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On Warning
20 Days
08/29/08
Fin

"Lakum deenukum waliya deen" To you be your Way, and to me mine (109:6)
Picture of Sgt_Salaam
Posted
I found this on the net on a message board. I don't know the author, but I believe it's a good hypothesis and a good start for debate.

quote:

Muhammad said he was a prophet, therefore we have two possibilities; either he said the truth, or he was a liar and an imposter. Only one of these 2 can be true.

Let’s 1st look at the hypothesis that he was a liar and an imposter, that he himself invented the Quran, and that even though he was illiterate.
First what was Muhammad’s interest to create a new religion? Until the age of 40, he lived a happy and comfortable life with his rich wife Khadija, he was loved and respected for his honesty and morality by all of his tribe. Why would he have gone through 10 years of persecutions, hardships and reject from most of his tribe, what was his interest in going through so much suffering and persevering in the transmission of his message?

Until the end of his mission, even when he ruled almost the whole of the Arabic peninsula (a territory about 5 times the size of France), he always lived in the most complete destitution, sleeping on a bed of dried leaves, without a castle nor a palace or anything resembling it, without a single bodyguard, wearing clothes repaired by himself, shoes repaired by himself… Why did this “imposter” never used all his power to acquire wealth, palaces and luxurious gardens like other kings and heads of states?
And if he only had created this religion in reaction to Jews and Christians as some have claimed, why would about half of the Prophets mentioned in the Quran would be …Jewish? Why does the Quran praise so much Mary the mother of Jesus, a Jewish woman, but never mentions Muhammad’s mother, nor any member of his family?
In order to convince the Arabs, who were often in conflict with the Jews, wouldn’t it have been easier to denigrate all these Jews instead of praising them? Yes, but that’s neither what the Quran says, nor what Muhammad said.

Moreover, if you wanted to create and spread a new religion, surely you’d make it easy to practice, with as few constraints as possible, just like most idolatrous religions of the time. Would you try to impose the complete banning of alcohol, a whole month of fasting every year, 5 compulsory daily prayers at fixed times?… No, it wouldn’t make sense, because nobody would follow such a religion. But amazingly that’s what the Quran and Muhammad have done, without ever accepting any compromise to this message. And the most extraordinary is that this religion has triumphed over all the others !

If Muhammad was an imposter, what was his personal interest to have his people abide by these countless food restrictions, this entire month of fasting every year, these 5 compulsory prayers every day? Why did he insist so much on these restrictions, which personal interest did he get from it?
Of course none, it even made many tribes hesitate and sometimes abandon him. It really made his mission very much harder to fulfill, but yet he never accepted any compromise to this message.
In a famous episode of Muhammad’s life, a tribe called Thaqif accepted to convert to Islam and to obey Muhammad if he allowed them to keep some of their idols and to be exempted from the 5 daily prayers. Muhammad refused categorically. Rather than to acquire absolute power over this important tribe without any effort, he preferred to remain faithful to the message God had transmitted him.


But let’s still continue this hypothesis “Muhammad was an imposter and invented the Quran”, already shaken by these few facts; if Muhammad wasn’t guided by God, then we also have to admit that he was:

-The greatest Arabic writer in history ; because no one can deny that the Quran is the greatest literary piece ever written in this language. Still 14 Centuries later, if you go to any University to study Arabic literature, you’ll study mainly the Quran for its inimitable style and the beauty of its verses. God himself challenges anyone to produce anything like it (Quran 11:13,14). A challenge that still 14 Centuries later no human has been able to meet.

-A scientific genius; the reproduction of humans, of plants, the aquatic origin of all life, the orbits of the sun and the earth, the expansion of the Universe, these are a few of the scientific truths mentioned in the Quran, some of which discovered more than 1000 years later.

-A genius in medicine; thanks to its very strict hygiene and food restrictions, the Quran and the Sunna (the teachings of Muhammad) have allowed Muslim countries that abode by these laws to be spared from most great epidemics that wreaked havoc in other parts of the world. Still today, look at how the latest great epidemics, the AIDS virus, has strangely largely spared the Middle East, the Maghreb and the Arabic peninsula (all the Muslim countries), whereas it causes havoc in all the neighboring regions (Sub-Saharian Africa and South-Western Asia).
Everyone now recognizes the importance of diet, sexual non promiscuity and regular washing of one’s feet and hands to prevent the transmission of diseases. All these principles were dictated 14 Centuries ago by an illiterate Arab who had never studied medicine in his life.

-A genius in law ; The Quran and Muhammad’s Sunna are the first great legislation in history to elaborate such a comprehensive list of the rights and duties of all human beings (several thousands of pages covering a multitude of fields), about 11 Centuries before the West had any kind of counterpart with the Universal Declaration of the Human Rights, itself much less comprehensive than the vastness of domains broached by the Islamic Law.

-A speaker with amazing eloquence; thanks to his wisdom and eloquence, Muhammad managed to touch the heart of billions of human beings and to convince them that he was the Messenger of God, and that in spite of the horrendous persecutions that hit the first men and women that believed in his Mission. He was so much admired that tens of thousands of pages of his sermons and teachings were memorized by his companions and their descendants and put into writing to constitute what we now call the Sunna.
From which other great Man of History have we preserved so many teachings?

-A military genius; what Muhammad accomplished in this field in so little time, he who until the age of 52 (when God revealed him the verse ordering him to defend himself) had never shown any interest for war nor had had any experience whatsoever neither as a fighter or as a strategist, is really beyond the extraordinary.
He’s often compared to Alexander the Great and Napoleon, but what Muhammad accomplished is even more extraordinary, and that for the 2 following reasons:

-While the vast empires that Alexander and Napoleon established crumbled pretty quickly (a few decades after his death for Alexander and in his own lifetime for Napoleon, which shows how little support they had in the land they had conquered), the conquests of Islam not only didn’t crumble after Muhammad’s death, but continued to expand under his companions and successors. Even during the era of colonization, while the Europeans had managed to impose Christianity in most of their colonies, they never succeeded in Muslim countries, such was the attachment of Muslims to their religion. On the contrary, 14 Centuries later, in the whole of Europe and North America, it is islam and mosques are spreading like flooding waters.

-Another big difference: Greece already was a powerful nation when Alexander took power, and France was along with England the most powerful country in Europe when Napoleon came to power. In other words Alexander and Napoleon had right from the start huge means; a great, experienced and well-equipped army…
Muhammad had nothing, no army, no king or nation to support him, he was at the beginning completely alone. He had to convince his co-tribesmen and contemporaries one by one about the truth of his Mission, endure his tribe’s persecutions, build with his companions makeshift weapons to defend himself, then constitute a modest army with people who for many of them had no experience in fighting whatsoever.
From this modest start, and thanks to miraculous victories over armies largely superior in numbers and in means, he succeeded in spreading Islam over almost the whole of the Arabic Peninsula.
How could a man have achieved such a feat if he had not been protected and guided by God?

-A political genius; thanks to judicious treaties with other Arab tribes, intelligent strategic decisions both in and off the battlefield, Muhammad managed to spread Islam on most of the Arab peninsula, and make of this forgotten and desertic land the heart of a civilization that would later expand from Morocco to India !
And what other great King or Emperor managed to rule over such a large territory without ever owning any palace, any fortress, any bodyguard, relying only on his Lord and Creator to Guide him and Protect him?


History has seen a few literary geniuses, and also a few military geniuses, and a handful of geniuses in each of the fields I have mentioned.
But having a man excel in all these fields at once, surpassing all the geniuses from any period of History in such various and different domains, it is simply out of this world. And this coming from a man who had never followed any education and could hardly even read ! ! !

Is it reasonable to think that this man (who until the age of 40¾the beginning of his Mission¾ had never shown any interest for any of these fields) could have suddenly become such a genius?
Or is it more reasonable to think that something really extraordinary happened in this night of the year 610, that through the Angel Gabriel it is really God that addressed him and Guided him in a Divine Mission.

You can guess of course what my opinion is. An opinion based not only on faith but also on reason.

In conclusion, here’s what the great French poet Lamartine said after studying his life:
“If the greatness of a man is to be measured by comparing the smallness of his means with the greatness of his accomplishments, then what great man in History can seriously be compared to Muhammad.”
Lamartine, Histoire de la Turquie.



In truth there are really obvious signs for people who meditate. (Quran 13:3)



I believe the question should not get people to admit one way or the other, but it should surely make one think.

I have read and heard many a non-Muslim rebuttal which normally revolves around Aisha's (ra) age, 900 Jews, or something else. But never has one naysayer commented on motive.

Why go through all the trouble just to live in abject poverty anyway, yet starting out wealthy and powerful?
 
Posts: 2523 | Registered: Wed 14 July 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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"Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps
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Posts: 15889 | Registered: Thu 29 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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for the radical Muslim one must convert or die.

God never forces anyone yet Mohammed's does.

What's up with that?

Mo did not live in abject poverty.

He was an angry person.

He himself thought he was possessed by a demon.

Aisha was his constant source of encouragement.
 
Posts: 2930 | Registered: Tue 15 March 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
On Warning
20 Days
08/29/08
Fin

"Lakum deenukum waliya deen" To you be your Way, and to me mine (109:6)
Picture of Sgt_Salaam
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 5727609:
for the radical Muslim one must convert or die.


Correct. Key word "radical"

quote:


God never forces anyone yet Mohammed's does.


False. Where is that in the Quran?

quote:

What's up with that?


Nothing, it's a lie.

quote:

Mo did not live in abject poverty.


Really? So what did he leave when he died outside a straw mat and some tattered clothes? Did he live in a palace? Or anything like that?

quote:

He was an angry person.


False. Why is it he didn't kill everyone in Mecca when he won in the end?

quote:

He himself thought he was possessed by a demon.


False. Nice try with an unreliable Hadith though....

quote:

Aisha was his constant source of encouragement.


Actually, that title would probably go to Khadijah (ra) Aisha (ra) is known as one of the first Islamic scholars.
 
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On Warning
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08/29/08
Fin

"Lakum deenukum waliya deen" To you be your Way, and to me mine (109:6)
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Posted Hide Post
Either way, what does that have to do with the initial post?
 
Posts: 2523 | Registered: Wed 14 July 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?
Hitler: a Prophet or an imposter?
I believe both questions generate two questions...
Profit to what...
imposter of what...


"Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps
127:1)

 
Posts: 15889 | Registered: Thu 29 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:
Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?
Hitler: a Prophet or an imposter?
I believe both questions generate two questions...
Profit to what...
imposter of what...


yea good reply...


 
Posts: 32822 | Registered: Thu 18 August 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Posted Hide Post
God never forces anyone yet Mohammed's does.



False. Where is that in the Quran?


It's not verbatim in the Quran, as you well know. It's implied in the history of the Faith. From the early days when tribes converting wanted to raid they were told it wasn't permissible to attack other Muslims. It therefore became permissible to raid or attack idolaters and unbelievers. Expansion was the immediate and inevitable result. Precedents were set and edicts put forth by scholars of the Faith. Now it is quite acceptable to commit attrocities in defense of the Faith, after all, it will be as Allah wills it. The problem is not the Quran. It never has been. The problem lies in the later additions, many of them based on events put forth in the Hadith, many more of them later convoluted to fit more modern desires. How many times have I heard Muslims proclaim that they are humiliated? Just as often I hear how that is because the Muslims are weak, and that when the Muslims are strong they will teach a painful lesson. It occurs so often that I tend to think of Muslims as a very pridefull bunch, and I wonder where they might have read THAT in the Quran. I don't remember anywhere the Quran telling us that Muslims were meant to "dominate the world", yet just the other day I read an article from some high and mighty proclaiming just that. (Granted, my copy of the Quran is translated as I do not read Arabic, but I'm reasonably confident that it isn't a simple translation error in this case.) This line of reasoning obviously strikes a chord somewhere, otherwise there wouldn't be so many "Martyrdom-seeking Operations" going on. That same high and mighty also proclaimed that unbelievers (not only idolaters but people of the book, as well) didn't have any rights, that there were no special protections for them. We both know that isn't correct, yet he has a substantial following. Let's not forget that if I were to walk into Tribal Pakistan, it would mean my head being sawed off on internet video within hours, yet this man could easily walk into any Western city and speak freely all day of his views and recieve only some dirty looks. Now I ask you: Does it have to be in the Quran to be true?
 
Posts: 148 | Registered: Thu 08 June 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:
Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?
Hitler: a Prophet or an imposter?
I believe both questions generate two questions...
Profit to what...
imposter of what...
You could continue that same line of reasoning with:

Joseph Smith: a Prophet or an imposter?
Mary Baker Eddy: a Prophet or an imposter?
James Hagee: a Prophet or an imposter?
Pat Robertson: a Prophet or an imposter?

If they believe as you do, they are "prophets". If they believe differently than you do, they are "imposters".
 
Posts: 1175 | Registered: Thu 20 December 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fightdirector:
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:
Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?
Hitler: a Prophet or an imposter?
I believe both questions generate two questions...
Profit to what...
imposter of what...
You could continue that same line of reasoning with:

Joseph Smith: a Prophet or an imposter?
Mary Baker Eddy: a Prophet or an imposter?
James Hagee: a Prophet or an imposter?
Pat Robertson: a Prophet or an imposter?

If they believe as you do, they are "prophets". If they believe differently than you do, they are "imposters".
Have these four persons you list led armies against the world ...
...Fightdirector...

...stay on target...


"Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps
127:1)

 
Posts: 15889 | Registered: Thu 29 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
"Sarcastic Member"
Picture of thorin001
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:
quote:
Originally posted by Fightdirector:
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:
Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?
Hitler: a Prophet or an imposter?
I believe both questions generate two questions...
Profit to what...
imposter of what...
You could continue that same line of reasoning with:

Joseph Smith: a Prophet or an imposter?
Mary Baker Eddy: a Prophet or an imposter?
James Hagee: a Prophet or an imposter?
Pat Robertson: a Prophet or an imposter?

If they believe as you do, they are "prophets". If they believe differently than you do, they are "imposters".
Have these four persons you list led armies against the world ...
...Fightdirector...

...stay on target...


What do means have to do with a calling?
 
Posts: 5837 | Registered: Thu 22 March 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Picture of TAH407
Posted Hide Post
quote:


In conclusion, here’s what the great French poet Lamartine said after studying his life:
“If the greatness of a man is to be measured by comparing the smallness of his means with the greatness of his accomplishments, then what great man in History can seriously be compared to Muhammad.”




In all seriousness, to just the statement and question reduced to above; Any US Marine...

To the rest after being put into context as written; All the major prophets and most especially Christ himself...

A well written, logical, and well situated piece of work. Thank you for your diligence and delivery. I am impressed, as you show the intellect and dicipline it takes to be an accomplished writer and advanced student of what appears to be a Masters or better level of accomplishment. I too, am working to accomplish this level, but in Theology and the Divinity of Christ. It appears we are on different sides of the fence with almost the same argument. If I'm correct, let's trade theses when we get to that point. I have started mine; How the tradition of the church is stifling the work of the Spirit and is in most cases not the originally intended Theology and Tradition. In a nutshell; "The collateral damage of the Kingdom of the Traditional Church". Or something close to that, it is a work in progress! Of course if I'm wrong, forgive me and accept my applause for your style.

I.H.S.
CJ
 
Posts: 453 | Registered: Wed 05 July 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Picture of TAH407
Posted Hide Post
[/QUOTE]Have these four persons you list led armies against the world ...
...Fightdirector...

...stay on target...[/QUOTE]

The answer is a resounding yes! Spiritually...
 
Posts: 453 | Registered: Wed 05 July 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by thorin001:
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:
quote:
Originally posted by Fightdirector:
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:
Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?
Hitler: a Prophet or an imposter?
I believe both questions generate two questions...
Profit to what...
imposter of what...
You could continue that same line of reasoning with:

Joseph Smith: a Prophet or an imposter?
Mary Baker Eddy: a Prophet or an imposter?
James Hagee: a Prophet or an imposter?
Pat Robertson: a Prophet or an imposter?

If they believe as you do, they are "prophets". If they believe differently than you do, they are "imposters".
Have these four persons you list led armies against the world ...
...Fightdirector...

...stay on target...


What do means have to do with a calling?
Confused


"Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps
127:1)

 
Posts: 15889 | Registered: Thu 29 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by TAH407:
Have these four persons you list led armies against the world ...
...Fightdirector...

...stay on target...[/QUOTE]

The answer is a resounding yes! Spiritually...[/QUOTE] Spiritually...no we are talking about flesh and blood...


"Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps
127:1)

 
Posts: 15889 | Registered: Thu 29 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Picture of TAH407
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:

Spiritually...no we are talking about flesh and blood...



OK Tiger, this thread became hard to
understand. If the question was; Did these men lead armies against this world in the flesh? The answer is no. If the question was; Did these men lead armies in this world? The answer is yes, in a spiritual battle as strong leadership. I guess I did not understand the intent of the question.

As to what does means have to do with calling; I can only guess the question is begging the answer; Means should have nothing to do with a Prophet or his ability to accomplish. His accomplishments are God-inspired and Spirit lead. If he needs means (a way or tools to accomplish) he's probably not Spirit lead/equipped as a Prophet. Just my 2 cents, the way I understand this question.

Peace
Y.B.I.C.
CJ
 
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quote:
Originally posted by TAH407:
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:

Spiritually...no we are talking about flesh and blood...



OK Tiger, this thread became hard to
understand. ...I believe you are making it to hard to understand... If the question was; Did these men lead armies against this world in the flesh? The answer is no. If the question was; Did these men lead armies in this world? The answer is yes, in a spiritual battle as strong leadership. I guess I did not understand the intent of the question.

As to what does means have to do with calling; I can only guess the question is begging the answer; Means should have nothing to do with a Prophet or his ability to accomplish. His accomplishments are God-inspired and Spirit lead. If he needs means (a way or tools to accomplish) he's probably not Spirit lead/equipped as a Prophet. Just my 2 cents, the way I understand this question.

Peace
Y.B.I.C.
CJ

Shalom
Y.B.I.C.


"Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps
127:1)

 
Posts: 15889 | Registered: Thu 29 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
"Sarcastic Member"
Picture of thorin001
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:
quote:
Originally posted by thorin001:
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:
quote:
Originally posted by Fightdirector:
quote:
Originally posted by whtetiger:
Muhammad: a Prophet or an imposter?
Hitler: a Prophet or an imposter?
I believe both questions generate two questions...
Profit to what...
imposter of what...
You could continue that same line of reasoning with:

Joseph Smith: a Prophet or an imposter?
Mary Baker Eddy: a Prophet or an imposter?
James Hagee: a Prophet or an imposter?
Pat Robertson: a Prophet or an imposter?

If they believe as you do, they are "prophets". If they believe differently than you do, they are "imposters".
Have these four persons you list led armies against the world ...
...Fightdirector...

...stay on target...


What do means have to do with a calling?
Confused


What does having the means to affect world events have to do with being a messenger from some divine agency?
 
Posts: 5837 | Registered: Thu 22 March 2001