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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Religion In The Military An answer to a mass punishment question in scripture?|
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 "a seeker of the TRUTH always!" |
To Paul J my friend,
Just my notes on a scripture lesson that we are studying this week. It is long and I did not know why I was inspired to write it at the time. Who knew, God did IMHO. Sunday September 27, 2009 – The Ending question in the Lesson – Many folk are troubled by the Israelite destruction of these people (Amorites), and understandably so. Why, in cases such as this, in which there is much we don’t understand, do we simply need to go by faith, trusting in the goodness of God, who has revealed Himself to us in Jesus? John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? . Further study and understanding has led me to write down the following. Our Father’s nature and character is well recorded throughout scripture. Some of these are Holy, righteous, good, merciful, faithful and many, many more that each of us should study on our own. My study is not done to counter or justify anything about God. After I accepted Jesus as my personal savior, I was led to ask God for the desire of my heart. Like Moses, I asked for something that I now know to be very bold. At the time, I asked in innocence and love of God because He had sent His Holy Spirit to abide within me. So I asked God to understand His plan. I am not Moses and so have had some trepidation about this request since I first prayed about it. So as I read the ending question above I felt compelled to search the scriptures, as commanded by our Lord Jesus, and to write down what I found. The items below were revealed to me as a result of my study. 1. All living creatures on earth were once destroyed: In Genesis it is recorded that God was once so grieved in His heart as to destroy all mankind, which He had created. Scripture records that even though grieved, God gave people 120 years to avoid destruction. a. Genesis 6:3 - Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." b. Genesis 6:5 - The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. c. Genesis 6:7 - So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." d. Genesis 6:11-12 - Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 2. God does not destroy the worthy with the wicked: From the beginnings, scripture records that God recognizes and rescues those who are worthy or righteous in their ways, even when all around them is evil. When destruction is God’s judgment, God has always involved man in the process. a. Genesis 6:9 – This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. b. Genesis 6:13 – So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. c. Genesis 6:17-18 - I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. d. Genesis 7:1 - The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 3. The penalty for sin is and has always been death: A sacrifice, with blood, has always been required to clear away transgressions. This is because God’s original statement to Adam was that eating form the tree of knowledge of good and evil would result in death. So death is still the result of sin that was originally pronounced by God has not changed. It is important to remember that God does not lie or change as does a man. Although man’s evil has an effect on earth, God’s Word is trustworthy and can always be believed. a. Genesis 8:20-22 – Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. “As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.” b. Genesis 9:8-17 – Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.” And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.” So God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth.” 4. God’s does not and has never ignored sin and evil: God made a promise to Noah and a covenant with all living creatures. The prophets of God have made it known that there is an appointed time for judgment of the world. My study has revealed that until that time God has consistently and selectively removed evil or sinful people so that He will never again be so grieved as to destroy all living things on earth. I have not tried to document all occurrences, but have chosen a few because of they may be more familiar to many. Scripture has recorded God’s thoughts and His actions. So we are given clear understanding to have faith and trust in the goodness of God. His judgment is always justified and his punishment is always appropriate. When destruction is the punishment, God has always involved man in the process. First with Noah who for 120 years was a witness that God had decreed that man’s evilness was going to result in total destruction and then allowing Lot to warn his son-in-laws. Now the Lord had only promised to spare the city if 10 could be found that were righteous. But the Lord saved Lot, his wife and his daughters because He is merciful. a. Genesis 11:4-7 - Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth." But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. b. Genesis 13:13 - Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD. c. Genesis 18:17-33 - Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him." Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake." Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?" "If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it." Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?" He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it." Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?" He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there." Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?" He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it." Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?" He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it." When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home. d. Genesis 19:12-16 - The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it." So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking. With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished." When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them. e. Genesis 19:18-22 - But Lot said to them, "No, my lords, please! Your servant has found favor in your eyes, and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can't flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared." He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar). God is GOOD, all the time. All the time God is GOOD. As I studied this and wrote my finding down to share with others, it became obvious to me that my request to know God’s plan is authorized in scripture. God, Himself clearly stated that He would reveal His plans to Abraham so He could teach his children to obey God and remain righteous in their actions. This revelation has cleared up my feelings of trepidation for asking to understand God’s plans. So Moses is still out there alone in boldness. Written by: LJ (all4Truth) on September 28, 2009, 1:06 AM EDT. |
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Source: >>>http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html<<<
NOTE: I included the whole chapter so as not to be accused of taking this out of context.  What did the infants do that they deserved to be dashed to pieces? Did their unborn children also rebel against God; those same unborn children who died when their mothers got ripped up? When we execute a killer, do we throw his kids on his lap while he's in the electric chair? I thought "Jesus loves the little children....."? This is one possible example of mass punishment IMHO. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Paul_J, |
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While I was reading your last post, a weird question jumped in my head. I don't mean this as a distraction but the bible said that after the flood, Noah sacrificed some of the clean animals and birds. Which ones? How many did he sacrifice? Did that make that species extinct when he did that? Were they unicorns and rocs?
Just trying to keep it light.  Paul |
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“Which ones? How many did he sacrifice? Did that make that species extinct when he did that? Were they unicorns and rocs?” Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. One of every clean beast. One of every clean fowl. The clean animals were many. Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. “Were they unicorns and rocs?” Who cares. |
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Paul;
Go back and read the Bible again....I keep telling you that....... The animals suitable for sacrifice were brought aboard in groups of seven, at God's command. All others were two by two. T |
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"a seeker of the TRUTH always!" |
H'mmm, This is too easy Paul J, Read more carefully. God was pronouncing what would happen to them for turning away from the protection of the Lord. Scripture contains a lot of prophecy and descriptive phrases. Read Chapter 13 verse 9 very carefully. Then read on into chapter 14. I will give you the first verse below. 1: O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. I normally use biblegateway.com just because they have many translation to compare from. There are a about 10 actual sites if one wants to get the Hebrew and Greek directly. LJ |
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I have read, and here’s what I got: Argument for two of each kind: Genesis 6 19And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. 20Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. AND Genesis 7 8Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, 9There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. Argument for seven of clean:Genesis 7 2Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
Which is right? Possible contradiction? One possible scenario is: Maybe God had originally told Noah to take two by two (Gen 19-20). Later....GOD: (Thinks to Himself) “Hmmm, that might not work; ….(Aloud) Um …Noah…belay that last order, what I meant was 7 of the clean animals and 7 of the fowl and two of the unclean ones. (Gen 7:2-3) Can you remember that?” NOAH (hammering and sawing away at the Ark, and preoccupied): “Sure God…7 of the clean and fowl, 2 of the unclean, got it....” (to himself): "Now what did that boy do with my measure, darn it." Noah goes off to find one of his sons about the measure. But then when the time came to get the animals aboard, for some reason, he disobeyed and brought only 2 by 2. (Gen 7:8-9) Maybe he had told his sons to get two by two and when God changed the order, Noah forgot to tell his sons the change of plans. Big oops. Rains come down, flood, yadda yadda..... …..A few days later….. GOD: “Noah, I thought I told you 7 of the clean and 7 of the fowl.” NOAH: “Er……oops, …..I um …..I forgot. Sorry, God.” GOD: “Dang it, Noah!” Source: >>>http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/King-James-Version-KJV-Bible/<<<  |
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I'd say the unicorns and rocs cared. |
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 I agree D.J. |
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And that may be one of the differences between me and you (besides the presence of faith). You look at the overall. I am a nitpicky, anal, overly analytical, obsessive compulsive dude who looks at the fine print. (I know, it's annoying for me too sometimes, but it's what makes me good at my job here so i shouldn't complain.) So with your interpretation of "what would happen to them", and my nitpicky reading between the lines, it appears that God was threatening mass punishment but didn't actually do it. That is still unjust and unfair, IMHO. Next example of Mass Punishment: 1 Samuel 15 1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' Source: New International Version from >>>http://www.biblegateway.com/<<< Geez, a tad harsh don't you think? Even the infants? What'd they do sinful? Even the animals? What'd they do sinful? Well, going further down in 1 Samuel, it appears Saul disobeyed and didn't kill all of them like Samuel had said God had ordered. So Saul got in trouble with the Lord for not completely obeying His order of ........mass punishment. |
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"a seeker of the TRUTH always!" |
The Lord declared the punishment as a judgment against the Amalekites. Decided to use Israel as the instrument of that punishment and then this is what Samuel did. 1 Samuel 15:9-26 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves [b] and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed. 10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night. 12 Early in the morning Samuel got up and went to meet Saul, but he was told, "Saul has gone to Carmel. There he has set up a monument in his own honor and has turned and gone on down to Gilgal." 13 When Samuel reached him, Saul said, "The LORD bless you! I have carried out the LORD's instructions." 14 But Samuel said, "What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?" 15 Saul answered, "The soldiers brought them from the Amalekites; they spared the best of the sheep and cattle to sacrifice to the LORD your God, but we totally destroyed the rest." 16 "Stop!" Samuel said to Saul. "Let me tell you what the LORD said to me last night." "Tell me," Saul replied. 17 Samuel said, "Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The LORD anointed you king over Israel. 18 And he sent you on a mission, saying, 'Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.' 19 Why did you not obey the LORD ? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the LORD ?" 20 "But I did obey the LORD," Saul said. "I went on the mission the LORD assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. 21 The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the LORD your God at Gilgal." 22 But Samuel replied: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has rejected you as king." 24 Then Saul said to Samuel, "I have sinned. I violated the LORD's command and your instructions. I was afraid of the people and so I gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD." 26 But Samuel said to him, "I will not go back with you. You have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you as king over Israel!" Disobedience is an extreme violation to the Lord. What did Adam do in the Garden of Eden, disobeyed the Lord's simple instruction. Is is recorded in scripture that the Lord said they were wicked. In this case we were not given the description of their wickedness. Since I believe in God's judgment and have shown you that He knows how to spare the righteous out of the wicked. I trust that God knew something you or I do not know. Tell me something, when we are at war and we fire artillery at an enemy that may be fighting from a city, how do we make sure that innocents are not slain? YOu call it nitpicking because I posted a reply that showed that the scripture you selected showed a prediction and not an action. Why not be truthful and just say, I was right the example you used was in error. I have now agreed that this scripture was an example of complete punishment for a people. Judge rightly my open minded friend, LJ Larry |
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Yet more evidence that your God is not good.
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It doesn’t matter what imperfect men do in war. god is supposed to be perfect and therefore could very easily have conducted a precision, surgical strike on the Amalekites, taking out only the wicked. Instead he ordered ALL of them killed. Innocent kids and innocent animals too. Why? Trying to keep and open mind I came up with 6 possibilities: 1. Maybe Samuel lied to Saul. Maybe that message didn’t come from god, and Samuel was manipulating Saul for some unknown reasons? Makes one wonder, hmm? 2. Maybe a mistranslation in the bible. Maybe it was supposed to be all the wicked EXCEPT the children, animals, etc? 3. Maybe god is a mass murderer? 4. Maybe god was testing Saul, similar to when god told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? god was planning on stopping saul like he stopped Abraham but maybe he used the go-between again (Samuel) who couldn’t get thru to the front lines in time to stop the slaughter. Saul failed the obedience test anyway and in a bad way. It seems maybe he had no problem murdering innocent kids (which if he’d have disobeyed on that, I would have thought he was pretty cool) but instead he only spared some animals for war booty for his men possibly. Tsk tsk and For Shame! 5. Maybe god rationalized with himself saying that since the kids haven’t committed any sins yet, even though he'd ordered their deaths, they would come straight to heaven to be with him so it’s not really a punishment ….in a manner of speaking? Kind of like how the Taliban in the madrassas do when they brainwash young suicide bombers. When the kid asks "What about the innocent Afghans who are nearby the Americans, they’ll die too?" "Oh, yeah, but they’ll go straight to allah, so it’s okay to kill them." I call BS on that rationalization. A lot of terrorists are using these BS rationalizations these days to murder innocent men, women, and children ergo going against their Quran. I think it is a true horror and downright despicably, disgustingly evil no matter if it's attributed to yahweh, jesus, or allah. 6. Maybe whomever wrote 1 Samuel was excusing genocide and war atrocities by saying “Uh, god told us to do that. It was god’s fault, not ours." Meaning maybe man wrote the bible, inspired by god or not inspired by god (if he exists). We hear crap like this nowadays don’t we? Some psycho killer murders a bunch of people and claims that god told him to do it. Just like Osama bin Laden saying allah wants all Americans to die. Maybe the same thing back then, same bull crap. Man never changes. Always blaming the evil sh*t they do on their god. Frigging sad. I’m leaning more towards theory number 6.
No i said that I was nitpicking, not you. Anyway, you call it prediction, I call it a threat. Potato, potahto. When I was an MP, if I had a guy who had said what god said, I would have apprehended him for Communicating a Threat per the UCMJ. Meets all the elements of the crime as far as I can see. (I don’t have a Manual for Courts Martial handy so I’m not 100% sure on all the elements.). He said it the threat. He had motive to carry out the threat. He had opportunity to carry out the threat. He definitely had the ability to carry out the threat. I agree I was wrong in using Hosea 13 as an example of actual mass punishment. He did not carry out the threat, so therefore in that instance, he may only be guilty of the threat of mass punishment (Communicating A Threat, if he had been a member of the US military). As for every other place in the bible I was going to list about mass punishment, disease, plagues, slaughter, etc, I ain’t going to belabor the point, beating that dead horse and wasting your time and mine. Business is picking up for us on BAF lately (unfortunately), so I’m not going to have as much time as before. So I’ll just say this. I don't actually believe god is a mass murderer (if he exists). IMHO it could be that all the war, death, diseases, plagues, etc listed in the bible was just man’s way of trying to bring order to and makes sense of their world. So they blamed or attributed all these things to a god. Ancient people did not know about germs, viruses, etc so they did their best to explain these horrors, perceived injustices, etc to Yahweh, Jehovah, Jesus, Jupiter, Zeus, Odin, Ra, Allah, etc. Maybe god (if he exists) had very little to do with wars and other crap. Maybe he leaves it up to man to work things out for himself. Rather than sacrifice a goat to a god to prevent/cure disease, we learn medicine. Rather than sacrifice a virgin to ensure a good crop this year, we learn better agricultural techniques. Rather than blame a god when we go to war, we someday realize that war is evil and is usually about power and money, not religion; so we humans learn to compromise and live together in peace…..someday. Maybe that’s what god (if he exists) wants us to do: fix the crap ourselves, self-determination. Peace to you my friend, Paul J |
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Two by two, male and his female. So 14 of each clean and two of unclean. |
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Some of my Catholic friends can relate to that! |
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"a seeker of the TRUTH always!" |
Ouch, sharp jab to the point of the nose. LJ |
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"a seeker of the TRUTH always!" |
Hello Bladensburg, Easy statement to make with no other comment or justification. We used to call that sharpshooter in military briefing. Didn't bring anything positive to the planning process but just kind stood back and poked holes at whatever was being presented. This being a military discussion site, thought I would share from a military perspective. From a Christian perspective, you do not know my God and probably do not believe in Him. So your comments are very suspect without other background information. But maybe I misunderstood that he 'you' in your post is intended for me. But since it was just after my post, I made a calculated guess. The probability is high that your post was addressed to me. LJ |
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"a seeker of the TRUTH always!" |
Hi Paul J,
Remembering our agreement I have SNIPPED out certain items for no other reason than brevity.
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And you are correct in your assumption. IMHO it may be one of the biggest contradictions of the bible. God loves you but “He has the right to destroy you.” I love my dogs at home but I do not have the right to destroy them. A parent loves their children but he does not have the right to destroy them. I look at the bottom line, all else to me is BS, propaganda, slant, bias, hyperbole, exaggeration, etc, etc. If a god loved you, he would not destroy you. IMO Apparently he loved the Jews the most and destroyed some of his other children that he loved less, perhaps. Was this favoritism to the extreme?
So all intelligent critical scholars who have studied the scriptures in the past and come away with questions were not studying fairly or properly?
Exactly, I don’t agree with the decisions of god (if he existed)
And your use of the word prophecy may be improper in my belief. Suppose I tell a guy, give me your money or I will kick your butt; or get out of my face or I will beat you. Establishing a pre-condition for the pending violence does not necessarily disqualify the statement from being a threat. “Young man, if you don’t straighten up, I’m going to beat you within an inch of your life.” That is a threat, IMHO. I say apple, you say potato.
Not a statement, a possibility. Not irrational, just looking at it from a different angle. My viewpoint might be irrational to you, the same as your viewpoint may appear irrational to me. And that is one of the main points I’m making here. To me, the bible is not proof. Perhaps, IF you believe in god, and IF you believe in the bible, your faith will help you to explain any perceived inconsistencies in your bible……or in your Quran. Perhaps, you will be able to find ways around any problems in the bible because you believe. I guess you believe your book is a historical record. Said another way, maybe a person’s unyielding faith causes them to be blind to any other possible explanations. Whether that is good or bad for other people is not for me to judge. I reckon maybe for you it is good. For me, blind unquestioning faith is not so good. Just because someone took the time to write something down doesn't necessarily mean it is true. As an aside, did you know that some people use a pun when they call the bible, the "Buy-Bull". funny, huh? Analogy: Lisa and Bob have been married for 20 years. Lisa completely trusts, loves, and dotes on her husband, 100%. Bob is her entire life; she would be lost without him. One night, her best friend, Susan sees Bob making out with another woman and subsequently discovers Bob has been doing this for 20 years. Susan tells Lisa. At first, Lisa tries to excuse Bob’s behavior. When she can no longer do this, Lisa denies it, disbelieves Linda completely, shuns her and they are no longer friends. She will not accept any other possibility whatsoever because to do so, it would mean her marriage, her very life for the past 20 years has been a lie. She can not accept it and she won’t. Your belief does not necessarily make it true….....for others.....maybe only for yourself. My disbelief does not necessarily make it false....for others.....maybe only for myself.
And that’s what I’ve been saying: I don’t have that same belief as you. That is the difference. I am open to other possibilities, other explanations. Maybe we approach the scriptures from two completely different angles. I reckon, you read it with your faith and your desire to believe. That’s cool. I do not have a desire nor a need to believe. It doesn’t matter to me. I look at things skeptically. I consider several possibilities and don’t say for sure 100% that this or that is The Answer. Your answer could be right. I don’t know. But then again, one of my various possibilities could be right. Or something else entirely that neither of us has thought of. Maybe aliens from outer space?
No need to guess or try to think or try to learn anything, the bible will give you all the facts and answers you need. That’s what I do not accept and never will. When a book, publication or person says “We have all your answers, there is no other possibilities, we have the truth, no need to think for yourself, etc…..I get suspicious and leery. Sorry, that’s just me. I don’t believe anyone has “The Truth” and All the answers.
The zero you say I am batting is perhaps only in your eyes and that is to your credit (meaning I have not shaken your faith and that's cool.). For me however, the zero doesn’t exist because the batting doesn't exist. There is no competition. Perhaps you see this as a test of faith or fighting the good fight or whatever. that's cool,  it really it is. I can't say I challenge you to prove me wrong because I'm not saying any one thing is The Truth. I could say that you are batting 0 in so far as you have not proven the bible is true. Anyway, I am questioning for my own education, and this has helped me solidify my doubt and skepticism a bit more; and perhaps see things a bit more clearly. Besides, because of your faith, I doubt I would ever be able to prove you wrong to the point that you would actually see that you were wrong. It is not my desire to try to break your faith. Believe away and that is cool. But perhaps you already understand that maybe some people do not have, need, nor want that same kind of blind faith. It works for them and my questioning works for me.
I agree, faith is required. Like I’ve said a few times, that is the difference, you have it, I don’t. I used the 'god as a mass murderer' argument to illustrate the contradictions of a loving god. Meaning it is an example IMHO of yet another imperfection/inconsistency in the bible.
Nope, I’m not stating it nor am I claiming it, I’m merely saying it is a possibility, one of many. And yes, I am speculating because IMHO, that is also a possibility just as much as the possibility that you are right. Perhaps, the same can be said with the Quran and Islam. To me, it is a very obvious parallel. Mohammad received verifiable proof, recorded it and now I’m speculating "they dreamed it up or were trying to bring sense" to their world. To a Muslim, who has just as much faith in their ‘facts’ as you do in your ‘facts’, I am wrong and so are you. I think they can make the exact same arguments, rationalizations, engage in the same kind of apologetics as you have been doing to ‘prove’ their religion is the only true religion. To look at observable data using common sense, past experience, knowledge of human nature, laws of known science, etc and then to ponder the possibilities (not claiming things as undeniable facts) is, to me, a more unbiased, open-minded, rational process than proclaiming “The only possibility is that there is an invisible dude in the sky, there is no other possibility, there is no other truth than that. I am right and everyone else is wrong.” All I’ve been saying …or trying to say, is you could be right, but you could be wrong also. I am neither right nor wrong because I am not saying I have The Truth or any answer for that matter. So which man is better off, the man who knows The Truth (whether it's right or not), or the man who does not have any answers, only the questions?
But I agree wholeheartedly with the bible (and you) on the golden rule. Everything else is trivial Bull sh*t in comparison. Hope you had a good weekend my friend. Paul |
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I have made a cursory review of these threads on this subject here.
As a Christian myself I do not parse the scripture and accept it all. After reading from cover to cover of the KJV over a 7 month period. I can only surmise that "What is God's is God's". In other words who are we to question his creation and destruction at His own Will? What is man, than mere Vapor in the context of God's infinite knowledge. By Removing our limited knowledge and relying upon the Holy Spirit to guide you, more will be shown to you. |
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I agree with you.......IF you believe in that particular religion. If you don't then .....instead of "what is man than mere Vapor....." it could be turned around into "What is God than mere Vapor...." if you are an atheist. IMHO, Christians have the right to worship as they choose; Jews have that same right, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, buddhists, hindu, ancient norse, ancient greeks, etc, all have that same right...as long as it does not: 1. interfere in the rights of others, deny them their property, harm them (no human sacrifices), etc. 2. Does not violate any federal, state, municipal, etc laws. 3. attempt to impose soley religious laws upon the rest of the country. Again, IMHO. Peace, Paul J |
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No human knows as to what form God is in; as for me it does not matter. To me God is everywhere and lives inside this Christian's "heart." As to other Religons it is not a Christian's job to force their Religon on others. As to the military and religon, the mission is the objective and the objective is the protection of the U.S. Constituion and the Bill of Rights for the populace of these United States. What an individual practices as to religon is their own business as long as their religon does not violate the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. |
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Hoo Aah, sir. I'm with ya. |
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Hello Paul J (My Friend),
Please accept my apologies for being tardy in responding. I was away from the boards because of things outside my control. Great responses here and I ask that you indulge me as I respond in kind. LJ
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But if god always knows the future and the outcome, he knew Adam was going to disobey and he knew he was going to have to punish him. He knew he was going to have to flood the place. He knew that the jews would not do what they were told. Hell, he even knew Lucifer was going to turn into Satan (kinda like Anakin Skywalker turning into Darth Vader, huh?). he knew all this was going to happen but still he kept acting like things were going to be different than what he foresaw and man would prove him wrong, so he wouldn’t have to punish him. It just makes my head spin. Too much convoluted logic (or no logic at all). Too many questions. Too many things just do not make sense. Once I start peering into the depths of the bible or the quran, it all starts to unravel and the more I look, the more illogical things I find. At least in my logic, reasoning, and common sense (maybe mine is different from everyone elses'?)all religions seem to be totally illogical.
We give birth, we create a child. We as parents have the right, no the responsibility to punish our kids to make them better people and to ensure they learn. That punishment is not to kill them, though. God punishes one person by killing him and come judgment day, he is thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity. That, to me, is anything but love.
The Jews were the chosen ones. This to me is one of the biggest arguments against the judeo-christian religion. The jews were oppressed, they create and or modify an existing Egyptian myth to favor themselves, while they’re in Babylon, it gets modified a tad bit. This god is a harsh being similar to the desert environment in which they live. Yadda, yadda. I read a book a while back (sorry, I can’t remember the name of it of the top of my head) but it presented an interesting hypothesis about the personalities of different gods and myths in that they were products of their environments. Any way, it would seem to me that a supreme being as powerful as god would not be so petty as to play politics and get so involved in the affairs of man like he did for the jews.
No, he didn’t say watch out, a CAR might hit you (or something similar) he said He was going to be that car who was going to hit you, He was going to drag you underneath Himself, He was going to make your head and brains get spread all over the road and He was going to mess up your designer jeans…..not a car. This was a threat, not a warning, not a prophecy, not a prediction.
Actually one argument is related to the other. There are errors in this record so it leads me to believe it is conceived and written by fallible man, not a perfect god, therefore it is not proof of an infallible perfect god. It is merely proof (to me) that a religion/myth exists or existed. That is all.
That’s cool. And I admire that….. in some ways.
Many do not, however. This is unfortunate.
One of the things I was trying to point out is the bible says different things to different people based off of their interpretations. I’m sure you have seen this evidence throughout history, yes and even today? Even in the NT there is different beliefs, different opinions, different views, different ANSWERS for different people. People come up with different possibilities of what god or jesus meant…or paul meant or matthew, etc. The other thing I was trying to point out is I prefer to come up with possibilities and not have a preacher or one book or one anything tell me this IS the answer. I do not look at something (or try not to) at only one angle. I analyze. When things don’t make sense, I question. The only two fields I know of which have The Answer 100% of the time are: math and religion. Everything else is theory. And religion only claims to have The Answer. A mathematician can prove to me that 2 and 2 is 4. A preacher can’t prove to me that god exists.
Cool, thanks. While I am totally against a Muslim or Christian or whomever forcing their faith on me, by the same token I shouldn’t be a hypocrite and force my LACK of faith on them. I try to be careful not to do that or give the impression that I’m doing that. I think it would be wrong.
Nope, I’m not saying since he is perfect he shouldn’t judge. I’m saying if he’s a loving god, he shouldn’t kill what he loves. (What’s that song, “You always hurt the ones you love.”?)
Islam says that Allah is the god of Abraham, Isaac, etc. Islam also has Adam, Eve, Satan, Moses, Noah, Mary, Jesus, etc. So you at least partially believe in Islam. Can you tell me how you know the Quran is wrong and the bible is right? I would love to have a Christian scholar debate an Islamic scholar. (peacefully)
I have not received proof. Also is it faith based on fact……or fact based on faith?
I think you could be right. Who knows.
(I love to study, unfortunately although I enjoy debating on this particular thread, the other ones I’ve been debating are much easier and require much, much less time to rebut since I don't have to study. I admit, I have to study, work hard, and spend a lot more time to debate you. (not trying to blow smoke and don't let it go to your head ) and lately our workload has not allowed too much time for me to study anything but...stuff related to my job.i figger we can debate til the cows come home and never solve anything. We both look at it from completely different angles and probably always will......potato-potahto thing again...or faith-no faith kinda thing.
I’m sorry to hear that. Yes, “this too shall pass”. (Look at it this way, I had a run of extremely bad luck a few years ago and it was the worst time of my life. But as a direct result of two very bad things, I got something really awesome in return. If it hadn’t been for the bad, I would not have received the good.) Anyway, it’s been kinda bad (and busy in a bad way) over here lately, too. Too many Fallen Comrade Ceremonies. |
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If you read carefully you will find that Noah did NOT take just 2 of every animal. If I remember correctly he took 7 each of certain animals. |
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Look higher up on this thread. It was already covered. |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Religion In The Military An answer to a mass punishment question in scripture?
