in the way gravity encourages the formation of stars and planets from relatively well-distributed raw hydrogen, and in the way natural selection encourages the development of more efficient (and often more complex) forms of life.

When we find an ancient structure deep and overgrown in the jungles of S. America, why do we wonder who built it?
Why is it not assumed by at least one scientist that "there is an infinitesimal chance that gravity, random breezes, microscopic flaws in the counter, and other factors will cause them to land perfectly end to end. Repeat the experiment billions or trillions of times, and at some point those odds will come up"?

No, we KNOW it was built by an intelligent creature. We even get particularily fascinated when it seems to align with cosmic events.

Hmmm, one cell in your body contains all the information to recreate you, yet it is unique to you only and there have been billions born before you with each a unique cell.

Does this sound like order? Has order ever been witnessed to come from chaos? Can nothing produce something? This "something" is some very complex structure folks.

You should give it deep and humble thought.

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:
When we find an ancient structure deep and overgrown in the jungles of S. America, why do we wonder who built it?
Why is it not assumed by at least one scientist that "there is an infinitesimal chance that gravity, random breezes, microscopic flaws in the counter, and other factors will cause them to land perfectly end to end. Repeat the experiment billions or trillions of times, and at some point those odds will come up"?

No, we KNOW it was built by an intelligent creature. We even get particularily fascinated when it seems to align with cosmic events.

Hmmm, one cell in your body contains all the information to recreate you, yet it is unique to you only and there have been billions born before you with each a unique cell.

Does this sound like order? Has order ever been witnessed to come from chaos? Can nothing produce something? This "something" is some very complex structure folks.

You should give it deep and humble thought.

I have. All the available evidence points me toward the conclusion that this is a perfectly natural process that is not, and never has been, guided by some supernatural entity.

quote:

I have. All the available evidence points me toward the conclusion that this is a perfectly natural process that is not, and never has been, guided by some supernatural entity.

perfect order out of the absolute chaos from a massive explosion?

quote:

perfect order

Sincle when it it in this state?

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:

quote:

I have. All the available evidence points me toward the conclusion that this is a perfectly natural process that is not, and never has been, guided by some supernatural entity.

perfect order out of the absolute chaos from a massive explosion?

What are you calling "Perfect order" and how would you recognize it as such?

quote:

What are you calling "Perfect order" and how would you recognize it as such?

Oh boy, you libs are something else.

Is science figuring out the order of things?

Look how hypocritical you libs are when the existence of God is approached.

You'll merrily type all day long about the conclusions of the sciences, which inccidentally always change, but you can also try to play another angle and ask what order?

Which is it, we hurtle through space and whatever happens tomorrow is just what tomorrow is, or can you set your watch to chime on the anniversery of your birth?

Which is it libs? You can't have it both ways.

There is either order or chaos!

>but you said "perfect order"<

Please bail out of this thread if this was your response.

You heretics can play along too btw.

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:
When we find an ancient structure deep and overgrown in the jungles of S. America, why do we wonder who built it?

Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation that covers all the evidence is most likely to be true. In the case of ancient ruins deep in the jungle, the simplest explanation is to assume human builders. We know there have been humans there, we know that humans are capable of such construction. Such an explanation requires no extraordinary assumptions. Note that some people DO leap to extraordinary explanations - they assume without proof that those ancient humans were not able to create such massive and complex structures, and they imagine a more advanced lost civilization, or even extraterrestrial help. Those assumptions are unnecessary to explain the observation - so they should not be made without additional evidence that requires them.

In the cases of the origins of the universe, the origins of life, or the development of different species (that's three entirely separate issues, mind you), there are many people who leap to the assumption that a supernatural being must have done the creating. That's not the simplest explanation, though. There are adequate and well-understood natural processes that serve to explain the last two, without the need for divine intervention. There is no requirement to bring in a divine creator to explain them, and no evidence that forces us to the assumption. If you want to make such an extraordinary claim, then you must provide the extraordinary evidence that supports it.

Yes, I left out the other case - the origin of the universe itself. That's not yet well understood. But "we don't know" is still not reason to assume "goddidit." As scientific knowledge has increased, a lot of things formerly attributed to deity now have purely natural explanations. Additionally, assuming that a divine creator caused the universe to come into being merely pushes the question back a step - how did the creator begin existing? If he could simply appear from nothing or exist eternally, then why not the universe?

As KJ noted, you're making a LOT of assumptions in your argument. You're assuming that DNA, cells, the universe, all represent perfect order. You assume that such order could not arise naturally. You assume that the scientific theory is that "nothing created something." All of these assumptions merely highlight your misunderstanding of the science and of reality itself. If the universe is in perfect order, why does it continue to change and develop? If DNA represents perfect order, why are there so many different versions? If you expect us to agree with your logic, you must first provide some support for those assumptions.

quote:

You assume that such order could not arise naturally.

Only a lunatic would believe anything other than man created those jungle structures.
But the most incomprehensiblly complex structures you say occur naturally? It is a natural occurrence for all of the cosmos to be held together with the most perfect balance of forces, but a couple of dozen blocks can't be naturally chiseled and stacked on each other in an arrangement that defies gravity?

April says: "The simplest explanation that covers all the evidence is most likely to be true. In the case of ancient ruins deep in the jungle, the simplest explanation is to assume human builders. We know there have been humans there, we know that humans are capable of such construction."

Imagine if science rolled with your "occam razor". They'd be like "umm Mr. BobApril, here at the three mile island community hospital, it is our policy to castrate men who have two headed babies. I hope you'll understand where we are coming from. The simplest explanation that covers all the evidence is there is something terribly wrong with your semen. Now place your ****** on the table please."

Libs? Another incorrect assumption! You really should quit while you're not too far behind there, soscorpio!

Oh, and you failed to address the question!

Total sidestep! FAIL!

There is NO perfect balance of forces; you're just too short-lived (and short-sighted) to recognize that any balance is only temporary and localized!

quote:

KJ1110

>but you said "perfect order"<

Please bail out of this thread if this was your response.

KJ!!!!!
you can't live up to the criteria, so you wish to de-rail the conversation. Get lost Brother.

If you are not 100 percent sure, then there is a chance that you are wrong and you are risking your eternal salvation by trusting in a wrong belief.

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:
Imagine if science rolled with your "occam razor". They'd be like "umm Mr. BobApril, here at the three mile island community hospital, it is our policy to castrate men who have two headed babies. I hope you'll understand where we are coming from. The simplest explanation that covers all the evidence is there is something terribly wrong with your semen. Now place your ****** on the table please."

As it turns out, science DOES roll with Occam's Razor. In your rather crass and silly example, however, you are conflating the explanation (that my semen might be damaged) with an action (castration). You are also stopping the explanation short of completion - a real scientist would be curious what caused the semen problem, check around for other people with the symptoms, and perhaps identify a radiation leak.

I think the real problem is that you lack any real understanding of the theories you are criticizing. In fact, you appear to lack any real understanding of science in general. You assume that because, to your untrained and rigid mind, something appears too complex for you to understand, that it must therefore be too complex for anyone else. That's not the case. There are scientists who have spent their whole lives learning and developing these theories, in strict accordance to the evidence - ALL the evidence they have found. They have not yet found any need to bring in a supernatural explanation. There are natural processes that make these "incomprehensiblly complex structures" not only comprehensible, but inevitable. Your claims otherwise are nothing more than a measure of your ignorance - and yet you appear eager to flaunt that ignorance for all to see. THAT'S the incomprehensible part.

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:

quote:

KJ1110

>but you said "perfect order"<

Please bail out of this thread if this was your response.

KJ!!!!!
you can't live up to the criteria, so you wish to de-rail the conversation. Get lost Brother.

If you are not 100 percent sure, then there is a chance that you are wrong and you are risking your eternal salvation by trusting in a wrong belief.

Oooooo!

Pascal's Wager! I'm so unnerved by the potential threat of oblivion.....NOT!

You repeat nebulous threats for all eternity when apparently, the imprecisions inherent within a mere millennium are beyond your grasp!

quote:

Originally posted by BobApril:

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:
Imagine if science rolled with your "occam razor". They'd be like "umm Mr. BobApril, here at the three mile island community hospital, it is our policy to castrate men who have two headed babies. I hope you'll understand where we are coming from. The simplest explanation that covers all the evidence is there is something terribly wrong with your semen. Now place your ****** on the table please."

As it turns out, science DOES roll with Occam's Razor. In your rather crass and silly example, however, you are conflating the explanation (that my semen might be damaged) with an action (castration). You are also stopping the explanation short of completion - a real scientist would be curious what caused the semen problem, check around for other people with the symptoms, and perhaps identify a radiation leak.

I think the real problem is that you lack any real understanding of the theories you are criticizing. In fact, you appear to lack any real understanding of science in general. You assume that because, to your untrained and rigid mind, something appears too complex for you to understand, that it must therefore be too complex for anyone else. That's not the case. There are scientists who have spent their whole lives learning and developing these theories, in strict accordance to the evidence - ALL the evidence they have found. They have not yet found any need to bring in a supernatural explanation. There are natural processes that make these "incomprehensiblly complex structures" not only comprehensible, but inevitable. Your claims otherwise are nothing more than a measure of your ignorance - and yet you appear eager to flaunt that ignorance for all to see. THAT'S the incomprehensible part.

All of this has been patiently explained to him many times in many such discussions over the last few years and, we're forced to choose between two conclusions; either he's congenitally and intellectually incapable (more likely unwilling) to accept any form of knowledge outside of his comfort zone or, he's trolling again!

I'm inclined to the latter as the former may sound like I'm casting aspersions!

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:

quote:

KJ1110

>but you said "perfect order"<

Please bail out of this thread if this was your response.

KJ!!!!!
you can't live up to the criteria, so you wish to de-rail the conversation. Get lost Brother.

If you are not 100 percent sure, then there is a chance that you are wrong and you are risking your eternal salvation by trusting in a wrong belief.

By-the-bye! I was quoting your use of the phrase "perfect order" from this post by you:

quote:

perfect order out of the absolute chaos from a massive explosion?

source within this thread

Perhaps you need to pay closer attention to what you have posted?

quote:

I think the real problem is that you lack any real understanding of the theories you are criticizing. In fact, you appear to lack any real understanding of science in general. You assume that because, to your untrained and rigid mind, something appears too complex for you to understand, that it must therefore be too complex for anyone else.

I like how liberals always use this line. "You're not smart enough to understand it". I'm paid to be scientific junior, I'm a statistician. You're wildly downplaying the complexities of everything within your eyesight. As my premise began: If you saw 8 grains of rice placed perfectly end-to-end, you and everyone else that encountered it would ask themselves: "I wonder who did that?"

There are scientists who have spent their whole lives learning and developing these theories, in strict accordance to the evidence - ALL the evidence they have found. They have not yet found any need to bring in a supernatural explanation.

Evolution may sound good but to rest your eternal soul on it is reckless. A great many scientists are believers. It's almost as if you are trying to outsmart the Creator.

Good luck Brother, I hope you continue to give it much thought. A just judge cannot commute your sentence or he would not be just. Our Creator replaced your sins with His Son, and if you do not love that gift, then you will pay the consequences of that decision. If someone had given their life for you, you would love them forever. Why do you foresake the Son?

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:
Evolution may sound good but to rest your eternal soul on it is reckless. A great many scientists are believers. It's almost as if you are trying to outsmart the Creator....Our Creator replaced your sins with His Son, and if you do not love that gift, then you will pay the consequences of that decision. If someone had given their life for you, you would love them forever. Why do you foresake the Son?

Ah, a couple points. First, you've been arguing that all this complexity and order are evidence for a creator. KJ and I dispute that, but let's grant it for the sake of argument. Now you've made this huge leap of logic to assume that this creator is indeed the Christian god. Where's the evidence, logical reasoning, or anything to support that? Even if there is a creator, why can't it be an uninvolved creator who left afterward and neither desires nor hears worship? Or the Islamic creator? The Jewish creator? The Goddess of the Wiccans? One of the hundreds of other possibilities?

Second, with so many possible answers to choose from, why are YOU risking YOUR eternal soul on such a slim chance? I quote Simpson's Rebuttal to your invocation of Pascal's Wager:

quote:

Originally formulated by Homer Simpson:
But Marge! What if it's the wrong god? We'd only be making him angrier and angrier every Sunday!

quote:

eternal soul

Such a dreamer....

quote:

Originally posted by billbright:

quote:

eternal soul

Such a dreamer....

Who wants to explain the "Celestial Teapot" this go-round?

I've done it too many times!

quote:

Originally posted by BobApril:

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:
Put 6 to 8 grains of rice perfectly end to end and regardless of one's location, age, or education, one of the first questions asked will be "who did this?".

Take 6 to 8 grains of rice and toss them idly on a counter, and there is an infinitesimal chance that gravity, random breezes, microscopic flaws in the counter, and other factors will cause them to land perfectly end to end. Repeat the experiment billions or trillions of times, and at some point those odds will come up.

The odds are significantly increased if some natural factor encourages such a pattern, like a slight groove in the counter. The effects of such natural factors can be seen in the way gravity encourages the formation of stars and planets from relatively well-distributed raw hydrogen, and in the way natural selection encourages the development of more efficient (and often more complex) forms of life.

I won a bet like this one time by saying that I could shake rice on a piece of paper and make it line up.



I folded the paper in half before I started so it formed a V.

I have to assume that you are talking about such prehistoric sites as Machu Pichu or Stonehenge. What inspired the builders to construct such things?

I had the unique opportunity this weekend to visit Malta (one of the benefits of serving in Germany) and had a chance to visit some prehistoric archeological sites in person. The Temple of Mnajdra and the site at Hagar Qim are two excellent megalithic sites that predated Christianity by some 6-8,000 years. The workmanship was amazing! The main entrance to Hagar Qim was oriented so that the rays of the sun were perfectly oriented in the direct center of the entranceway to the structure on the summer solstice. During the spring and fall equinoxes, the sun came in at a slightly different angle and directly entered a different chamber. This was all done by men without calculators, computers or any modern tools. It is absolutely fascinating to consider the things that they did with the lack of sophistication that we now enjoy. But was it perfect? The rocks were put into place with very primitive tools by using slaves. I’m going to assume that life as a primitive slave was not at all a pleasant experience. I’m also guessing that if a slave died during the process, his body was unceremoniously burned or hurled into the Med. The actual rituals that took place inside the structures were probably both good and bad. Animals were often sacrificed by priests or priestesses to appease the God(s). On a side note, why did people sacrifice animals? If God created animals, why would he be somehow pleased to watch his human followers needlessly and painfully kill one of his perfect creatures for his own appeasement? How does the needless suffering of a weaker creature somehow make one a good person in God’s eyes?

Fast forward to more modern times and modern Europe. When one walks through any of the magnificent cathedrals of Europe, it is difficult not to feel some sense of awe (I’m sure the same can be said for some of the mosques in Turkey).

But how does this in any way substantiate your beliefs that Christianity is the only true belief system? If people were creating religious temples well before Christ and worshipping according to their own devices, what does it say about them? How does the creation of these prehistoric structures equate to a deity supposedly offering his only son as sacrifice, and then putting stipulations upon people should they be reasonably skeptical about this? The same can be said for Islam, Mormonism, and just about any other belief system that requires belief in absolutes.

For the moment, I’m willing to settle for ‘I don’t know’. If there is a deity who decides to punish me for this, so be it, I’m afraid. Threats never made a good basis for a belief system for me.

"It is absolutely fascinating to consider the things that they did with the lack of sophistication that we now enjoy. "

I think in a lot of ways we've lost the sophistication that we had before computers, etc. It's too easy to let the computer, internet, or TV do the thinking for us today.

"[W]hy did people sacrifice animals?"

I think people put too much worry into the whole animal sacrifice thing. Ever been to a pig roast? So you make a ceremony about killing the pig, first. What's the big deal?

Human sacrifice is a little over the top, though; don't you think?

"But how does this in any way substantiate your beliefs that Christianity is the only true belief system? "

I guess it doesn't take much by way of substantiation for some folks, eh?

A.K. and Bill;

You bring up a great point and I have mentioned it before.

Abram was told to go to Canaan. Well when he finally got there and some of his tribesmen and families were captured he recaptured them and went to the King of the area, Melchizedek, "a mighty man of God" and gave hime the spoils of his victory.

Jesus Himself mentions wanting to be remembered as a priest, on the order of Melchizedek.

Almost none remember these passages but consider........If Abram(Abraham) is the father of our religions, How can Melchizedek have been a Mighty man of God before him?? Which by the way is 4350 years ago.

If one simply reads the book, instead of listenng to what others tell them what is in it, they would be far better off I believe!

There is so much there that is of this nature the world is older and more complicated than we can possibly understand!! So is God!!!

T

Hello AKinNC,

I think that you are listening to others and not investigating fr yourself. Let me elaborate below. Not that you should even listen to me.

LJ

quote:

Originally posted by AKinNC:
But how does this in any way substantiate your beliefs that Christianity is the only true belief system?

H'm. Not sure where you got the 'only true belief system'. From mys tudy and understanding, that is not a good definition of Christianity from a scriptural basis.

If people were creating religious temples well before Christ and worshipping according to their own devices, what does it say about them?
That there are many beliefs created by men. So a belief system that is based on God must be validated by God. What say you to this conceptual idea?

How does the creation of these prehistoric structures equate to a deity supposedly offering his only son as sacrifice, and then putting stipulations upon people should they be reasonably skeptical about this?
If you are speaking of Jesus, God's Son who was sent to save man from death and bring man to eternal life as God's children, then I think your understanding of what is recorded in scripture is flawed. You seem to be stating opinions of various religious teachers and not writing from a study of scripture.

The same can be said for Islam, Mormonism, and just about any other belief system that requires belief in absolutes.
I think this particular statement is flawed. Every belief system must stand or fall on its own based on a fair and balanced study. Lumping them all together is the beginning of prejudice and does not seem to be a good way of speaking or writing. By that is just my $0.02 and HO.

For the moment, I’m willing to settle for ‘I don’t know’.
This is actually a good position to be in. I will elaborate if you are interested.

If there is a deity who decides to punish me for this, so be it, I’m afraid.
According to my study, death is the ultimate destination of all humans. As far as I know, this is an absolute. I am not sure I would call it punishment unless you believe in the account of creation as written in Genesis by Moses.

For me, it would seem that my belief is about escaping the clutches of death and not about being punished with death. But again, this is just my $0.02 and HO.

Threats never made a good basis for a belief system for me.
I agree. I have never been threatened by my Father in Heaven. Not once. So I have nothing to say about your statement.

For the curious;

The last pages of the Bible have your answers RE: hell punishment and judgement.

"They also serve who have never heard my name."
Their deeds shall be written in the book of life and they shall be so judged."

Seems like everybodies gonna get a fair shake no matter what they believe.

After all a human being is just that....human and capable of error.....which is forgivable by the ultimate judge.

Just don't push your luck, it's not a good long term career move to pzzzz off God!!!

Posted with absolutely no grins or smileys used, inferred or intended!!!

T

That also says something about our society when we feel the need to add a disclaimer to an innocent post, doesn't it?