In many of my conversations here and elsewhere, it's clear that a lot of the prejudices against Pagans stems from a profound misunderstanding based on media imagery, fairy tales (literally), and even the things people are told by their religious leaders. I think some of this needs to change.

It's against my nature to preach or proselytize beliefs. I have no underlying motivation to convert anyone. This thread is for the purpose of EXPLANATION. It's for debunking myths, explaining beliefs, outlining actual practices, and even explaining WHY Pagans believe as they do.

If you are here to argue against Paganism and issue condemnations based on your religion, you're on the wrong thread, and I'll flag you faster than you can pout. If you're here to ask questions, please, ask anything you wish.

Let's get started.

Paganism is an umbrella term covering a large number of religions, some ancient and some relatively modern. The term does NOT mean "devil-worshipper" or any of the other ridiculous things people have said it means. Here's the actual meaning, AND etymology of the word:

quote:

c.1375, from L.L. paganus "pagan," in classical L. "villager, rustic, civilian," from pagus "rural district," originally "district limited by markers," thus related to pangere "to fix, fasten," from PIE base *pag- "to fix" (see pact). Religious sense is often said to derive from conservative rural adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns and cities; but the word in this sense predates that period in Church history, and it is more likely derived from the use of paganus in Roman military jargon for "civilian, incompetent soldier," which Christians (Tertullian, c.202; Augustine) picked up with the military imagery of the early Church (e.g. milites "soldier of Christ," etc.). Applied to modern pantheists and nature-worshippers from 1908. Paganism is attested from 1433.

Pagans, quite simply, are those who follow the religion and ways of the "rural" people or the "common folk." It became a term of condemnation by the Christian armies that tried to force conversion at sword-point. Today, people who are reclaiming the old ways and a nature-based spirituality have also reclaimed the word.

To whom does it apply?

1. Wiccans (modern composite Pagan religion), Druids (Celtic), Heathens (Norse), and also those few who follow the Greek or Roman Pantheons.
2. "New Age" spiritualists sometimes put themselves under the Pagan umbrella.
3. SOME people consider Hinduism, Native American beliefs, and other aboriginal beliefs to be Pagan religions.

To whom does it NOT apply?

1. Satanists. Satan is a Judeo-Christian figure and does not appear in ANY Pagan religion. Satanism is more closely related to Christianity than Pagan religions.
2. Kabbalah. Although based in the mystical, this is also based in the Judeo-Christian tree of religions.
3. Agnostics and atheists. Agnostics have no religion, and atheists do not believe in ANY deity. Pagans believe in at least one deity, possibly many.

What do Pagans believe? That's like asking "What do monotheists and trinitarians believe?" Every branch is different. However, here are some core components that apply to MANY Pagans (but not all):

1. A belief in a higher power. This may be one deity or many. Some believe that there are many "faces" of God, and that these different manifestations are all ASPECTS of something infinite and eternal that can not be comprehended. Some traditions call that highest power the "One." Some see the One manifested as two major aspects: The God and the Goddess, male and female. Some believe in many deities, all of which are separate and not part of one single higher power. Those are the polytheists. Some believe that ALL Gods are legitimate faces of the divine - the pantheists. Some believe in many gods, but focus on only one as a Patron deity. Many pagans honor mythologies that are not their own, and pay respect to deities that do not belong to their particular system.

2. The higher power is manifested in nature. Nature is NOT A GOD, but is symbolic of the higher power. Truth is seen in the cycles and balance of nature. A rock, a tree, a mountain, or an ocean may be powerfully symbolic, and may be honored as a spiritual gift, but those objects are NOT worshipped in most modern pagan practices. (Some ancient tribes and cultures believed that mountains were Gods, or that Gods lived on mountaintops. Mount Everest was revered in such a way for thousands of years.)

3. Many Pagans honor the four symbolic elements of earth, air, water, and fire. Remember, honor is not worship. The elements are recognized as both spiritual and physical gifts, each with symbolic meanings.

4. Some Pagans believe in an afterlife, such as Valhalla, or the Summerlands. Some believe in Reincarnation. Some believe that your energy simply flows back into the universe.

5. Many Pagans see wisdom as coming from many sources, but feel that no source has the absolute truth.

6. Some Pagans are reconstructionists, trying recreate ancient traditions as closely as possible. Some are okay taking what is known of the old ways and giving a new twist to it. Some combine traditions. Some create traditions.

7. Pagan religions are not "anti-Christian." They're not anti-anything. They are what they are. The entire world view is different than the world views of the Judeo-Christian religions.


Now, some of the myths. Here are things that modern Pagans DON'T DO:

1. Pagans do not do animal sacrifices. In fact, many that I know are vegetarians and vegans.

2. Pagans do not eat children. Seriously, I've heard that accusation, and it's just sick.

3. Pagans do not inflict self-harm.

4. Pagans do not make blood sacrifices.


And one commentary:

I've heard people make accusations of "black magic" and cults. I want people to remember that cults have formed out of every religion in history. Cruelty and maliciousness have come from every religion in history. There are Christian cult groups that participate in a practice called "Imprecatory Prayer," in which prayer is intended to attack a person or group. That's black magic. Hell, the Branch Davidians were a Christian cult, basing their beliefs in the book of Revelations. And yes, there are Pagan individuals and groups that do malicious things. They exist, they're bad, and they're not affiliated with the vast majority of pagans. So, are all Pagans "good?" No. But not all "Christians" are good, nor all the people who subscribe to ANY religion.


Here are some topics I will cover in upcoming posts:

1. The Wiccan Rede: "Do what ye will, but harm none."
2. Rituals: What are they?
3. Pagans in modern life.

And, of course, feel free to ask questions.

How did you get involved with paganism?

How do you know the pagan god is the true god?

What texts support the existence of this god, and when were they wrote??

Why are paganists in history associated with collectivisms such as marxism?

I actually once met a soldier guy who had "druid" I think, on his dog tags. I consider myself something of an unorthodox Christian and I had no problem with it. Druidism, at least in it's form in Ireland was often wrongly portrayed as being some evil practice.

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:
How did you get involved with paganism?

This thread is about Pagan religions, NOT about me. I'll humor you this time.

I began researching Native American beliefs, which led me to research other ancient traditions.

quote:

How do you know the pagan god is the true god?

Did you not read my post? Very few Pagans believe that any one particular form of God is the "true God," as opposed to another God being a False God. They don't have this strange "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality that Christians seem to be obsessed with. Please try reading the original post before asking such silly questions.

quote:

What texts support the existence of this god, and when were they wrote??

Many ancient texts were destroyed by invading Christian armies.

In my tradition, stories were handed down in a carefully memorized oral tradition. Putting sacred text on paper was practically blasphemy.

Many other traditions have extensive stories recorded in scrolls and libraries. And again, did you bother to note that this isn't about one specific god-form? And this is not about one specific religion? This is a discussion about MANY RELIGIONS that generally fall under one category. I don't believe the exact same thing as every other pagan; that idea is just stupid. However, very few pagans believe that anyone has all the answers, and so generally they are very accepting of other ideas and wisdom from other sources.

quote:

Why are paganists in history associated with collectivisms such as marxism?

Wow, that's a ridiculous question. First, there's no such word as "paganists," any more than you're a "Christianist." Second, Marxism was a non-theistic philosophy. Third, plenty of Christians set up communes and such.

Tell me, which pagan groups do you believe are associated with Marxism? I'm unaware of that association.

quote:

Originally posted by ReconTeam:
I actually once met a soldier guy who had "druid" I think, on his dog tags. I consider myself something of an unorthodox Christian and I had no problem with it. Druidism, at least in it's form in Ireland was often wrongly portrayed as being some evil practice.

It was portrayed as evil by the invading Christian armies that wanted to destroy the old traditions. Celts, being very clever, managed to blend the old traditions with the new to avoid having them annihilated completely.

Settle down WP.

I often have read paganism and marxism seem to work well together to guide mankind into the hands of those in power.

" A top spokesperson for neo-pagan and secular environmentalism, dissident Catholic priest Thomas Berry, contends that Christianity promotes a "deep cultural pathology of human greed and addiction." In his own words, "the world is being called to a new post-denominational, even post Christian, belief system that sees the earth as a living being -- mythologically, as Gaia, Mother Earth -- with mankind as her consciousness."1

Today's neo-pagans and secularists pick and choose religious beliefs, doctrines, and practices - mixing and matching them much as they would select food in a cafeteria. Taken together, paganism and secularism become a kind of do-it-yourself, cafeteria-style spirituality without religion or without God. Too often this results in the worship of self and nature (matter/energy). Yet, some neo-pagans continue to identify themselves as Christian and Catholic.

Neo-pagan and secular environmentalists often align themselves with socialists, communists, and Marxists to promote a planetary environmental socialism or Marxism. This is despite the fact that some of the world's worst environmental disasters occurred under these types of political systems. Critics charge that these political groups are using the environmental movement as a front to advance their political agendas. For example, Leonardo Boff, a former Catholic priest, Marxist, and liberation theologian, now promotes ecology and environmental justice. Another example is Mikhail Gorbachev, Marxist and former communist dictator, who is now the President of Green Cross International. The Earth Charter is a product of these secular, neo-pagan, and Marxist beliefs."

Hi WP,
Thanks for sharing! My question is going to be a bit dumb, but, would religions such as the ones held by Aztecs, Incas, Mayans, would be consider Pagan as well? I once read the Chilam Balam and found it quite interesting.
Cheers,
Ixcatl

quote:

Originally posted by ixcatzin:
Hi WP,
Thanks for sharing! My question is going to be a bit dumb, but, would religions such as the ones held by Aztecs, Incas, Mayans, would be consider Pagan as well? I once read the Chilam Balam and found it quite interesting.
Cheers,
Ixcatl

By common definition, yes.
Pagan generally refers to any non monotheistic religion, especially one practiced by "savages".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by soscorpio:
Settle down WP.

I often have read paganism and marxism seem to work well together to guide mankind into the hands of those in power.

Didn't pagans predate Marxism by a few thousand years? And, if I am not mistaken, Christianity did a great job of guiding mankind into the hands of those in power, starting with Rome in the 4th Century until the dominant Christian cult brought the whole thing down (except for the eastern Roman Empire that died at the hands of the other hostile monotheists.) By the way, Marx borrowed (plagiarized) his idea of "communism" from the early Christians. "Each according to his need", very Jesus like. See the first few chapters of Acts. After all, early Christians did describe themselves as "koinonia" (Greek for 'common') or "communalists/community"

Whirled_Peas, I am glad you started this thread, I was thinking of something similar to show how some of the basic tenants of various belief systems are the same, much like the Wiccan Reade's ,"Do what ye will but harm none" and the assertion that what one does comes back three times over to the practicioner asserted in many books on pagan religions, which correspondes closely with "Do unto others as ye would have them do unto thee" that is expressed in several beliefs(The Golden Rule).

What amazes me is the number of misconceptions regarding Wicca that I have seen. When in truth, while we may worship differant dieties, the meassage remains the same, respect and love.

As far as "Black Magic" goes, that too is something that transcends religions of all kinds. From the curse tablets of ancient Persia and Greece, to the prayers left behind by some Christian groups and people, all the way to modern times where not too long ago a person was expelled from a school and facing a court case for putting a "hex" on a teacher.

People may not like to admit it, but there is far more in the various belief systems used by humans to unite people than to divide them, but alas, we seem to not see the forest because of the trees...

I will add this, anyone wanting a fairly easy to understand guide on Wicca should take a look at the works of Silver RavenWolf, she may not speak for all Wiccans, but the basics are sound and laid out in a manner even the least faithful and most cynical of critics can grasp and they are also expressed in a way to hold ones interest, and more knowledge is never a bad thing.

quote:

Didn't pagans predate Marxism by a few thousand years? And, if I am not mistaken, Christianity did a great job of guiding mankind into the hands of those in power, starting with Rome in the 4th Century until the dominant Christian cult brought the whole thing down (except for the eastern Roman Empire that died at the hands of the other hostile monotheists.) By the way, Marx borrowed (plagiarized) plagarized? how about relating an evil to a truth, so the masses will "bite the bait".his idea of "communism" from the early Christians. "Each according to his need", very Jesus like. See the first few chapters of Acts. After all, early Christians did describe themselves as "koinonia" (Greek for 'common') or "communalists/community"sure bud, whatever you say. So, Christians advocate stealing from each other? For the greater good, right?

instead of hijacking this thread too, start a "why I hate Chritianity" thread.

Sorry WP, I am actually curious about the link between Pagans and marxists among other interesting aspects of paganism.

good post, WP.

Two things though,
1. Pantheism, as I and other pantheists generally view it, many times does not include a beleif in a personification of divinity, but rather what you included in your next paragraph about divinity being inherent in nature.

2. Animal sacrifice- A while back, I was involved in an African Traditional Religion that included animal sacrifice in Ocha, an initiation into priesthood. However, the animals were treated well leading up to the ceremony, sacrificed in a way to be as quick and painless as possible, and used for food afterwords. (I helped prep one of the hens for cooking. Was pretty tasty. ) I would definitely consider the group pagan, but in general, animal sacrifice is confined to a handful of traditions.

quote:

Originally posted by ixcatzin:
Hi WP,
Thanks for sharing! My question is going to be a bit dumb, but, would religions such as the ones held by Aztecs, Incas, Mayans, would be consider Pagan as well? I once read the Chilam Balam and found it quite interesting.
Cheers,
Ixcatl

They came from different branches of religious history, but just like Hinduism and Native American beliefs, SOME people would consider them Pagan, and some would put them in a different category altogether. Remember the original definition of the word: it basically meant "common folk." Pagan religions were "folk religions." They were passed down from a time long before the written word. Unlike the areas of the world that were deserts, where the climate lent itself to the preservation of parchment and animal skin scrolls, religions that originated in damper, colder climates didn't preserve writings as well, so the origins of these beliefs were often lost. Traditions were often passed down by telling stories around the hearth. Many Pagans refer to the individual Pagan paths as "hearth cultures."

There are no dumb questions if they're asked with an honest intent.

quote:

Originally posted by thorin001:

quote:

Originally posted by ixcatzin:
Hi WP,
Thanks for sharing! My question is going to be a bit dumb, but, would religions such as the ones held by Aztecs, Incas, Mayans, would be consider Pagan as well? I once read the Chilam Balam and found it quite interesting.
Cheers,
Ixcatl

By common definition, yes.
Pagan generally refers to any non monotheistic religion, especially one practiced by "savages".

The word 'savages' as in the European term? The Mayan culture is fascinating, their knowledge of Math and Astronomy is very interesting.
Cheers,

Ixcatl

quote:

Originally posted by Parapsycho:
good post, WP.

Two things though,
1. Pantheism, as I and other pantheists generally view it, many times does not include a beleif in a personification of divinity, but rather what you included in your next paragraph about divinity being inherent in nature.

2. Animal sacrifice- A while back, I was involved in an African Traditional Religion that included animal sacrifice in Ocha, an initiation into priesthood. However, the animals were treated well leading up to the ceremony, sacrificed in a way to be as quick and painless as possible, and used for food afterwords. (I helped prep one of the hens for cooking. Was pretty tasty. ) I would definitely consider the group pagan, but in general, animal sacrifice is confined to a handful of traditions.

It's true that animal sacrifice is still practiced in some Aboriginal-type traditions that haven't changed in thousands of years. It's like a living relic of the past.

A point to note though: The first several chapters of Leviticus include some VERY detailed descriptions of how to perform animal sacrifices. It was a very common tradition in ancient times and ancient cultures.

Just like modern Jews don't do that anymore (at least, not that I'm aware), the majority of modern Pagans have long since left that practice behind.

And, of course, if people are eating the animals and kill them humanely, it's not much different than the Whopper you ate at Burger King. In fact, Whopper-cow probably didn't have nearly as good of a life.


Oh, and soscorpio, I'm not ignoring you, but I have to go. I'm meeting a friend to help her get ready for her APFT, and I'm already late. Oops.

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:

quote:

Didn't pagans predate Marxism by a few thousand years? And, if I am not mistaken, Christianity did a great job of guiding mankind into the hands of those in power, starting with Rome in the 4th Century until the dominant Christian cult brought the whole thing down (except for the eastern Roman Empire that died at the hands of the other hostile monotheists.) By the way, Marx borrowed (plagiarized) plagarized? how about relating an evil to a truth, so the masses will "bite the bait".his idea of "communism" from the early Christians. "Each according to his need", very Jesus like. See the first few chapters of Acts. After all, early Christians did describe themselves as "koinonia" (Greek for 'common') or "communalists/community"sure bud, whatever you say. So, Christians advocate stealing from each other? For the greater good, right?

instead of hijacking this thread too, start a "why I hate Chritianity" thread.

You don't believe me? Go look it up, be more noble than those Thessalonians. Do I need to quote Acts for you? Early Christian lived communality. Prove they didn't. Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44 ALL the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.
Your ignorance of the Bible and Christian history is telling. You probably know more about the religions you despise than the one you claim to believe in. But then, it is easier to believe in Jesus than it is to believe Jesus.

Reducetension, not to sound like an arse, but this thread is for discussing Pagan Belief Systems, not the relationship of the early Christian church to the secular beliefs of Karl Marx, which while an interesting topic, does not fit here. Perhaps it should have its' own thread, no?

In regards to the topic, Whirled_Peas, if you could point me in the direction of a few more in depth authors on Pagan beliefs I would be most apperciative, Silver RavenWolf while a good baseline, does not go as in depth as I would like and as you pointed out in another thread.

quote:

Originally posted by MM2_ss_Lewis:
Reducetension, not to sound like an arse, but this thread is for discussing Pagan Belief Systems, not the relationship of the early Christian church to the secular beliefs of Karl Marx, which while an interesting topic, does not fit here. Perhaps it should have its' own thread, no?

In regards to the topic, Whirled_Peas, if you could point me in the direction of a few more in depth authors on Pagan beliefs I would be most apperciative, Silver RavenWolf while a good baseline, does not go as in depth as I would like and as you pointed out in another thread.

I thought I was defending Pagans from the insinuation they are Marxist/communists and pointing out the real "communist" were early Christians (who were also considered to be Pagan by the Romans and Jews.) But, guess I was mistaken. Sorry.

I fully realize that, and apperciate it to some degree. However I also think you might be able to get a very good debate going on the common points of the early christian church and marxist doctrine. No apology was needed my friend.

quote:

Originally posted by MM2_ss_Lewis:
Reducetension, not to sound like an arse, but this thread is for discussing Pagan Belief Systems, not the relationship of the early Christian church to the secular beliefs of Karl Marx, which while an interesting topic, does not fit here. Perhaps it should have its' own thread, no?

Thank you. I'd really like to keep this thread on-track. We've had plenty of threads arguing "This religion is good, that religion is evil. This religion did bad things, that religion did worse things." That's not what I want for this thread.

The intent of this thread is to answer people's questions about modern Pagan religions so that people have an understanding of what it's really about. I admit, I almost slipped into the other mode, and I'll try not to let that happen again. This is an information thread, not a debate thread.

If anyone wants to talk about Christianity or politics (communism, whatever), then take it to another thread. There's plenty of opportunity to debate, but this is so that people can at least have an understanding of this topic.

quote:

In regards to the topic, Whirled_Peas, if you could point me in the direction of a few more in depth authors on Pagan beliefs I would be most apperciative, Silver RavenWolf while a good baseline, does not go as in depth as I would like and as you pointed out in another thread.

I'd recommend Scott Cunningham's books as the next step up. Start with "Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner" and its follow-up book, "Living Wicca: A Further Guide for the Solitary Practitioner." Again, it's Wicca, but it's a bit better, I feel, than Ravenwolf's stuff. Also, Cunningham has many good reference books. I like his "Encyclopedia of Magical Herbs," which not only gives magical and symbolic uses of hundreds of plants, but also medicinal uses. Great reference guide.

Next, read "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler. It's got a lot of history and explanation, which is right up your alley. A bit thicker, a bit more academic.

I'm a Druid, which is a Pagan path that is a bit less understood and a bit harder to pin down. Different groups of Druids have different takes on it. Some try to be "reconstructionists," in an attempt to re-create the old Druidic order. Others take inspiration from what we know of the ancient Druids and then BUILD on that. Others simply use Celtic culture as a base. Modern Wicca has a good portion of its system based in the Celtic ways, so some of what you read would seem to be similar, and that's not a bad thing. I'm not completely happy with any of the individual Druid books I've read, but I take a little bit from each one and try to piece it together. I've not found any single book that is a perfect starting point, but I'd say "The Celtic Druids' Year" by John King is as good a starting point as possible. It's got a decent outline and is quite informative, including history and timelines. I enjoyed "Exploring Celtic Druidism" by Sirona Knight. And if you see how different those two books are, you can imagine how different individual Druids and Druidic groups also are. Someone would also be likely to recommend "The 21 Lessons of Merlin." If you do read it, read it like a legend with bits of inspiration and fact mixed in. It's a rather fun read, but more whimsical than practical, although each appendix after each chapter has some solid stuff.

I can't recommend much for the other pagan paths because I haven't read about them as much. I've mostly learned about the other paths directly from people who follow those paths, which really is the best way to learn if you can. I learned Buddhism from a very wise Buddhist man, not a book. The books I read were a supplement.

Let me know what you think.

Many thanks. I have read the 21 Lessons of Merlin and the follow up to it. One you may like to consider is "By Oak, Ash, and Thorn" by D. J. Conway. I found it very insightful on some of the legendary aspects.

Fortunately we got a Barnes and Noble that just opened and I got a little cash on hand so I'll be heading out there tomorrow.

Quick edit: If I happen to come across a table of basic beliefs and tenants I'll post my findings, otherwise I'll do my poor best effort to show some of the inter-relations on moral and ethical behaviors shared by some of the common belief systems out there.

quote:

Originally posted by MM2_ss_Lewis:
Many thanks. I have read the 21 Lessons of Merlin and the follow up to it. One you may like to consider is "By Oak, Ash, and Thorn" by D. J. Conway. I found it very insightful on some of the legendary aspects.

That's on my reading list, and I haven't gotten to it yet. I'll bump it up and read it next!

And yes, I've got the follow-up to the 21 Lessons as well. I enjoyed reading them, and they definitely let you immerse yourself in the imagery, but they're actually quite controversial between Druid communities.

quote:

Fortunately we got a Barnes and Noble that just opened and I got a little cash on hand so I'll be heading out there tomorrow.

Quick edit: If I happen to come across a table of basic beliefs and tenants I'll post my findings, otherwise I'll do my poor best effort to show some of the inter-relations on moral and ethical behaviors shared by some of the common belief systems out there.

I've seen some comparative charts and tables before, but I have no idea where I've seen them. I'd definitely like to see them if you find any.

Have you read "The Druidry Handbook" by John Michael Greer? He's the head of the Ancient Order of Druids in America. I joined the AODA earlier this year, but will probably wait until I have a place of my own to really start working on my First Degree materials. I really like their philosophical approach to Druidry, and the way they have their curriculum set up.

Discussion topic #2:
Do what ye will, but harm none.

This line is going to be the focus of an entire post here because there's so much to it. It's a Wiccan concept, but is used by many modern pagans even if they aren't Wiccan. I'm Druid, and even I feel that the Wiccan Rede is a valuable rule.

If there was a Pagan "Commandment," this would be it. Most people try to claim that this means, "Do whatever you want, without restraint, as long as you don't physically hurt someone else." That interpretation is WRONG.

Let's take a look at what "harm none" really means.

First, what is "harm"? Yes, if you steal from someone, physically assault someone, or murder someone, that's harm, of course. But it also causes harm when you insult a person. It causes harm when you release toxic pollutants into the environment which make people sick or contaminate crops. It causes harm when you take more than you need, and others are left with none. It causes harm when you support an organization that perpetuates abuse (overseas sweatshop workers, child labor, unfair wages). It causes harm when you destroy ANYTHING needlessly. It causes harm when you denigrate a person to a sub-human status. It causes harm when you lie to people. It causes harm when you hinder the spiritual path of a person. It causes harm when you make a person feel worthless, and thereby hindering that person's confidence and ability to fully live. In all actions, if you live by the Wiccan Rede, you need to ensure that you are not causing harm to anyone else, whether spiritually, physically, or emotionally.

To whom does this apply? EVERYONE. The child working in the sweatshop in Taiwan, the homeless man living under a bridge, your neighbor, your spouse, your children, AND YOU. Yes, "harm none" means you can't do harm to yourself either.

How can you harm yourself? This isn't just about suicide or inflicting self-injury. While that's included, we're also talking about spiritual and emotional harm. We're talking about your health. If you eat french fries until you weigh 600 pounds, have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, heart disease, type-II diabetes, and can't move except to pick up the phone and order another pizza... you've harmed yourself. (You've also harmed those around you, if you think about it.) If you shut off your mind, never read, and never let yourself grow intellectually, you have done yourself harm. If you shut yourself off from the world and never interact with other people, you do yourself emotional and spiritual harm. You're stunting yourself. When you hurt others, you cause spiritual damage to yourself.

In short, this means that whatever choices and actions you make, if you follow the Wiccan Rede, you must be sure that you are not harming yourself or others in any way. Actions must be neutral or positive.

When you consider the fact that this can apply to ANY situation and EVERY person or living creature, then it's a very powerful and complex oath to follow.

quote:

When you consider the fact that this can apply to ANY situation and EVERY person or living creature, then it's a very powerful and complex oath to follow.

And if one doesn't follow, what are the consequences?

Failure to follow the tenants of ones faith assuming none of the laws of man are violated carries with it a price in guilt for one thing. A truly faithful person who willfully acts contrary to their beliefs is heavily penalized by the burden of guilt.

Then there is what some people refer to as the "Rule of Three" of "Law of Return", essentially, it says that whatever you do, is returned to you three times over. In short, it is karma as best I can tell. Like any belief system, it only works for the faithful as far as the deterent value is concerned.

quote:

In short, it is karma as best I can tell. Like any belief system, it only works for the faithful as far as the deterent value is concerned.

But many, destructive persons have harmed others with no apparent detrimental effects, as is shown by their continued ability and actions of harming others.

How can a pagan apprentice feel they are on the right path? What signs guide them if karma doesn't appear to work consistently or with any measurable justice?

Honostly, the way to know is by trusting in your heart and moral compass. Just the same as a Christian, Zen monk, Athiest, or any other person who actually wants to do the right thing.

To follow the guideline of do what ye will but harm none is something that requires you to think. You must consider what your actions will result in both to yourself and to others on many levels. Spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical. If your potential action will harm any of these in yourself or another person, then it is likely not right.

A hypothetical if you do not mind. I desire to help the poor, the thought is good greed? Now I move on to how, if I choose to donate my entire salary at the cost of not being able to provide food for my family and take care of them, then that would cause my family harm. If I decide to mug another person for the money to donate, that would cause that person harm. Thus both of those extremes are wrong. If I donate a more modest amount so that I can care for myself and my family, while having a benefietcial effect on the poor, then that would be the right answer. These examples are rather extreme I confess, but I think they illustrate the spirit of the rule. The basic rule of Wicca is in essence the same as the Golden Rule.

You will know you are on the right path when you are honost with yourself at every level and put some heart and thought into your actions. Mind you my knowledge is very limited compared to many other people, say Whirled_Peas for example, I am just trying to pinch hit with the resources I have available from a more academic point of view. Also do note that I mentioned the qualifier that "If none of mans laws are violated" then it would be up to the law of return and karma alone, if you violate any of the laws of the land you face a whole nother set of issues beyond karma alone.

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Originally posted by soscorpio:

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In short, it is karma as best I can tell. Like any belief system, it only works for the faithful as far as the deterent value is concerned.

But many, destructive persons have harmed others with no apparent detrimental effects, as is shown by their continued ability and actions of harming others.

How can a pagan apprentice feel they are on the right path? What signs guide them if karma doesn't appear to work consistently or with any measurable justice?

And how many committed great evil in your god's name with no consequences? How can Christians feel that they are on the right path?

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And how many committed great evil in your god's name with no consequences? How can Christians feel that they are on the right path?

That's not a fair comment. Jesus harmed no one and in fact overthrew tyranny without a bloody revolution. Christians know there are consequences and all thoughts and motivations are known to the One true creator, but as was staed earlier - this is not about Christianity and those that cover their desires cloaked in it. The anti-christ will do the ultimate evils masquerading as a messiah, so it behooves us to know the real truth, so we don't commit sin arbitrarily.