I do have a question about the CAP. What is the association between the CAP and the active Air Force?

I know that the CAP has auxillary officers, but are they to be given the same customs and courtesies as real officers by active military?

I know they are voluntary, but how do they fit in with the normal Air Force?

I know there is a cadet program with ranks C/AB to C/Col, do they hold any weight against the real rank?

I guess all these questions boil down to this, if I am out and about and run into a group of CAP members, both cadets and auxillary, what do I do? What do they do? I only ask because in this town and in my home town, the CAP are everywhere.

If you are in the Military and in uniform and encounter CAP officers it's different than if you meet up with Military Officers. If Cadets salute you they will be gratified if you return the salute. CAP officers join and go through the CAP training but don't instinctively have a sense that professional behavior is expected of them. If you choose to salute them they will probably be pleased and return the salute. If they forget to salute back I would just brush it off. We have Air Force Reserve, Army Reserve and many former Military in our wing. It's good because they set a good example. I hope that what you see in CAP is good as well. BRgds,

If you are enlisted real military nothing is required no matter the rank of CAP officer, though you could initiate a salute if you like.

If you are an officer, the CAP members are required to salute you. You can return it if you like.

CAP officers have no authority over any member of the Armed Forces no matter the rank of the CAP officer.

CAP officers become so simply by joining CAP. They are civilians, hold no commission, and no salute is required when you pass them. The ones that arn't civilians fall under those rules while wearing a CAP uniform.

quote:

CAP officers become so simply by joining CAP.

Well, technically not. When you join you become a senior member without grade and have to jump through a few minor hurdles before becoming a CAP 2nd Lt.

Current and former military enlisted can decide to become a CAP NCO at their hightest military enlisted rank.

Is cap considered part of the government? I know that might be a dumb question, but does being in cap help with getting a government job? Is it something employers might know about or even take into consideration?

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Originally posted by 11984909:
Is cap considered part of the government? I know that might be a dumb question, but does being in cap help with getting a government job? Is it something employers might know about or even take into consideration?

Depends on who is doing the considering. CAP itself considers itself to be a part of the government until it has some disadvantage, like being subject to the Freedom of Information Act, and then they will tell you in a heartbeat that they are a private corporation. One way of looking at it is that CAP is a Nationally Chartered Charitable Corporation that does extensive contract work for the US Government, and is partially government supported. <stifling overwhelming impulse to say "like Halliburton.">

As for having it on your resume, it can't hurt. I have had employers remark positively about my CAP experiences, I have never had a negative comment. I was lucky enough in my early years in CAP to have an employer who would give me substantial amounts of time to attend corporate schools, he thought they were very valuable. So join, it will make you a better person if it doesn't get you a job right away.

CAP is not part of the government, though during certain activities its members receive some of the same protections (insurance, death benefits, etc) as federal government employees. Some states also extend similar benefits to CAP members under certain conditions.

I don't think CAP would help in getting any government jobs any more than service in another volunteer organization would unless you're trying to get a job in emergency management. Might be more helpful there.

To clarify an earlier comment, CAP officers salute officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to them. A CAP Captain would initiate a salute to a USAF Major, but a CAP Captain would not initiate a salute to a USAF 1st Lieutenant. That USAF 1st Lt. could (if they wanted--it is not required) initiate a salute to the CAP Captain which the CAP Captain would have to return.

Source CAPP151 2(b)(2)

quote:

Originally posted by RiverAux:
To clarify an earlier comment, CAP officers salute officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to them. A CAP Captain would initiate a salute to a USAF Major, but a CAP Captain would not initiate a salute to a USAF 1st Lieutenant. That USAF 1st Lt. could (if they wanted--it is not required) initiate a salute to the CAP Captain which the CAP Captain would have to return.

Source CAPP151 2(b)(2)

The problem is that CAP officers do not hold "rank". A CAP Captain is not senior in rank to a USAF First Lieutenant.

A USAF Second Lieutenant is actually senior in rank to a CAP Major General. Which holds a rank, and which doesn't? If that section was worded "senior in grade to you", then I could agree with you. However, CAPP 151 does make the distinction between "military rank" and "CAP grade" (as well as CAPR 35-5).

Ken - Regarding CAP replies...all are correct but there is an exception overlooked by all - if col pineda comes through the main gate don't forget to bow.

quote:

Originally posted by MSgtBillStengle:
Ken - Regarding CAP replies...all are correct but there is an exception overlooked by all - if col pineda comes through the main gate don't forget to bow.

Can I curtesy?

quote:

Originally posted by DeputyDog02:
The problem is that CAP officers do not hold "rank". A CAP Captain is not senior in rank to a USAF First Lieutenant.

True. However, CAP officers should hold rank and not grade, because rank is not indicative of command authority and is not exclusive to the military. NOTE: I said CAP officers should hold rank, not outrank military officers.

There are lots of police officers and firemen who hold rank within their departments. Why should it be different for CAP? Why complicate things and make it harder for the military to understand the workings of CAP? I'll give you an example:

I was once on the phone with an ANG MSgt and when I asked him what grade is required to become a loadmaster, he had no clue what I was talking about. But when I asked him what rank was required for the job, he then knew what I was talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by DeputyDog02:
A USAF Second Lieutenant is actually senior in rank to a CAP Major General. Which holds a rank, and which doesn't?

Yes. Even a USAF Airman Basic is senior in rank to a CAP Major General. That's why the Airman Basic has no obligation to salute the CAP Major General. And believe me, if I were an Air Force airman, I would not salute general Pineda!

quote:

Originally posted by DeputyDog02:
If that section was worded "senior in grade to you", then I could agree with you. However, CAPP 151 does make the distinction between "military rank" and "CAP grade" (as well as CAPR 35-5).

Yes, and there is a problem with that. As stated before, rank is not indiciative of command authority, and is not exclusive to the military. A rank is simply a level in an organization. CAPP 151 needs to be changed to replace "grade" with "rank."

CAP officers can still hold rank without being commissioned, and should because CAP NCO's do hold rank in CAP. Why? Because they earned it in the military and carried it over to CAP.

Someone once tried to convince me that military personnel do not outrank CAP personnel because the military does not outrank civilians. Not true. So long as CAP members wear military uniforms and are identified as Air Force Auxiliarists (or even associated with the Air Force), then they are included in the rank structure as junior to military and DoD personnel (even though CAP is not in the Air Force Total Force Structure).

If CAP personnel were not allowed to wear a miltary uniform and were not associated with the military, they would be out of the rank structure and not obligated to observe customs and courtesies. But since they do, they hold rank. It's just subordinate to the military rank structure.

quote:

Originally posted by DeputyDog02:

quote:

Originally posted by RiverAux:
To clarify an earlier comment, CAP officers salute officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to them. A CAP Captain would initiate a salute to a USAF Major, but a CAP Captain would not initiate a salute to a USAF 1st Lieutenant. That USAF 1st Lt. could (if they wanted--it is not required) initiate a salute to the CAP Captain which the CAP Captain would have to return.

Source CAPP151 2(b)(2)

The problem is that CAP officers do not hold "rank". A CAP Captain is not senior in rank to a USAF First Lieutenant.

A USAF Second Lieutenant is actually senior in rank to a CAP Major General. Which holds a rank, and which doesn't? If that section was worded "senior in grade to you", then I could agree with you. However, CAPP 151 does make the distinction between "military rank" and "CAP grade" (as well as CAPR 35-5).

Yes, CAP officers hold rank -- CAP rank. Not hard to figure out. I'm not sure what problem you're referring to. CAP regulations do not require that all CAP members salute all military officers, just the ones senior to us in their rank. If the AF wanted it to be done differently, they could demand it, especially when the CAP member is in an AF-style uniform.

I was just stating what our regulations say, not making a value judgement about them.

quote:

Originally posted by RiverAux:
Yes, CAP officers hold rank -- CAP rank. Not hard to figure out.

Where does it say we hold rank? I can only find references to us holding "grade".

quote:

I'm not sure what problem you're referring to.

I was pointing out the problem in your arguement. If we are required to salute all armed forces officers that are senior in rank to us, then no matter what grade you are in CAP, you will be saluting every officer you come across in the Armed Forces, from WO-1 on up.

quote:

CAP regulations do not require that all CAP members salute all military officers, just the ones senior to us in their rank.

Since our officers only hold grade, that makes every single Armed Forces officer senior in "rank" to us.

For example, an Army Corporal and an Army Specialist are the same grade. However, the Army Corporal is senior in "rank" to the Army Specialist.

Go back thirty years to when the Army had Specialist Grades Five and Six. A Specialist Grade Six was an E-6, so the SP6 held the same grade as a Staff Sergeant. However, the SP6 was not a non-commissioned officer, so an Army Corporal outranked the Specialist Grade Six.

Nothing in our regulations indicate that we hold rank in CAP. We hold grade. There is not one single usage of the word "rank" in CAPR 35-5. The word "grade" is used very liberally throughout it.

Our promotions (if done correctly), all say something like, "John Doe has been promoted to the grade of second lieutenant...".

CAPP 151 does say we are supposed to emulate the use of rank in place of grade for customs and courtesies internally. However, that section you quoted does say that we salute all armed forces officers senior in "rank" to us.

So we salute all armed forces officers, since they are all senior in rank to us.

quote:

If the AF wanted it to be done differently, they could demand it, especially when the CAP member is in an AF-style uniform.

They don't have to, since it is already in our regulations. I've had a few discussions with some CAP-RAPS over this, and what I'm arguing is how they see it.

quote:

I was just stating what our regulations say, not making a value judgement about them.

I'm not making a value judgement either. I am stating what the regulations say as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Guardrail256:
True. However, CAP officers should hold rank and not grade, because rank is not indicative of command authority and is not exclusive to the military. NOTE: I said CAP officers should hold rank, not outrank military officers.

There are lots of police officers and firemen who hold rank within their departments. Why should it be different for CAP?

Those police and fire departments do not wear Air Force uniforms and don't work with the Air Force on an organizational and sometimes an individual level.

quote:

Why complicate things and make it harder for the military to understand the workings of CAP? I'll give you an example:

I was once on the phone with an ANG MSgt and when I asked him what grade is required to become a loadmaster, he had no clue what I was talking about. But when I asked him what rank was required for the job, he then knew what I was talking about.

That is not an example of making it difficult for armed forces personnel to understand the workings of CAP. That is an example of an individual CAP member not understanding the terms the military uses.

What would be more complicated, an armed forces officer hearing a CAP officer saying "I hold rank as a major", or that same guy saying, "I hold grade as a major"? Grade is more indicative of what "major" or "second lieutenant" means in CAP. It seems easier the way we do it now.

quote:

CAP officers can still hold rank without being commissioned, and should because CAP NCO's do hold rank in CAP. Why? Because they earned it in the military and carried it over to CAP.

Actually, CAP NCOs do not hold rank in CAP. Do commissioned officers that join CAP hold rank in CAP as officers? No. They all hold grade in CAP. It is the same for CAP NCOs.

Oh puhleezee.
If they meant for all CAP members to salute all military officers they would have said so and there would have been no reason to bring up the "rank" of the CAP member at all.

quote:

Originally posted by RiverAux:
Oh puhleezee.
If they meant for all CAP members to salute all military officers they would have said so and there would have been no reason to bring up the "rank" of the CAP member at all.

Again, all military officers "outrank" all CAP officers. I have laid out my explanation above.

We don't hold "rank". If we did, it would be outlined in CAPR 35-5. Instead, grade is used. So the way it is worded in CAPP 151, we salute all military officers. Why? Because all military officers are senior in "rank" to us.

If saluting a military officer who is senior in rank to you (if we had rank) was an issue, then they would have better defined the status of the flight officer grades. However, it doesn't matter if they are considered above or below warrant officers in terms of rank because we don't hold rank. A CAP flight officer salutes a WO1 just like a CAP major general should.

Maybe ten years ago, I addressed a certain infamous Major General, CAP as "Tony" and he informed me very quickly and in no uncertain terms that he was to be addressed as "Colonel." Recently, this same individual has been involved in a scandal, and in true CAP protocol, the other protagonist in this scandal has been trashed as a self important flawed individual. I became curious, and stumbled on the folloowing website:

http://vdo1.us/CAPI2BEmails.html

There is a lot here that is self serving, and I find the references to himself in the third person confusing, but just reading the emails is very educational. It gives a totally different perspective on the events from what has been presented on the discussion boards.

Okay, here is the rule:

quote:

You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to
you.

Now, if you are right and CAP members have no rank, how can the above make any sense?

If CAP members have no rank, then no one is senior in rank to any CAP member. For example, a AF Major is not senior in rank to a Mr. John Smith, local garage mechanic since "rank" doesn't apply to Mr. Smith.

So, for the above quote to make any sense, the term rank HAS to apply to CAP members.

Obviously, this is just another example of CAP regulations that have not been well meshed. I am positive that some point CAP will get around to replacing the word rank with grade in this pamphlet in order to match our other regulations.