Does anyone know if any of the SDFs have a funeral policy for non prior-service soldiers? I’m thinking along the lines of something like the VA’s program (mandated by Congress in 2000) of providing at least two service members at any veteran’s funeral for flag folding and presentation to the family—and the playing of Taps, of course.

I’m not suggesting that we try to get on the coat-tails of the US Armed Forces veterans, but it would be nice if our respective state legislatures passed laws that would allow for a state flag for the casket at the funeral/interment and Taps. Military honors such as three volleys and an honor guard/pallbearers would be nice too—if enough soldiers could be present at the service. Note that National Guard troops NOT on AGR or Active Duty for Training can be paid mileage and regular pay for the service time. The VA allows for a stipend for a bugler, but VSOs don’t get paid.

At any rate, again, does anyone know of an SDF having a funeral honors program?

Wobbly,
SGSC has an Honors Detail. I can't give you a lot of info, as I've only recently joined the SCSG, and I have participated in one funeral of a member of my unit with this group.

I am a bagpiper and I offered to play in conjunction with the Honors Detail normal order of service. I played Amazing Grace and Going Home once through while the casket flag was being folded, and the timing turned out well.

What I saw of the rest of the unit was very professional and squared away. A rifle team was present to fire the salute, personnel to fold and present the flag, and an electronic bugler for Taps. All top notch, even in the pouring rain and thunderstorm we had.

Again, I'm speaking just from brief conversations that day with the officers and NCO's on site, but I believe I heard them say that they average over 100 funerals per year - not sure if they support only SCSG, or other veterans.

There is also a Detachment of the Marine Corp League in Florence SC that organizes, along with other veteran's groups, a Veteran's Honor Guard to provide the same services to veterans. I participate as a piper with this group as well.

I believe there is a dearth presently of offical government resources for funerals, and I've attended several where only two or three uniformed personnel were present from the government for the flag folding and presentation, and a boom box was in the background playing Taps. This is the really sad part to me. The electronic bugle is one thing, but a boom box is simply unacceptable protocol as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure that someone from the SC unit would be happy to give you further details. You may also want to investigate with your local veterans groups. Good luck.

I'm really interested to hear also what other units do.

I seem to recall there being a California program, where California National Guardsmen are given similar honors. Written primarily for those CNG personnel who retire and pass on, I believe it also covers CASMR members. I can't be 100% sure of this, though.

The South Carolina State Guard does have an honor guard, which is available for veterans' and non-prior SCSG members' funerals. However, I believe that the members of the honor guard that execute the actual honors for a veteran (flag, volley, etc.) must be prior federal service.

I know the OHMR Chaplian Corp is trying to put something together to guaranty that all OHMR troops (former federal service and otherwise) get military honors at their funeral. As it is now, each unit makes an effort to provide an honor guard for its current and retired members. I was just in an honor guard for one of our former officers this past summer.

quote:

Does anyone know if any of the SDFs have a funeral policy for non prior-service soldiers?

WO: The OHMR Chaplin's Corp is trying to put together a program to guaranty that all OHMR members and former members, with prior federal service or not, have military honors at their funeral. At this point it is pretty much left up to the individual units to make sure the honor is extended to their current and former members.

Sorry about the double post but I did not see the earlier one come up after several hours and reposted.

lanzlaw-

Thanks for the update. Prior service folks are covered under VA, so OHMR would be adjunct to the federal benefit.

I'm wondering what flag could be used? The Ohio burgee would probably be most appropriate, I think, but how in the world would you drape it over the casket? Some kid got his eagle scout badge by developing a fold for the burgee, but it's really impractical to do at grave-side because it's A LOT of folding.

'Twould be nice, too, if OHMR would put together an approved Military Funeral Honors (MFH) team for OHMR and other funerals. Public Employees would get paid just by virtue of their 20+ allowable military days/year, but DoD/VA might provide a stipend as well under AP3. I think it's a mission that TAG would support.

However, I believe that the members of the honor guard that execute the actual honors for a veteran (flag, volley, etc.) must be prior federal service.

The federal requirements are a lot tougher then that:

quote:

(b) COMPOSITION OF FUNERAL HONORS DETAILS.

(1) The Secretary of each military department shall ensure that a funeral honors detail for the funeral of a veteran consists of two or more persons.

(2) At least two members of the funeral honors detail for a veteran’s funeral shall be members of the armed forces (other than members in a retired status), at least one of whom shall be a member of the armed force of which the veteran was a member. The remainder of the detail may consist of members of the armed forces (including members in a retired status) or members of veterans organizations or other organizations approved for purposes of this section under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense. Each member of the armed forces in the detail shall wear the uniform of the member’s armed force while serving in the detail.

Military Funeral Honors Law

That is a sub-page of Military Funeral Honors a DOD web site.

FWIW - My father, a Korean War vet, passed away in the last month. The funeral director took care of arranging the military funeral honors. I don't know how you hook up with funeral directors but any program you put together would have to be known to them.

Indiana Guard Reserve has a Funeral Honors program for those Soldiers of the IGR, or so I have been told. The only State funerals I have ever seen in Indiana were for two (2) Generals here in Indiana oth were NG Generals and that was about 19 years ago. They were really something,the ANG flew missing man formations as did a Huey unit ,the riderless Horse with the boots in backward and the empty scabbard, an Artillary unit fired there was the divisional band marching and a company of Infantry marching behind the caisson,everyone was in Blues. If I remember correctly,it was the AG himself, he had been killed in an accident. Very sad but very Beautiful.

Thanks for the info, FL51D7. Great link!

For anyone participating with an honor guard unit, or other veterans groups providing this service, I have a bit of new info.

I will be playing bagpipes with the Veterans Honor Gaurd (organized by the local Marine Corp League) at one of the National Cemeteries in SC on Veteran's Day. We had planned a really nice service along with some other groups, which was to include gun salute, a flag folding ceremony, and the reading of the poem (sorry don't recall the title) that gives a meaning to each of the folds.

Our leadership just got a letter from the VA that prohibits us from reading of this poem at this service, and states that it can only be read at the express request of a deceased veteran's family for any future services held. the reason given is that it has the mention of God in it. One verse mentions that one fold represents the Trinity for Christians, and another verse says that a fold represents part of the Star of David for Jews, so this is what they are referring to.


Now I don't blame the local folks as they are just carrying out what has been mandated from Washington, but as the letter was read, I looked around me at the headstones standing in silent ranks, with a Cross on the vast majority, and a few Stars of David as well, and it really hit home how far we have come from what the majority of these men served and in many cases died for.

I know the argument about establishment of religion by government, but it seems to me that we do have a government established religion now - atheism.. It is mandated at every turn.

Wanting to get the word out about this situation, and see if anyone else has encountered this as well.

Happy upcoming Veteran's Day to you all. Thank a Vet every opportunity you get.

Engineerin'woman

I think I found the poem that you are referring to. See the bottom of How To Fold The Flag, in the section "Unofficial Flag Folding Ceremony". The poem is unnofficial - as the site states:

quote:

While the following unofficial script for flag folding doesn't appear in the Flag Code and has religious references, it is very popular among many patriots...

There is a shorter version of the poem.

BTW - I'm not sure about this particular group but the word 'patriots' as used here is often a code word used by the dreaded 'rump militias' for themselves.

Next item - the poem itself does not have an author or attribution. It very well may be a political/religious propanganda piece by the 'code-worded groups'. The tactic would be to get innocent real patriots all worked up over their propaganda piece by hiding its origin.

And there are more then 2 references to God in the 'poem'.

2nd fold 'eternal life' - implied reference
4th fold 'His divine guidance'
11th fold - God of Abraham reference
12th fold - Christian reference
13th fold - "In God We Trust".

And among those who might object to the reading of such a poem you might find Atheists in Foxholes They died for their country and are also are also commemorated. Then there are the Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, Native Americans et al who the poem leaves out.

In reply to FL51D7, I offer the following.

First, this topic is getting a great deal of coverage in the current news section of this board. Seems I'm not the only one upset and concerned about this, and the latest is that the VA has reversed itself, saying now that it will not prohibit volunteer honor guards or other non VA employees from reading the poem.

As for the fact that it is unattributed, or anonymous, if we excluded all of the anonymous literature, poems, etc, or questioned their intent or credibility simply becuase of this basis, ours would be a very poor culture indeed. I won't give the lengthy list of things that would be cut out here, but I'm sure that you would find something in it you would miss.

Second, let me address the term "patriot" in the poem. There is a strict set of rules surrounding who is entitled to a US flag on the coffin at death, and the accompanying honor guard. Patriot obviously referrs to those who defended this flag and earned this right. I'd be willing to bet that those Red Coats considered Francis Marion and his men as "rump militia," or whatever that term means. And I doubt that any today would consider them anything other than patriots. It may have been authored by some group of ill repute, but to me the likelihood of this is about as likely as pigs flying. I haven't had the time to research the poem, but the version that I have heard is one that I find nothing objectionable in. Yes I am a Christian and proud to say so, and I have friends who are Jewish, Hindu, and even some agnostics thrown in. And we are all adult enough to respect each others observances, and simply ignore the parts that we don't wish to partake in.

And I don't question that there were and are atheists in foxholes, and elsewhere who served honorably. I would bet that they would say they offered their blood so that they could be what they were and the rest of us likewise. To mention God is not to denigrate or deny those who deny his existence, any more than for someone who is hungry and eats a meal is to destroy someone else's diet.

My protest in this whole episode is the restriction of free speech of a volunteer honor guard, and the thereby state mandated religion of atheism. It is simply disgusting and has been rightly overturned.

quote:

I'd be willing to bet that those Red Coats considered Francis Marion and his men as "rump militia," or whatever that term means.

No Sir. They were not rump, they were a duly authorized and commissioned part of the militia of the colony/state of South Carolina. Rumps no way, the Redcoats would have looked at them as rabble (as professional soldiers in the Royal Army considered all militia (and some in the regular USA still do))and also as bloody rebels, but not "rumps".

Dear Lanzlaw,

Sorry if you got the impression that I was calling them "rump." First, I guess I'm so new to the board I'm not familiar with what exactly "rump" means hear. I took it as what you described in your post, basically rabble and something of low repute.

I know all about the gallant Marion and his men, as I had two ancestors who fought with him, one of who was commissioned and the other a private soldier. And they certainly weren't what Tarleton cosidered them to be.

Please enlighten me on the "rump" terminology, so I won't be uninformed. I'm fairly new the the SDF word (recently commissioned in the SCSG), so I'm sure there is still a lot to learn.

Sorry to bring the thread back on topic, but I'm guessing from the responses, the Indiana Guard Reserve (IGR) is the only SDF to have a program. Too bad.