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Originally posted by AKinNC:
So this teacher decides that somehow it is a good idea to burn a cross onto one of his student's arms.

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The Liberty Council, affiliated with Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, launched its annual “Friend or Foe” Graduation Prayer Campaign on Tuesday. The group and the campaign seek “to educate and, if necessary, litigate to ensure that prayer and religious viewpoints are not suppressed.” But before Christians begin picketing graduations, we should ask an important question: could a push for religion in schools actually backfire?

Conservative organizations do need to fight for religious free speech. The ACLU is roving the country, devouring any case with even the slightest fragrance of progressivism, liberalism, and anti-Christian sentiments. But treating religion as a deposed king and advocating for its return to the throne within public schools might have far greater consequences than many realize.

A case in Mount Vernon, OH highlights the difficulty. There, the community is divided over middle school science teacher John Freshwater. His display of a Bible on his desk led to an investigation after some parents accused him of proselytizing. Understandably, people see this as an attack on Christianity and are outraged. But the local paper reported that many parents and students, in their fight for religious expression, have ignored the elephant in the science room: “Religion” means more than Christianity.

A fight for Christianity in schools is a fight for religious expression, and that includes religions other than Christianity. If Christianity is allowed in schools, there’s a strong case to afford Hinduism, Islam, and Wiccan the same opportunity. Christians advocating the Bible be put back in the classroom have to ask themselves if they are alright with the Book of Mormon receiving the same status. And as the Mount Vernon case shows, many are not.

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Originally posted by DragonRider01:
It becomes a simple issue after this type of revelation. Since he burned a cross onto the students arm is it now possible to charge him with physical child abuse? That would simplify the matter of the school firing him, it would seem.

I would sure try for that charge if he, or anyone else, did that to my child!

"Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps
127:1)

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Originally posted by Fightdirector:
It is instructive that, prior to the revelation of his burning the cross into school childrens' arms, many (including some on these Military.com's Forums) supported this "teacher" and claimed that he was being persecuted for his "Christian" beliefs....URL please...I would like to read the comments of those that backed him before...thanks Mr C...

They seem to be much quieter now...

"Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps
127:1)

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Originally posted by Whirled_Peas:
I've been following this case for a while, and I'm amazed that anyone wanted to defend this guy. At least there's now physical evidence.

Some people say that those of us who don't want religion taught in public schools are only talking about banning Christianity, but will give a "free pass" to any other religion. Not so. I think that the publicly funded schools that are starting to allow Islamic teachings to be presented in the classroom should be stopped too, or have their funding taken away.

I'll say it clearly, for those who can't read between the lines: I don't think that ANY religion should be taught in public schools. The only exception is to discuss the role of religion in history, social studies, or current events. That could potentially include listing facts about the religions in question, in the manner of, "This is what people of ______ religion believe," so that students can understand the history and social studies topics in-depth. Because the role of religion in history is often controversial, it might be best left to older grades where the children can understand the bigger picture.

Religion has no place in the science classroom. That goes for ALL religions. If a teacher wants to teach the Christian "creation story" as science, then every other "creation story" in the world should be given equal time. None of them fit the definition of "science" anyway, and I stand by the point that religion should be kept out of science classrooms. ANY RELIGION.

The reason why people are picking on Christianity so much is because, in this country, Christianity is the only one making a nation-wide push to have their religion taught in public schools as fact. I understand that not all Christians are pushing for this. Still, many of them are. We're not "persecuting Christianity". We're calling for equal treatment of all religions under the law. If a pagan teacher began teaching his or her version of the creation story in a classroom, I'd want that teacher stopped, or even fired. If a Hindu teacher began preaching in a public classroom, I'd want that stopped, too. I haven't heard cases of those things happening, but I have heard plenty of cases of Christian teachers using public school classrooms to push their religion.

At least this one guy got stopped, but look at what it took for people to actually catch and stop him! He went so far as to injure his students! How many people get away with pushing religion in public schools but aren't caught or stopped?

If anyone wants to say that I'm picking on Christians, then PLEASE cite an example of another religion pushing their views in the classroom, and I'll denounce that, too. I've already stated that I think the publicly-funded charter schools that are pushing Islam are functioning outside of the law, and that they would have to become completely private schools in order to continue functioning as they do.

I maintain that I do make exceptions for teaching *about* religions in the context of history or social studies, because religion DOES play a large role in those topics. For example, if a social studies teacher is talking about the issues that have plagued the Middle East, it might be necessary to discuss the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims in order to explain some of the social tension between the groups. The line is drawn when the teacher starts teaching the dogma and faith of the religion as fact.

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Originally posted by Whirled_Peas:
The reason why people are picking on Christianity so much is because, in this country, Christianity is the only one making a nation-wide push to have their religion taught in public schools as fact. I understand that not all Christians are pushing for this.
I think there is cause to say that CHristianity is being picked on. Let me state my reasoning. In this country of freedom to worship as we desire, anyone can CLAIM to be any religion without having anyone actually verify that what they are proposing is actually a part of that particular religion. In the case of Christianity, the brush is very wide. Now if we were to count all of the diversities of those who claim Christianity in this country the number is quite large. Now if we take the religious leaders that do push an agenda and count all of their "members" put it over the total number of those who claim Christianity, what do you think the resulting percentage would be? If the number is less than 20% then I would say that any statement that would define what CHristianity is doing would be inaccurate or do you disagree?

Still, many of them are. We're not "persecuting Christianity".
I would say there is a case for saying you are persecuting Christianity. The term many is normally taken to mean most. While in this case I think it is a very small but LOUD minority. Now if you would say that some leaders or even certain prominent CHristian leaders or certain Christian groups then I would say that you are being more accurate and it could not THEN be said than you are persecuting "followers of Christ" which is the intended definition of Christianity.

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Originally posted by whtetiger:

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Originally posted by Fightdirector:
It is instructive that, prior to the revelation of his burning the cross into school childrens' arms, many (including some on these Military.com's Forums) supported this "teacher" and claimed that he was being persecuted for his "Christian" beliefs....URL please...I would like to read the comments of those that backed him before...

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Every follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ suffers when someone like this, in your words, "gives us Christians a bad name".

And when the followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ remain silent and do not make it crystal clear that his actions and similar actions are not Christian but the actions of a fanatic who has twisted the teachings of Jesus Christ into a perversion, people the world over will "honestly think that normal every day folks...who happen to be Christians, act like this"

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Originally posted by sweetsuds:
Amen, Whirled, amen. Learning about religion is also useful in the study of the arts, as many great works were created for worship or otherwise inspired by religion. Instruction there can lead to greater knowledge about the purpose of the works, choice of medium or certain motifs, and other factors regarding the creation, use, and role of religious works of art in society.

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Originally posted by all4truth:
Blessings Whirled_Peas,

I hope your day has been good adn fruitful. Much of what you say has solid merit. But I would like you and everyone to really consider a point you made. I think you are in gross error. But that is just what my research has shown me.

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Originally posted by Whirled_Peas:
The reason why people are picking on Christianity so much is because, in this country, Christianity is the only one making a nation-wide push to have their religion taught in public schools as fact. I understand that not all Christians are pushing for this.
I think there is cause to say that CHristianity is being picked on. Let me state my reasoning. In this country of freedom to worship as we desire, anyone can CLAIM to be any religion without having anyone actually verify that what they are proposing is actually a part of that particular religion. In the case of Christianity, the brush is very wide. Now if we were to count all of the diversities of those who claim Christianity in this country the number is quite large. Now if we take the religious leaders that do push an agenda and count all of their "members" put it over the total number of those who claim Christianity, what do you think the resulting percentage would be? If the number is less than 20% then I would say that any statement that would define what CHristianity is doing would be inaccurate or do you disagree?

Still, many of them are. We're not "persecuting Christianity".
I would say there is a case for saying you are persecuting Christianity. The term many is normally taken to mean most. While in this case I think it is a very small but LOUD minority. Now if you would say that some leaders or even certain prominent CHristian leaders or certain Christian groups then I would say that you are being more accurate and it could not THEN be said than you are persecuting "followers of Christ" which is the intended definition of Christianity.

Hopefully, I have given you food for thought as you argued very forcefully against SilverBUsa when he tried to include you in a group through generalization. From reading your posts adn exchanging some discussion with you I do not thnk you intend to persecute Christianity but the manner in which you phrase your posts leaves you open to some validty for this claim.

Written in sincerity and with warmest regards,

LJ

p.s. IMHO to used a catch all phrase like Christianity and not the actual name fo the group or individual helps the offending party blend in and not be accountable for their actions. I say shed the light on them and put their actions out on the streets with their names prominantly attached to their actions.

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Originally posted by Fightdirector:

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Originally posted by whtetiger:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fightdirector:
It is instructive that, prior to the revelation of his burning the cross into school childrens' arms, many (including some on these Military.com's Forums) supported this "teacher" and claimed that he was being persecuted for his "Christian" beliefs....URL please...I would like to read the comments of those that backed him before...

quote:

Every follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ suffers when someone like this, in your words, "gives us Christians a bad name".

And when the followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ remain silent and do not make it crystal clear that his actions and similar actions are not Christian but the actions of a fanatic who has twisted the teachings of Jesus Christ into a perversion, people the world over will "honestly think that normal every day folks...who happen to be Christians, act like this"

"Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain." (Ps
127:1)

quote:

Originally posted by Whirled_Peas:
I've been following this case for a while, and I'm amazed that anyone wanted to defend this guy. At least there's now physical evidence.

Some people say that those of us who don't want religion taught in public schools are only talking about banning Christianity, but will give a "free pass" to any other religion. Not so. I think that the publicly funded schools that are starting to allow Islamic teachings to be presented in the classroom should be stopped too, or have their funding taken away.

I'll say it clearly, for those who can't read between the lines: I don't think that ANY religion should be taught in public schools. The only exception is to discuss the role of religion in history, social studies, or current events. That could potentially include listing facts about the religions in question, in the manner of, "This is what people of ______ religion believe," so that students can understand the history and social studies topics ...or, "This is what people of "descendents of monkeys"______ religion believe," so that students can understand the history and social studies topics in-depth. Because the role of religion in history is often controversial, it might be best left to older grades where the children can understand the bigger picture....then at what age would you suggest the controversial ToE be taught ?

Religion has no place in the science classroom. That goes for ALL religions. If a teacher wants to teach the Christian "creation story" as science, then every other "creation story" in the world should be given equal time. None of them fit the definition of "science" anyway, and I stand by the point that religion should be kept out of science classrooms. ANY RELIGION. Even an Atheist pushing the religion of The Theory Of Evolution?...it is not science but it has become a belief system.

The reason why people are picking on Christianity so much is because, in this country, Christianity is the only one making a nation-wide push to have their religion taught in public schools as fact. I understand that not all Christians are pushing for this. Still, many of them are. We're not "persecuting Christianity". We're calling for equal treatment of all religions under the law. If a pagan teacher began teaching his or her version of the creation story in a classroom, I'd want that teacher stopped, or even fired. If a Hindu teacher began preaching in a public classroom, I'd want that stopped, too. ...And the Atheist?... I haven't heard cases of those things happening, but I have heard plenty of cases of Christian teachers using public school classrooms to push their religion. ...then be consistent and stop ToE as fact.

At least this one guy got stopped, but look at what it took for people to actually catch and stop him! He went so far as to injure his students! How many people get away with pushing religion in public schools but aren't caught or stopped?I am glad this guy was stopped for injuring students.

If anyone wants to say that I'm picking on Christians, then PLEASE cite an example of another religion pushing their views in the classroom, and I'll denounce that, too. ...ToE...ideology... I've already stated that I think the publicly-funded charter schools that are pushing Islam are functioning outside of the law, and that they would have to become completely private schools in order to continue functioning as they do.

I maintain that I do make exceptions for teaching *about* religions in the context of history or social studies, because religion DOES play a large role in those topics. For example, if a social studies teacher is talking about the issues that have plagued the Middle East, it might be necessary to discuss the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims in order to explain some of the social tension between the groups. The line is drawn when the teacher starts teaching the dogma and faith of the religion as fact.Are you among the faithful of ToE as fact?

I am happy this guy was stopped, and on this we agree, but you ventured way off topic and I will join your ride for a short time
You are correct when you speak of when the line is drawn.
I agree with much of what you spoke of here in reguards to public schools but I can't help to conclude how you have opened the door to a very important contradiction in ethical terms of what is being allowed to be taught in public schools, that being the dogma and faith of the thoery of evolution as fact.
In the same respect with religion, it should not be allowed either, especially in todays times when its validity has been dismissed amongst the scholars as being fact. The original data in which it was introduced was flawed as was the interpretations. But that doesn't matter to its believers who can not bare to admit it.
Also, it is different in requards to other theories such as the theory of gravity, quantum physics,quantum mechanics...neither of these were set as conflicting or to denounce the existence of God or the origins of man. They have progressed and are valuable today, unlike the dogma of ToE. It really has gone nowhere in reguards to becoming scientific fact.
For those out there that have been force fed this faith and dogma of The Theory Of Evolution I mean no harm...you are free to believe what you choose. I just think the time has come to either get rid of teaching it or then allow all religions to be taught also in public school as an elective as should be the ToE.
When you say - "Because the role of religion in history is often controversial, it might be best left to older grades where the children can understand the bigger picture."
Then this should be also for the history of the dogma of ToE. It has now become an important part of history just as Einsteins notion of time travel, heh.
But neither should be taught as fact.
I believe both were introduced at a time of great confusion in our history, but everytime we look back into time we often see the same now don't we?...it's ok, we are human after all, but you are most correct that the role of public school should be to teach the facts.
...hmm, I wonder what harm it would be to allow religions as electives...this is a democracy...freedom to choose your own religion...hmm, imagine religions being taught in a secular setting as theories just like ToE...would we be going against seperation of church and state then...even if we relied on experts in the field...I wonder how wrong it could be...probably not any worse than being taught we have a family tree with the African ape...huh?

oh yeah, I see you added "art" to your quote - "I maintain that I do make exceptions for teaching *about* religions in the context of history or social studies, because religion DOES play a large role in those topics."

but, what about Anthropology, Psychology, Philosophy...?

- LegionSon -