3rd person dies in Ariz. sweat lodge ceremony case

By FELICIA FONSECA, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 33 mins ago
FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. – An Arizona homicide investigation now includes three deaths after a woman died more than a week after participating in a sweat lodge ceremony that hospitalized nearly two dozen people.
Liz Neuman of Minnesota died Saturday at a Flagstaff hospital, Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said.
The 49-year-old suffered multiple organ damage during the Oct. 8 ceremony at a resort near Sedona, a resort town 115 miles north of Phoenix that draws many in the New Age spiritual movement.
Authorities were treating all three deaths as homicides, but no charges have been filed.
D'Evelyn did not provide a city of residence for Neuman, but public records showed an address in Prior Lake, about 25 miles southwest of Minneapolis.
Neuman was among more than 50 people crowded inside the sweat lodge run by self-help guru James Arthur Ray. An emergency call two hours after they entered the lodge reported two people not breathing.
Twenty-one people were taken to area hospitals with illnesses ranging from dehydration to kidney failure. Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee died upon arrival at a hospital.
No one else remains hospitalized.
Authorities haven't determined what caused the deaths. Autopsy results on Brown and Shore are pending further testing.
The Rev. Meredith Ann Murray of Bellingham, Wash., who has completed all of Ray's retreats, said Neuman was among Ray's earliest followers and had attended dozens of his events.
According to Ray's Web site, Neuman was the leader of the Minneapolis-area "Journey Expansion Team." The teams, developed by Ray's friends and followers around the country, meet to exchange ideas on his principles. The next Minneapolis-area meeting is scheduled for Oct. 23.
Ray had rented the Angel Valley Retreat Center for his five-day "Spiritual Warrior" event that culminated in the sweat lodge ceremony. Participants paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend the retreat.
Ray declined to be interviewed by the sheriff's office on the night of the incident and Arizona authorities said he had not spoken to them as of Thursday. In his first public appearance Tuesday in Los Angeles, Ray told a crowd of about 200 that he has hired his own investigative team to determine what went wrong.
His spokesman, Howard Bragman, has said that Ray's team and Ray's attorney are cooperating with the sheriff's investigators.
More than 100 people attended the funeral for Brown on Saturday at Holy Name of Jesus Church in Otisville, N.Y., according to The Times Herald-Record in Middletown, N.Y. The avid hiker and surfer who had a passion for art was remembered as a spiritual seeker.
Services for Shore were held late Saturday afternoon at the Hubbard Lodge in Milwaukee.

I have to admit, Bill, there have been times in my "religious" profession that I have wished I had come up with a scheme to suck the bucks out of those who will believe anything! It is easy to do... and I bet I could do it.
A University I was doing NRM (new religious movements) research at once wanted me to start a new religion so they could study it. I said no, but I think I lost out on an opportunity. They did start something and sure enough, as weird as it was, people showed up ready to be taken. Fortunately, no money was exchanged and the “study” ended after a few sessions.

quote:

Originally posted by reducetension:
I have to admit, Bill, there have been times in my "religious" profession that I have wished I had come up with a scheme to suck the bucks out of those who will believe anything! It is easy to do... and I bet I could do it.
A University I was doing NRM (new religious movements) research at once wanted me to start a new religion so they could study it. I said no, but I think I lost out on an opportunity. They did start something and sure enough, as weird as it was, people showed up ready to be taken. Fortunately, no money was exchanged and the “study” ended after a few sessions.

Did you see the movie "The Invention of Lying?"

quote:

Originally posted by billbright:

quote:

Originally posted by reducetension:
I have to admit, Bill, there have been times in my "religious" profession that I have wished I had come up with a scheme to suck the bucks out of those who will believe anything! It is easy to do... and I bet I could do it.
A University I was doing NRM (new religious movements) research at once wanted me to start a new religion so they could study it. I said no, but I think I lost out on an opportunity. They did start something and sure enough, as weird as it was, people showed up ready to be taken. Fortunately, no money was exchanged and the “study” ended after a few sessions.

Did you see the movie "The Invention of Lying?"

Not yet, but it's on our list.... after the Zombe flick, of course!

I saw it. I didn't know it took a whack at religion. It's a good English-dry-humor comedy, in any case.

Mecca super-hotel to offer spa, butler and a chocolate room
FRIDAY, 16 OCTOBER 2009 07:46
Guardian

Luxury developments at holy site raise concerns hajj will become preserve of elite

Riazat Butt, religious affairs correspondent

The pilgrimage to Mecca has always involved hardship and sacrifice, whether months spent travelling on foot through barren valleys and sleeping in the open with no shelter from the elements or stripping oneself of earthly trappings. But help is at hand for the pilgrim who cannot bear to be without comfort while executing the fifth pillar of Islam.

Raffles, which gave thirsty wanderers the Singapore Sling, is opening a luxury hotel in Mecca offering pilgrims a coffee sommelier, a chocolate room where chefs will prepare bespoke pralines and truffles, and a 24-hour butler service.

Undeterred by restrictions on beautifying oneself during the Hajj, the hotel will also have segregated gyms, beauty parlours, grooming salons and a spa.

There are strict rules regarding personal hygiene and behaviour during the hajj, and forbidden activities include sex, the cutting of hair and nails and the trimming of beards. These bars are lifted once certain rituals are complete, but Muslims are generally expected to forget worldly thoughts and activities and focus on the divine.

Mohammed Arkobi, the general manager of the new hotel, did not explain how a chocolate room and spa would help pilgrims achieve spiritual fulfilment. Nor was he able to comment on how the amenities complied with the ethos of the hajj, which is about simplicity and humility.

But he did say that the "comprehensive range of services" were designed to meet the needs of the "discerning" travellers they were targeting.

"Ultimately, the hotel's sophisticated ambience, our range of features and highly personalised service delivery such as those offered through our 24-hour butler service will help to ensure that our residents' overall experience will be enriching."

Arkobi said the hotel was a three-minute walk away from the Grand Mosque, the Masjid al-Haram, and that a "spacious outdoor dining terrace" would provide direct views of it.

It is being developed by the Saudi Binladin Company, one of the largest construction firms in the Arab world, which has also been responsible for overseeing the expansion of the holy mosques in Mecca and Medina. The company was set up by Mohammed bin Laden, father of Osama, although the family is now estranged from its most infamous son.

Around 4 million people visit Mecca for hajj, with millions more passing through the rest of the year to perform the lesser pilgrimage. Estimates for future numbers vary wildly - from 10 million to 20 million - and the landscape of Mecca has undergone a dramatic transformation over the decades to cope with demand. Homes have been bulldozed, mountains flattened and historic sites razed to provide more hotel rooms and amenities.

One development that will dominate the skyline and the Grand Mosque is the Makkah Royal Clock Tower, operated by international hoteliers Fairmont, which is majority owned by a company chaired by HRH Prince Alwaleed bin Talal bin Abdulaziz Alsaud, the Saudi king's nephew.

The tower will be among the tallest in the world, 577 metres (1,893ft) high on completion, and its dimensions, including a clockface measuring 40 metres across that will be visible 10 miles away, make it five times larger than Big Ben.

In addition to 1,005 guest rooms, the tower will also house a lunar observation centre and Islamic museum. It lies in the massive Abraj Al Bait complex, part of the King Abdul Aziz endowment project aimed at upgrading the precincts of Mecca and Medina.

Mecca's makeover is alarming international activists, such as Ali al-Ahmed, the director of the Washington-based Institute for Gulf Affairs, a thinktank analysing events and issues in the region. Ahmed, an outspoken critic of the Saudi regime, said many factors were driving the changes.

"The al-Sauds want to make Mecca like Dubai, it is a money-making operation. They destroy ancient buildings because they do not want any history other than their own, they see it as competition. They destroy and dispose of artefacts."

He also expressed concern that the arrival of luxury brands would increase the price of a pilgrimage. A 2009 platinum Hajj package from a UK tour operator costs £6,400 for 16 nights full board, based on double occupancy.

"By developing Mecca in this way they are making it inaccessible and unaffordable for the majority of Muslims. It will only be for the elite," Ahmed said.

The city's increasing westernisation was a "perversion of the religion", encouraging activities that were at odds with the spirit of the hajj, he said.

"The Saudis may come across as austere but members of the ruling class have billions of dollars between them - even the muftis live in palaces with chandeliers."

Development of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina should not come at the expense of religious practice, he said, before turning his attention to the lack of protest from Muslims around the world.

"Let's take Jerusalem as an example. Muslims are outraged when Israelis do something in the Old City, but in Mecca things are being systematically destroyed and nobody is raising an eyebrow. It is a catastrophe."

Raffles Mecca is due to open in April 2010.

From Kalifah.com:

Turning to Mecca

Mecca, or Makkah al Mukarrama, has a population of 1.7m but visitors swell its streets all year round.

According to Islamic tradition, Muhammad was born in Mecca, and it is said to be the place where Allah's message was first revealed to him.

Each day Muslims from around the world turn to Mecca to pray and, at least once in their lives if they can afford it, they travel there to perform the hajj.

At the heart of Mecca's Grand Mosque is the Kaaba, a large stone structure constituting of a single room with a marble floor. It stands around 60 feet high and each side is approximately 60 feet in length. The Qur'an says that Ibrahim and his son Ishmael were the founders of the Kaaba, building the shrine dedicated to the worship of Allah.

Even before its association, the city was still a focal point in the region. In ancient times it was a staging post on the trade route linking the spice producers of the east with Mesopotamia and the Mediterranean. Its reputation as a commercial centre continues today. Malls and markets line the city's roads and alleys, fighting for attention.

From Host.Madison.com:

Excerpt:

A central Wisconsin couple who prayed rather than seek medical care for their 11-year-old dying daughter were sentenced Tuesday to six months in jail and 10 years probation in the girl's death.

Dale and Leilani Neumann could have received up to 25 years in prison for the March 2008 death of Madeline Neumann, who died of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes. They were convicted of second-degree reckless homicide in separate trials earlier this year.

In sentencing the couple, Marathon County Circuit Court Judge Vincent Howard said the Neumanns were "very good people, raising their family
who made a bad decision, a reckless decision."

'http://www.kofc.org/un/cmf/resources/Communications/documents/pledge._nhcourt.pdf

Michael Newdow and the FFrF vs the State of New Hampshire regarding the prayer clause in the Pledge. Dismissed.

Do you mean to tell me Newdow was stupid enough to go to New Hampshire with his crap???

And he's still alive??

Well..... must be too many transplants up there already............

You okay, Bruce? You've been awfully grumpy lately.

...Yeah, I know. Pot and kettle thing.

Yeah Bill I'm cool you're cool....I just thought the last place I had heard about this guy was in California...now he's in N.H.?

how you is?? Didn't you go off on a trip recently?? At least I thought you did for a couple of weeks......I had another bout of pneumonia again not as bad as some but not fun either...so I guess grumpy is a good description!

Take care....T

quote:

Originally posted by tawodi:
Yeah Bill I'm cool you're cool....I just thought the last place I had heard about this guy was in California...now he's in N.H.?

how you is?? Didn't you go off on a trip recently?? At least I thought you did for a couple of weeks......I had another bout of pneumonia again not as bad as some but not fun either...so I guess grumpy is a good description!

Take care....T

I get pneumonia all the time, too. Sucks.

Yeah, I drove from here in Wisconsin to New York State and had deep discussions with my brother's goats and chickens. His pig wouldn't comment. We toured his syrup facility... cute little log cabin affair. I buzzed out to visit a house-bound friend near there, then down to stay a night with my sister closer to the city, then to National Park New Jersey to visit a cousin, then to Langley AFB. Then I drove to South Carolina to have birthday dinners on both ends of the state with my daughters and their families. Then for a few sunny days at Patrick AFB in Florida. Then out to Eglin AFB for a night. I stopped in Louisana for some Cajun cookin' and went to my uncle's in Round Rock Texas with a birthday cake for his eighty-first, then on to Whiteman AFB in Missouri, then home. It was a great trip... except for the gloomy weather everywhere but Florida.

quote:

I get pneumonia all the time, too. Sucks.

My doc. gave me a pneumonia shot a couple of years ago and I have not had the nasty sickness since then. We three are all about the same age, so have you had a shot?

(a joke: I had to drop out of medical school due to pneumonia.

I couldn't spell it.)

Yeah I got one about four years ago and in Sept. when I was at the doc's. She couldn't find it in the records and didn't want to give me one with the flu shot I had just gotten......gonna go and get one fellas!!

Afghan president, challenger endorse runoff
By ROBERT H. REID (AP) – 3 hours ago
KABUL — President Hamid Karzai and his challenger ruled out a power-sharing deal before Afghanistan's Nov. 7 runoff, saying the second round of balloting must be held as planned to bolster democracy in this war-ravaged country.
Some Obama administration officials had said the U.S. would be receptive to a deal to avoid another disruptive election if Karzai and former Foreign Minister Abdullah Abdullah agreed.
However, both Afghan candidates said on talk shows televised Sunday in the United States that they were committed to a second-round vote, despite the huge security and logistical challenges and the threat of Taliban attacks against voters.
"It has to be held. I made sure to have agreement from all the international players before agreeing to runoff to have a second round absolutely surely agreed upon and promised," Karzai said on CNN's "Fareed Zakaria_GPS" program. "Therefore, we must have a second round. If we don't do that, we'll be insulting democracy and a pledge to respecting the vote of the people."
Speaking on "Fox News Sunday," Abdullah was asked if he were interested in a deal to avoid a runoff.
"No, I think I should rule it out because I'm ready to go for a runoff," he replied.
President Barack Obama's administration is hoping the runoff will produce a legitimate government after massive ballot-rigging sullied the first-round vote. Another flawed election would cast doubt on the wisdom of sending tens of thousands more U.S. troops to support a weak government tainted by fraud.
Last Tuesday, Karzai bowed to intense international pressure and agreed to a runoff after a U.N.-backed panel voided enough of his votes in the Aug. 20 election that he fell below the 50 percent threshold for a first-round victory in the 36-candidate race.
Abdullah said his focus was on making sure that the November election is carried out without the fraud that marred the first round of balloting.
Abdullah's campaign aides have called for the top three officials on Afghanistan's Independent Election Commission to step down because of their alleged role in electoral fraud. However, Abdullah's campaign has stopped short of threatening a boycott if the electoral officials refuse to step down.
Karzai acknowledged fraud had taken place but insisted that the August balloting "as a whole was clean, and as a result was clear.
"I decided for peace, for stability, and for the future of democracy in Afghanistan and for the future of institutional order in Afghanistan to call for a runoff, and I find that in the interest of the Afghan people," he said.
Karzai said that if Abdullah is interested in joining the government after the election "he is most welcome."
"I'm known for consensus building and for inclusivity," Karzai said. "And that's a good trademark."
Abdullah, speaking on CNN's "State of the Union," program, said he left the Karzai government three years ago because he did not want to be part of "the same deteriorating situation."
The political battle is raging as the Taliban is gaining strength, exploiting public disenchantment with poor governance and widespread discontent in much of the country over the presence of foreign military forces. Western officials are eager to see a new government in place so they can begin trying to heal the deep rifts within anti-Taliban groups in the country.
In the capital of Kabul, riot police fired shots in the air Sunday to disperse a demonstration by nearly 1,000 students protesting the rumored desecration of a Muslim holy book, the Quran, by U.S. troops during an operation two weeks ago in Wardak province.
U.S. and Afghan authorities have denied any such desecration and insist that the Taliban are spreading the rumor to stir up public anger. The rumor has sparked similar protests in Wardak and Khost provinces.
Students burned an effigy of Obama and chanted slogans such as "down with Americans, down with Israel" as they marched from Kabul University to the parliament building, where riot police turned them back. There were no reports of casualties.
One of the demonstrators, who gave his name as Zabiullah, said "the people behind this humiliation should be arrested." "The actions of the university students are because the Quran is the law of our Islamic religion, and it has been desecrated," he said.
Also Sunday, the NATO command said a bomb killed an American service member the day before in southern Afghanistan. No further details were released.
The latest death brought to at least 34 the number of U.S. service members killed in Afghanistan this month — down from the record monthly highs this summer but still well ahead of the monthly averages of last year.

quote:

Originally posted by billbright:
...a demonstration by nearly 1,000 students protesting the rumored desecration of a Muslim holy book, the Quran, by U.S. troops during an operation two weeks ago in Wardak province...One of the demonstrators, who gave his name as Zabiullah, said "the people behind this humiliation should be arrested." "The actions of the university students are because the Quran is the law of our Islamic religion, and it has been desecrated," he said.

One of the strongest reasons I think we need to get out of the UN - they're bowing to Islamic pressure to make blasphemy a crime. And of course, the religious groups get to decide what constitutes blasphemy. I think a European Wiccan needs to file suit under one of these laws, charging publishers with defamation of religion for producing Bibles that contains Exodus 22:18 - "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Afghanistan's supreme court is paneled by nothing but Muslim clerics. How does democracy actually have a chance there?

SUFFER THE LITTLE CHILDREN
A Florida school district recently enlisted third graders to
proselytize against separation of church and state. What in the
name of God is going on in our nation's classrooms?

It has been nearly half-a-century since the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a battery of practices that turned public school classrooms into churches by promoting prayer, religious instruction and display of religious iconography. The landmark cases were a clear victory on behalf of state-church separation. The justices took a dim view of activities like unison Bible verse recitation, or forcing youngsters to pledge allegiance to the American flag "under God."
The involvement of younger impressionable children raised the bar for judicial scrutiny. Courts rightly noted how peer pressure and the threat of social ostracism -- even violence -meant that religious activities in the classroom could be especially divisive and inappropriate.

You would think, then, that school board, administrators and teachers would have understood the message. Many have, but across the country there has been a campaign of defiance that has kept First Amendment watchdog groups like American Atheists busy trying to uphold the intent of those Supreme Court decisions. "Religious freedom"
groups meanwhile have resorted to every conceivable ploy and legal strategy to smuggle religious exercise back into the public schools. Student led prayer, "spontaneous" praying at athletic events or holding student vote on whether to have a religious message delivered at graduation ceremonies have become strategies in this culture war fracas. Courts have not seen the end of this contentious effort, and there is good evidence that fundamentalist Christians --especially those who hold positions of authority as administrators, teachers and school board officials -- are not giving up in their campaign to "take back our schools for Jesus."

All of this makes what has recently occurred Florida particularly outrageous.

The case began when unidentified plaintiffs (fearing, as in so many First Amendment disputes, retaliation by the faithful) filed for a Preliminary Injunction against the St. John's County School District and officials at the Webster Elementary School. They charged that they school had third-grade students practice a song titled "In God We Still Trust" to be performed at an end-of-year assembly.

This was not high church music or a classic rivaling Handel's Messiah. The piece had been composed and performed by the award winning American country music band Diamond Rio, The group, founded in 1984, had carved out a niche in the country genre blending several music influences with religious themes. Early tunes boasted titles like "Oh Me, Oh My Sweet Baby" and "This Romeo Ain't Got Julie Yet." Two years later, Diamond Rio released a compendium of country-Gospel music fusion. The band signed with Word Records, a Christian music label in 2007.

The Lyrics of "In God We Still Trust" were blatantly Judeo-Christian, and demonstrated clear hostility toward the First Amendment:

You place your hand on His Bible When you swear to tell the truth His name is on our greatest monuments And all our money too And when we pledge allegiance There is no doubt where we stand There's no separation We are one nation under Him In God we still trust Here in America He's the one we turn to When the going gets tough.

According to documents, the song was played during regular classes three times, and sung at least once by the class of third graders. Students were told that they had the option of participating in the practice sessions and the school Assembly, or being excluded. Parents of two of the students filed a complaint in federal court asking for an immediate injunction, arguing that school officials were imposing sectarian religious beliefs onto the children thus violating their rights under the First and Fourteenth Amendments. The school immediately removed the song from the Assembly program schedule.

Judge Harvey E. Schlesinger, an appointee to the federal bunch of former President George H.W. Bush, saw the need to excoriate school administrators and teachers because of the important First Amendment issues involved. In a 24-page opinion granting an injunction, Schlesinger described the words of the offending song as "patently religion" and "proselytizing," and added, "The lyrics. take aim at one (of) our nation's fundamental principles: the separation of church and state."

While admitting that "Religion has been closely identified with the development of our history and government . It is, in fact, the religious persecution suffered by our forefathers that makes the freedom to religious opinion a cornerstone of our national identities." Quoting the historic opinion from School Dist. Of Abington Twp. Pa v. Schempp (1963), Schlesinger added: ".it is axiomatic to this identity that 'the government remains neutral, and while protecting all (religions), it prefers none and disparages none.' "

Schlesinger also cited the "three-prong test" for the Establishment of religion outlined by the high court in the historic 1971 opinion in Lemon v. Kurtzman.

"Through a series of cases, the Supreme Court has established a framework for analyzing claims under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Under the Lemon test, the Establishment Clause is violated if the government's primary purpose is not secular-based, if the principal; effect is to aid or inhibit religion, or if there is any 'excessive (government) entanglement" with religion."

Schlesinger's 24-page ruling in support of the Injunction reads like a legal treatise on the First Amendment. School officials blatantly endorsed sectarian religion, and compelled youngsters to participate in the process. Students who might hesitate and find the lyrics offensive had "heightened susceptibility to pressures of conformity and possible ostracism." The lyrics were propagandistic, noted Schlesinger, and took aim at the Separation of government and religion:

"By encouraging students to sing 'there is no separation, we are one nation under Him,' the school is effectively enforcing a religious view that is contrary to well-established constitutional law."

Although Webster School administrators supposedly removed the offensive song from the Assembly program on the same day Judge Schlesinger issued his order - April 15, 2009 - the case did not end there. A week later, attorneys for the Plaintiffs were back in court seeking another injunction against a "blatantly sectarian"
song. The Diamond Rio piece may have been on the back burner; but now a music instructor had students practicing "Chatter With the Angels." The plea for the new injunction stated that this second song had been selected as "retaliation": against the Plaintiffs and complaining students.

There is a political sub-text here that goes deeper than the trenchant analysis of First Amendment law by Judge Schlesinger. Some teachers and officials at St. John's School District are clearly engaged in theo-political "warfare," practicing "acts of resistance"
to the constitutional encroachments by secular, constitutional law. It is a pattern that has emerged throughout the nation, with only a few examples reaching the courts and news media. In the latter cases, legal advocacy groups like the Alliance Defense Fund stand ready to assist a teacher who blatantly proselytizes on behalf of "creationism" in science class, or uses a Bible to "teach history." Indeed, those engaged in such behaviors have won significant legal victories, skillfully and persistently arguing that "religion has a place in our classrooms." The religious content is artfully camouflaged as being historically significant or providing students with an "alternative" view of looking at the world.

The Webster School case, however, betrays something starker and more authoritarian. Religious partisans may speak of a high-school student's right to learn about "alternatives" to Darwinian evolution, or insist that these same students have a right to vote on issues like graduation ceremonial prayer. Are third graders equipped to make such judgments, though? Do they even know about the intricacies of First Amendment law - a subject that engages some of the best legal minds on both sides of the ideological divide? Is this education or proselytizing? Or should we call it what it is - sectarian indoctrination?

-- Conrad F. Goeringer,
Editor, AANEWS

quote:

Originally posted by billbright:
A Florida school district recently enlisted third graders to proselytize against separation of church and state.

I really think the problem stems from two reinforcing issues.
1. Christians believe that to fail to follow Christian doctrine places one's immortal soul at risk. Therefore, for some of them, anything they do to promote their religion is nothing less than an attempt to rescue people from something they see as worse than death itself. All the more passionately when they are attempting to rescue children. This justifies a chaplain violating his oath to the Constitution to proselytize at non-sectarian events (Gordon Klingenschmitt), a teacher using a laboratory tool to burn crosses into children's arms (John Freshwater), and the example you provided above. As God's law is above man's law, any legal trouble that might come up is merely an obstacle; to be ignored, diverted by lying (even under oath), or at worst, suffered in moral superiority as a martyr to the faith.

2. Many low-level government employees/officials (such as teachers, school board members, and such) fail to fully realize that in their official activities, they represent the full power and authority of the government itself. As such, they are more concerned with their own individual right to freedom of religion, and fail to consider that they are using government power to trample the rights of others.

None of this excuses their behavior, of course. It merely explains it. I have to say, though, in this case, the district officials are not only behaving with significant stupidity, they are also apparently getting horrible legal advice. This case is going to be all the more easy for the judge to decide now that the district is actively flouting his authority. And the results are going to be very expensive for that district. I wonder how the taxpayers are going to feel when they get the bill for the plaintiff's legal costs?

Of course you realize the adults are doing this for themselves. I'm sure most of the religious indoctrination will roll off most them (students).... it went on when I was a kid in the 1950s and I can tell you it had no enduring positive affect as I am sure they hoped it would.
Just the “magic” of being involved in sprinkling god talk over the youth make the adults feel righteous. Pete Berger, the sociologist, called it the ‘sacred canopy’ …just kind of cover them with religious mumble jumble….. as the great Bard said “…..words fly up… but thoughts remain below….”
If nothing else, pagans and wiccans should ask for equal time. Shake, rattle and roll….

1st polygamist sect criminal trial set to begin

By MICHELLE ROBERTS
Associated Press Writer
ELDORADO, Texas (AP) - Prospective jurors lined up in a cold rain Monday outside a municipal building that will serve as a makeshift courthouse for the first of a dozen polygamist sect members charged with abuse of underage girls.

Raymond Jessop, 38, is set to stand trial Monday, 18 months after agents raided the group's remote ranch and carted off more than 400 children in the largest child custody case in American history.

At least 10 people in the jury pool clearly belonged to the Fundamentalist Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints. The women wore traditional ankle-length prairie dresses with their hair in braids, and the men wore buttoned-up shirts.

Sect members had vowed to register to vote after the April 2008 raid on the Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado. Jury pools are pulled from voter registration rolls.

Jessop faces up to 20 years in prison if convicted of sexual assault of a child, a charge stemming from his alleged marriage to an underage girl in FLDS, a breakaway Mormon sect that is not recognized by the mainstream Mormon church. He will be tried later on a separate count of bigamy related to a second alleged underage bride.

In all, 12 sect members have been charged with crimes ranging from failure to report child abuse to sexual assault and bigamy.

Attorneys must cull from a pool of 300 people to try to seat 12 jurors and two alternates. Seating an impartial jury in this community of fewer than 1,900 voters may prove difficult, because most residents know one another and the raid drew intense media coverage. Images of the quaintly dressed women dominated the cable news networks for weeks after the raid.

If lawyers can't come up with a jury from the initial pool, the trial could be moved to an adjoining county.

Jessop's trial is expected to last two weeks, said Assistant state Attorney General Eric Nichols, who is prosecuting the case. The prosecution's witness list has 59 people, including law enforcement and child welfare officials, two of Jessop's alleged wives and former FLDS members.

Authorities have said little about the allegations against Jessop, but documents seized from the ranch indicate the assault charge stems from his alleged marriage to an underage girl. The girl later became pregnant and was in labor for several days in August 2005. But after Jessop consulted with sect leader Warren Jeffs, the girl wasn't taken to the hospital, allegedly out of fear that hospital authorities would discover her age and turn in Jessop.

"I knew that the girl being 16 years old, if she went to the hospital, they could put Raymond Jessop in jeopardy of prosecution as the government is looking for any reason to come against us there," Jeffs wrote in a journal seized from the ranch.

Jeffs was arrested in 2006 and later convicted as an accomplice to rape in Utah for arranging an underage marriage there. He faces similar charges in Arizona and is charged with bigamy and sexual assault of a child in Texas.

One of Jeffs' daughters allegedly married Jessop the day after she turned 15. The bigamy charge against Jessop pertains to that alleged marriage.

Under Texas law, generally, no one under 17 can consent to sex with an adult.

Sect members, who believe polygamy brings glorification in heaven, historically have lived around the Arizona-Utah line, but the sect bought a ranch on the outskirts of Eldorado about six years ago. Hundreds of FLDS members, including many of the 439 children initially taken by child welfare authorities, have returned to the log cabin-style homes there.

The Mormon church renounced polygamy more than a century ago.

quote:

Originally posted by BobApril:

quote:

Originally posted by billbright:
A Florida school district recently enlisted third graders to proselytize against separation of church and state.

I really think the problem stems from two reinforcing issues.
1. Christians believe that to fail to follow Christian doctrine places one's immortal soul at risk. Therefore, for some of them, anything they do to promote their religion is nothing less than an attempt to rescue people from something they see as worse than death itself. All the more passionately when they are attempting to rescue children. This justifies a chaplain violating his oath to the Constitution to proselytize at non-sectarian events (Gordon Klingenschmitt), a teacher using a laboratory tool to burn crosses into children's arms (John Freshwater), and the example you provided above. As God's law is above man's law, any legal trouble that might come up is merely an obstacle; to be ignored, diverted by lying (even under oath), or at worst, suffered in moral superiority as a martyr to the faith.

2. Many low-level government employees/officials (such as teachers, school board members, and such) fail to fully realize that in their official activities, they represent the full power and authority of the government itself. As such, they are more concerned with their own individual right to freedom of religion, and fail to consider that they are using government power to trample the rights of others.

None of this excuses their behavior, of course. It merely explains it. I have to say, though, in this case, the district officials are not only behaving with significant stupidity, they are also apparently getting horrible legal advice. This case is going to be all the more easy for the judge to decide now that the district is actively flouting his authority. And the results are going to be very expensive for that district. I wonder how the taxpayers are going to feel when they get the bill for the plaintiff's legal costs?

Succinct and cogent reply... as always.

'http://news-briefs.ew.com/2009/10/28/curb-your-enthusiasm-catholic-league-jesus/

Catholic League takes issue with 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' bathroom incident
by Mandi Bierly
Categories: Current Affairs, News, Television
The Catholic League, led by president Bill Donohue, is on the attack after last Sunday’s episode of HBO’s Curb Your Enthusiasm featured Larry David’s character accidentally spritzing a painting of Jesus hanging in a bathroom with a drop of urine as he relieved himself. In a statement, titled “Urinating on Jesus,” Donohue says, “At one point in the show, David goes to the bathroom in a Catholic home and splatters urine on a picture of Jesus; he doesn’t clean it off. Then a Catholic woman goes to the bathroom, sees the picture and concludes that Jesus is crying. She then summons her equally stupid mother and the two of them fall to their knees in prayer. When David and Jerry Seinfeld (playing himself) are asked if they ever experienced a miracle, David answers, ‘every erection is a miracle.’ That’s what passes for creativity these days. Was Larry David always this crude? Would he think it comedic if someone urinated on a picture of his mother?”
David, whose character did appear to be mortified by his predicament, has yet to return EW’s request for comment, but HBO has issued the followed statement: “Anyone who follows Curb Your Enthusiasm knows that the show is full of parody and satire. Larry David makes fun of everyone, most especially himself. The humor is always playful and certainly never malicious.” The network would not reveal how many emails Chairman and CEO Bill Nelson has received since Donohue shared his email address at the end of his statement, but HBO does tell EW that most of the emails followed some sort of form letter and that the senders seemed not to have seen the episode themselves.
Susan Fani, director of communications for the Catholic League, would not quantify the number of calls and emails its New York-based office has received about the episode, but says the phone has been ringing all day: “Our members are opposed to it. There’s no one calling to support it, let’s put it that way.” Donohue is set to appear on Fox News’ Fox and Friends, and The Opie & Anthony Show, on Thursday.

I saw that episode just last night and LMAO!!! I could see it coming when I saw that picture of Jesus above the toilet (I believe it is a Rembrandt?? – he did quite a few) …it certainly isn’t a Roman Catholic Jesus! But, we get the point. One has to see the whole thing and follow what is going on before all that comes up with the weeping Jesus. Of course what also makes it amusing is that Larry David and the Seinfeld crew also in that episode are Jewish. Very funny. You can catch it on On Demand. It certainly shouldn’t offend non-Catholics. I thought it was a nice Protestant painting of what those folk thought the bible Jesus may have looked like. (But Bill, you don’t believe he existed in history?)

quote:

Originally posted by billbright:
'http://news-briefs.ew.com/2009/10/28/curb-your-enthusiasm-catholic-league-jesus/

Catholic League takes issue with 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' bathroom incident
by Mandi Bierly
Categories: Current Affairs, News, Television
The Catholic League, led by president Bill Donohue, is on the attack after last Sunday’s episode of HBO’s Curb Your Enthusiasm featured Larry David’s character accidentally spritzing a painting of Jesus hanging in a bathroom with a drop of urine as he relieved himself. In a statement, titled “Urinating on Jesus,” Donohue says, “At one point in the show, David goes to the bathroom in a Catholic home and splatters urine on a picture of Jesus; he doesn’t clean it off. Then a Catholic woman goes to the bathroom, sees the picture and concludes that Jesus is crying. She then summons her equally stupid mother and the two of them fall to their knees in prayer. When David and Jerry Seinfeld (playing himself) are asked if they ever experienced a miracle, David answers, ‘every erection is a miracle.’ That’s what passes for creativity these days. Was Larry David always this crude? Would he think it comedic if someone urinated on a picture of his mother?”
David, whose character did appear to be mortified by his predicament, has yet to return EW’s request for comment, but HBO has issued the followed statement: “Anyone who follows Curb Your Enthusiasm knows that the show is full of parody and satire. Larry David makes fun of everyone, most especially himself. The humor is always playful and certainly never malicious.” The network would not reveal how many emails Chairman and CEO Bill Nelson has received since Donohue shared his email address at the end of his statement, but HBO does tell EW that most of the emails followed some sort of form letter and that the senders seemed not to have seen the episode themselves.
Susan Fani, director of communications for the Catholic League, would not quantify the number of calls and emails its New York-based office has received about the episode, but says the phone has been ringing all day: “Our members are opposed to it. There’s no one calling to support it, let’s put it that way.” Donohue is set to appear on Fox News’ Fox and Friends, and The Opie & Anthony Show, on Thursday.

That sounds hilarious. I'm sorry I missed it. But who would be stupid enough to put a picture of someone they venerate over the toilet?

quote:

Originally posted by BobApril:

quote:

Originally posted by billbright:
...a demonstration by nearly 1,000 students protesting the rumored desecration of a Muslim holy book, the Quran, by U.S. troops during an operation two weeks ago in Wardak province...One of the demonstrators, who gave his name as Zabiullah, said "the people behind this humiliation should be arrested." "The actions of the university students are because the Quran is the law of our Islamic religion, and it has been desecrated," he said.

One of the strongest reasons I think we need to get out of the UN - they're bowing to Islamic pressure to make blasphemy a crime. And of course, the religious groups get to decide what constitutes blasphemy. I think a European Wiccan needs to file suit under one of these laws, charging publishers with defamation of religion for producing Bibles that contains Exodus 22:18 - "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Of course another translation of the phrase "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." is "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live."
A better translation for Hebrew word chasaph which was translated as witch is actually poisoner.

quote:

Originally posted by rayld2:
A better translation for Hebrew word chasaph which was translated as witch is actually poisoner.

Huh. I read that in Heinlein's "Job - A Comedy of Justice" but didn't realize he was using a real-world controversy. Doesn't change my suggestion, though - I have yet to see an English-language Bible that translates it as anything other than "witch."

quote:

Originally posted by BobApril:

quote:

Originally posted by rayld2:
A better translation for Hebrew word chasaph which was translated as witch is actually poisoner.

Huh. I read that in Heinlein's "Job - A Comedy of Justice" but didn't realize he was using a real-world controversy. Doesn't change my suggestion, though - I have yet to see an English-language Bible that translates it as anything other than "witch."

Isn't tradition wonderful? You can't change it even when it is WRONG because if you do you admit that the Bible is not inerrant.

Ever watch the so-called news on the 700 Club channel. I forced myself to watch it for half an hour this morning. Have you ever seen anything so spiteful? What's up with all the Christian hate, these days?

Also, does anyone think that UPI is a credible news service organization anymore?

Our choices for credible, unbiased news services have dwindled. Investigative stuff is limited to AP and Reuters, it seems. The death of so many papers is having a dreadful effect on news.

quote:

Originally posted by billbright:
Ever watch the so-called news on the 700 Club channel. I forced myself to watch it for half an hour this morning. Have you ever seen anything so spiteful? What's up with all the Christian hate, these days?

Also, does anyone think that UPI is a credible news service organization anymore?

Our choices for credible, unbiased news services have dwindled. Investigative stuff is limited to AP and Reuters, it seems. The death of so many papers is having a dreadful effect on news.

REal reporting started dying when the public service requirement for using the public specturm was removed and the newsrooms had to show BIG profits.
Newpapers are dying more from business manipulation than anything. The profits were good for years and then mergers and buyouts created so much debt that it became almost impossible to make a profit.