And this, in a nutshell, is why I find it very difficult to have any respect for people who vehemently "preach" (I won't call it teaching) against evolution:

http://www.csama.org/csanews/nws200807.pdf

First of all, they make the heinously false assumption that knowledgeable acceptance of evolution as the driving force behind biodiversity means that a person has no faith in God whatsoever.

Second, they assume that the same scientific acceptance means that a person has absolutely no morality.

Third, they make the statement that people who accept the scientific theory of evolution shouldn't be allowed to vote, and that the "evolutionist class" shouldn't even be tolerated, and should be violently expelled from civilized society.

There's more. Go on, read the article. To be blunt, THIS IS WHY I THINK THOSE PEOPLE ARE INSANE.

quote:

Originally posted by Whirled_Peas:
And this, in a nutshell, is why I find it very difficult to have any respect for people who vehemently "preach" (I won't call it teaching) against evolution:

http://www.csama.org/csanews/nws200807.pdf

First of all, they make the heinously false assumption that knowledgeable acceptance of evolution as the driving force behind biodiversity means that a person has no faith in God whatsoever.

Second, they assume that the same scientific acceptance means that a person has absolutely no morality.

Third, they make the statement that people who accept the scientific theory of evolution shouldn't be allowed to vote, and that the "evolutionist class" shouldn't even be tolerated, and should be violently expelled from civilized society.

There's more. Go on, read the article. To be blunt, THIS IS WHY I THINK THOSE PEOPLE ARE INSANE.

No surprises there!

Have you ever read the Wedge Strategy?

I wouldn't worry about it too much. They have already lost. Here's why.

He repeatedly refers to evolution as a religion, and to evolutionists as religious. If that's the way they see it, then they have the following choices:

Attack our right to believe in and practice that "religion," which puts them at odds with the politically powerful forces of Mormonism, Judaism, Roman Catholicism, and others. Nut jobs like the CSA are nowhere near numerous enough to defeat all those forces combined, and combine they would if their freedom to practice religion were attacked.

Allow us to freely practice our "religion."

If on the other hand they attack us, not on religious grounds, but upon the scientific validity of the claims themselves, WE HAVE ALREADY WON!!!

quote:

Originally posted by SteveDeHaven:
I wouldn't worry about it too much. They have already lost. Here's why.

He repeatedly refers to evolution as a religion, and to evolutionists as religious. If that's the way they see it, then they have the following choices:

Attack our right to believe in and practice that "religion," which puts them at odds with the politically powerful forces of Mormonism, Judaism, Roman Catholicism, and others. Nut jobs like the CSA are nowhere near numerous enough to defeat all those forces combined, and combine they would if their freedom to practice religion were attacked.

Allow us to freely practice our "religion."

If on the other hand they attack us, not on religious grounds, but upon the scientific validity of the claims themselves, WE HAVE ALREADY WON!!!

It's not that I'm worried that they're right - I know better. I'm worried that people in positions of power (elected officials, school boards, etc.) will believe this tripe. You know it's bogus, and I know it's bogus, but there are too many people for whom logic is irrelevant. Next thing you know, school districts with brainwashed judges will prevent children from being taught real science, and we'll produce a generation of ignorant people. That's what worries me - the possibility of eventually having a majority of people who can't understand the difference between science and religion, and who demonize and denigrate anyone who isn't strictly Biblical Christian.

Blessings Whirled_Peas,

There are always more consequences to every desire. I caution you to be wary of what you ask for. I am not sure what you have written will happen as it is written.

quote:

Originally posted by Whirled_Peas:
That's what worries me - the possibility of eventually having a majority of people who can't understand the difference between science and religion, and who demonize and denigrate anyone who isn't strictly Biblical Christian.

I am worried about the possibility of a majority of people who can no longer read with comprehension and write with clarity. Thus becoming susceptible to exploitation by those with the most radical thoughts and ideas. Eventually creating an epic battle between forces that cause neighbor to kill neighbor and relative to kill relative. The causes may change but the resultative effect have been historically the same.

However I am not a Prophet and do not propose that I am making a valid prediction.

LJ

quote:

Originally posted by all4truth:
I am worried about the possibility of a majority of people who can no longer read with comprehension and write with clarity. Thus becoming susceptible to exploitation by those with the most radical thoughts and ideas. Eventually creating an epic battle between forces that cause neighbor to kill neighbor and relative to kill relative. The causes may change but the resultative effect have been historically the same.

However I am not a Prophet and do not propose that I am making a valid prediction.

LJ

Hi All4truth,

I have the same concerns as you, too. That paragraph was very aptly stated, and it is a valid worry. Where radical ideas clash with no room for flexibility and comprehension, where people are unable to communicate with each other openly and clearly... yes, that's an enormous danger.

One of the things I see in that essay I linked was a clear intent to misrepresent an "opposing" group in order to sway opinions based on false accusations. When people who are good, compassionate Christians see another self-professed Christian ranting about the evils of such-and-such as a threat to morals and civilized society, SOME of them will trust that another self-professed Christian would be telling the truth. As in any group, there are people who are too easily swayed. The more people who are swayed, the more people will follow after them, creating a snowball effect.

Likewise, those who have been on the other side of that line find themselves in a debate where (to some people) no intellectual compromise is possible. People begin ripping each other apart, and always point out the most extreme examples to demonize the other group.

We're seeing it all the time. Now, when I pointed out the group of people in the first post of this discussion, I wanted to make clear that I was referring to those people who are as vehement as that. I am under no false impression that they speak for all Christians, or even for the Christians who believe in Creationism. However, even I can admit that it becomes very easy to make broader categorizations.

People point out the worst stereotypes about Muslims, gays, atheists, blacks, Hispanics, and so on, and pretend that those extreme examples are representative of the entire groups. In this way, we find that groups become distrustful, angry, disillusioned, and even hateful. Yes, that's how we begin to fight. People are sucked into extreme ideals based on misrepresentations of other groups, and the rest is yet another chapter in the bloody progression of history.

Blessings Whirled_Peas,

I understood fully the intent of your original post. I wanted to draw attention to the root cause and effect and not the battle of teh day. If we were to combine my paragraph with your last paragraphs I would propose that we have summed up things nicely.

quote:

Originally posted by Whirled_Peas:

quote:

Originally posted by all4truth:
I am worried about the possibility of a majority of people who can no longer read with comprehension and write with clarity. Thus becoming susceptible to exploitation by those with the most radical thoughts and ideas. Eventually creating an epic battle between forces that cause neighbor to kill neighbor and relative to kill relative. The causes may change but the resultative effect have been historically the same.

People point out the worst stereotypes about Muslims, gays, atheists, blacks, Hispanics, and so on, and pretend that those extreme examples are representative of the entire groups. In this way, we find that groups become distrustful, angry, disillusioned, and even hateful.

Yes, that's how we begin to fight.

People are sucked into extreme ideals based on misrepresentations of other groups, and the rest is yet another chapter in the bloody progression of history.

LJ

Wow! That guy is out there, eh. Loonier that Kent Hovind! Wonder if he's a sponsor of Ken Hamm's Flintstones Museum?
Creationists have been projecting their foibles on anyone who accepts the validity of scientific theories. If they're locked into religious dogma, then, by gorry, evolutionists must be, too.
As an aside. Anyone notice how McBush McCain has begun pandering to the wingnuts?

quote:

Originally posted by all4truth:
Blessings Whirled_Peas,

I understood fully the intent of your original post. I wanted to draw attention to the root cause and effect and not the battle of teh day. If we were to combine my paragraph with your last paragraphs I would propose that we have summed up things nicely.

Agreed. We sometimes make a good team, yes?

We can only hope to encourage respectful dialogue between groups of people instead of the distrust and anger. Sometimes, I listen to what people are saying out there, and I wonder what we're really heading for.

quote:

Originally posted by Whirled_Peas:
We can only hope to encourage respectful dialogue between groups of people instead of the distrust and anger. Sometimes, I listen to what people are saying out there, and I wonder what we're really heading for.

WP,

I'm all for respectful dialogue. However, when people start using religion to justify flying planes into buildings, you can bet my response will incline neither toward respect nor to dialogue. The same goes for religion-based invasions, intrusions into private lives, and (to borrow your topic) education funded by MY tax dollars (which is an entire topic unto itself).

Peas be upon you. RAmen.

quote:

Originally posted by BonoboJones:

As an aside. Anyone notice how McBush McCain has begun pandering to the wingnuts?

Depressing, isn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by SteveDeHaven:

quote:

Originally posted by Whirled_Peas:
We can only hope to encourage respectful dialogue between groups of people instead of the distrust and anger. Sometimes, I listen to what people are saying out there, and I wonder what we're really heading for.

WP,

I'm all for respectful dialogue. However, when people start using religion to justify flying planes into buildings, you can bet my response will incline neither toward respect nor to dialogue. The same goes for religion-based invasions, intrusions into private lives, and (to borrow your topic) education funded by MY tax dollars (which is an entire topic unto itself).

Peas be upon you. RAmen.

Aaah! You've been touched by His Noodly Appendage! RAMEN!!!

And yes, as soon as the nutcase extremists start f'king with people in dangerous ways, that's when the polite discourse ends. Of course, it's always good to avoid CREATING more extremists by infuriating the moderates by making broad-sweeping generalities and doing stupid stuff, but you know what I mean.

May the Pasta be with you. Always.

K.J.;

Which wing nuts did you have in mind?? I started to put together a list, but figured I wouldn't live long enough to complete it!! After all, I thought in the 2000 elections groups like evangelicals and Bob Jones University and such were excoriated by him. but then the sheeple have a short memory, don't they.

T

By the way;

I forgot to mention that I, a short time ago, joined with the Butler University project to get churches to draft resolutions stating that they accept evolution as an acceptable tool for the explanation of our world. Google them up and you will see, The Tree of The Mustard Seed there and, little old lovable me!

At the just completed World conference of The United Methodist Church, 2008 ( they meet every 4 years )It was resolved, to make the same resolution part of the book of discipline and the book of concordance, world wide, throughout the connectional apparatus of the church.

Be careful of where you throw those rocks fellas!!

T

quote:

Originally posted by tawodi:
By the way;

I forgot to mention that I, a short time ago, joined with the Butler University project to get churches to draft resolutions stating that they accept evolution as an acceptable tool for the explanation of our world. Google them up and you will see, The Tree of The Mustard Seed there and, little old lovable me!

At the just completed World conference of The United Methodist Church, 2008 ( they meet every 4 years )It was resolved, to make the same resolution part of the book of discipline and the book of concordance, world wide, throughout the connectional apparatus of the church.

Be careful of where you throw those rocks fellas!!

T

It's not meant as a generality about all Christians, Tawodi, and I hope you know that. I was pointing out a very specific sub-set of Christians... the EXTREME creationists who are not only set in their personal beliefs, but malicious towards others and who resort to lying to demonize other perspectives. Anyone who is capable of having an intelligent discourse on the topic, regardless of perspective, isn't in that category, and you are most certainly not in that category.

It's also nice to hear about some of the work you did.

Of course I knew that!!

But you must admit if I had allowed some of the comentary to continue eleven and a half million Methodists can make a nasty mess out of the lawn camped out in protest!!

T

quote:

Originally posted by tawodi:
Of course I knew that!!

But you must admit if I had allowed some of the comentary to continue eleven and a half million Methodists can make a nasty mess out of the lawn camped out in protest!!

T

LOL... I imagine that they could indeed! Dare I ask how that all developed?

Blessings Whirled_Peas,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I decided to take a break and watch the NBA play off game between the Celtics and the Lakers. Glad that I did.

To answer you question, yes we do, especially when we have respectful dialogue without distrust and anger.

It is an awesome thing to see people operating without rancor. One of the things I miss about my military service. Also what I expected to find on this forum.

LJ

quote:

Originally posted by Whirled_Peas:

quote:

Originally posted by all4truth:
I understood fully the intent of your original post. I wanted to draw attention to the root cause and effect and not the battle of teh day. If we were to combine my paragraph with your last paragraphs I would propose that we have summed up things nicely.

Agreed. We sometimes make a good team, yes?

We can only hope to encourage respectful dialogue between groups of people instead of the distrust and anger. Sometimes, I listen to what people are saying out there, and I wonder what we're really heading for.

PEAS;

Of course you can ask but it is easier if you google up Butler U. and read all they have done.

I am in "light" contact with them in RE; The People of Abraham an the interfaith efforts we are engaged in.

If you meant the Methodists and the messy lawn.....have you ever cleaned up after one of our pot luck suppers?? EEeeeewewwww!!!!

T

P.S. I just e mailed you via milcom with a short excerpt and some links to them ( Butler U. )

T

quote:

Originally posted by tawodi:
By the way;

I forgot to mention that I, a short time ago, joined with the Butler University project to get churches to draft resolutions stating that they accept evolution as an acceptable tool for the explanation of our world. Google them up and you will see, The Tree of The Mustard Seed there and, little old lovable me!

At the just completed World conference of The United Methodist Church, 2008 ( they meet every 4 years )It was resolved, to make the same resolution part of the book of discipline and the book of concordance, world wide, throughout the connectional apparatus of the church.

Be careful of where you throw those rocks fellas!!

T

Have you checked out this site, Bruce?
The Clergy Letter Project has moved. It's no longer at the link at the above site.