.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: NikolaiStrugatsky,

quote:

Originally posted by NikolaiStrugatsky:
I know... a lot of crazy stuff happens to me in CAP...

I am currently a C/TSgt, and this happened a while ago, but its still on my mind. On my first 3 achievements, I missed C/ Honor Society by 1 question!!! (ONE QUESTION!) It really annoyed me, due to the fact that I would be the first cadet in FLWG to get it on the first 3 achievements, and that I missed it by such a slight margin. Any advice on how to cope? (I know, a lot of you are probably thinking I'm a wimp, but I take CAP really seriously).

How to cope? Its the past, you can't change it, just do your best in the future.

Don't worry about it; not a big deal at all. Especially when the 52-16 doesn't make any mention of a cadet honor society anywhere, and does not allow wings to come up with their own honor societies.

I'm assuming this is just a Florida Wing thing, just as the "CAP Rangers" is a Pennsylvania Wing thing.

Each wing does things differently, and that is okay (to a point). But when you have wings coming up with cadet honor societies, CAP rangers and other things you never find anywhere in regulations, the line has been crossed.

Why can't people just run the program the way it was designed without making stuff up? Seriously, folks - why can't they just run the program the way it was intended?

Nik, just move on. This is just one of many diappointments you will have in your life. Forget about it. It's not important. The only important Honor Society is your school's. Just relax. Concentrate on your studies. Do the best that you can. That is all that they ask.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mddfsoldier,

quote:

Originally posted by Guardrail256:
Especially when the 52-16 doesn't make any mention of a cadet honor society anywhere, and does not allow wings to come up with their own honor societies.

I haven't read CAPM 52-16 recently. Do you have a specific cite that prohibits a wing from forming a honor society?

.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: NikolaiStrugatsky,

Others have missed by 1 - sorry to burst your bubble but you were told wronng, nick. Don't sweat the small stuff and this is not that important when you see the bigger picture.It will help you become mentally tougher to experience some setbacks along the way. This is Work on your Mitchell books and go on with your life.Hang in there.

quote:

Originally posted by NikolaiStrugatsky:
Actually, honor society is a national thing (I think). You get a gold and blue shoulder chord, and you put it on your resume. The academies really like it.

No, if it was a national thing it would be in CAPR 52-16. I was in CAP 8 years as a cadet and never heard of a "Cadet Honor Society."

CAPR 52-16 is the definitive authority on CAP Cadet Programs. If it ain't in there, it ain't authorized.

Apparently, some folks down in Florida don't care about that. What a pity.

quote:

Originally posted by NikolaiStrugatsky:
To tell the truth, it kind of is a big deal, because only 71 cadets have made it out of the thousands of cadets in the wing. I would have been the first out of all the cadets in the history of CAP to get it on the first three achievements. Oh well, what can you do? Better luck next time I guess...

Nikolai, you gotta look at the bigger picture here. I know you are really focused on CAP and all, but CAP is just one fraction of the equation in your well-roundedness.

Whoever taught you that success in CAP or life is contingent on being a member of the cadet honor society is messing with your head. It sounds like this cadet honor society thing has created some sort of an elitist mentality that doesn't belong.

There are 2 big reasons why this isin't a big deal.

1) There is no official "Cadet Honor Society" in CAP and no provision in regulations for the creation of one at any level within the organization.

2) You cannot be denied promotion, attendance at an activity, or continued participation in CAP because you didn't make it into the cadet honor society.

I don't even know what the purpose of the "Florida Wing Cadet Honor Society" is, anyway. I know they like to call their basic encampment cadets "doolies", which is also a no-no. Are the Cadet Programs folks in Florida trying to make the CAP Cadet Program there more like an academy than the CAP Cadet Program created by national?

Why can't they just run the program as it was intended? Seriously - why make it more complicated than it has to be?

Nik,

Keep on charging, this was just a stumble not a crash.

Take what Guardrail says with a grain of salt, or several. There are many things that are not mentioned in CAPR 52-16 such as sqdn FTXs, a pizza night instead of a formal mtg just to name a few. The Honor Society is a FLWG thing and if they choose to recognize outstanding cadets that way it is their call. Unlike the 39-1 that specifically states if it isn't in there it isn't authorized the 52-16 doesn't say that. It only states that you can't have a supplement or waiver to CAPR 52-16 without authorization from NHQ.

Like Guardrail, I am an ex cadet and have remained active in CAP for many yrs. I have also met him in person and have observed him at many activities.

Like I said hang in there. This was just a little bump in the road.

quote:

Originally posted by NikolaiStrugatsky:
They call us worthless, doolies, PT us to death, scream at us, harass us, and get pissed off if we do anything wrong. But hey, thats why I joined CAP!!! I need to get tough, and CAP helps a lot! A lot tougher than JROTC, USNSCC, and the Young Marines, at least in my squadron. So yes, it is quite like an academy.

Also, how is it not authorized? We put it on our resume, get a distinctive shoulder chord, the squadron must send a form to the Wing Commander, the wing commander must approve it, there is a whole formal process, etc.

Sounds like hazing to me. But hey, what do I know...

quote:

Originally posted by NikolaiStrugatsky:
They call us worthless, doolies, PT us to death, scream at us, harass us, and get pissed off if we do anything wrong. But hey, thats why I joined CAP!!! I need to get tough, and CAP helps a lot! A lot tougher than JROTC, USNSCC, and the Young Marines, at least in my squadron. So yes, it is quite like an academy.

Also, how is it not authorized? We put it on our resume, get a distinctive shoulder chord, the squadron must send a form to the Wing Commander, the wing commander must approve it, there is a whole formal process, etc.

Pretty much everything you just described is unauthorized, and in fact some of it is quite prohibited. Not that I'm surprised it's happening.

quote:

Originally posted by Guardrail256:
If it ain't in there, it ain't authorized.

I think you are really off base here as to what 52-16 is actually for. It outlines the goals and MINIMUM requirements of the cadet program and how those minimum requirements are to be implemented.

If it was a restrictive regulation they wouldn't have to put restrictions in it - like for sky-diving.

In fact, the CP would be pretty boring if you could only do what is in 52-16.

quote:

It sounds like this cadet honor society thing has created some sort of an elitist mentality that doesn't belong.

I think it is as elitist as having a cadet of the month program or awarding a commander's commendation. It is a way to motivate a cadet to excel academically. Apparently it is working if the cadets are trying this hard to 'get in.'

Many wings have a "Physical Fitness Challenge" to motivate the cadets to do more PT than is outlined in 52-16. They can win awards and such. Is that elitist too? I don't think so. It is a way of recognizing achievement, not a way of getting people to think they're better than anyone else.

quote:

1) There is no official "Cadet Honor Society" in CAP and no provision in regulations for the creation of one at any level within the organization.

There doesn't have to be provisions to create a Cadet Honor Society. If FLWG made it official, it is official in that wing. The corporate officer in charge of that wing obviously supports it because he went so far as to also authorize a distinctive shoulder cord for it.


"Nikolai" Because of your repeated statements and allusions to hazing in your unit, I have sent a notification to CAP NHQ asking them to investigate. Your descriptions describe obvious violations of the Cadet Protection Policy, and I think they should be looked in to.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JimmyDeano,

Apparently there is:
http://flwg.us/CAPR_52-16__Sup_1_1DEC06.pdf

Looks like an approved supplement to me...

quote:

Originally posted by EclipseJTFK:
Apparently there is:
http://flwg.us/CAPR_52-16__Sup_1_1DEC06.pdf

Looks like an approved supplement to me...

It was approved by the Wing/CC, but I didn't see anything saying it was approved by NHQ. CAPR 52-16 states "Supplements and waivers are not authorized, except as specifically noted or when approved by National Headquarters." So either they have NHQ approval and it's legit or they don't and it's invalid. It would have been better to create it as a wing policy rather than a supp to a CAP Reg.

quote:

Originally posted by JimmyDeano:
Many wings have a "Physical Fitness Challenge" to motivate the cadets to do more PT than is outlined in 52-16. They can win awards and such. Is that elitist too? I don't think so.

The "Physical Fitness Challenge" is outlined in CAPP 52-18, so it should be standardized for all the wings.

quote:

Originally posted by NikolaiStrugatsky:
Actually, honor society is a national thing (I think). You get a gold and blue shoulder chord, and you put it on your resume. The academies really like it.

They call us worthless, doolies, PT us to death, scream at us, harass us, and get pissed off if we do anything wrong. But hey, thats why I joined CAP!!! I need to get tough, and CAP helps a lot! A lot tougher than JROTC, USNSCC, and the Young Marines, at least in my squadron. So yes, it is quite like an academy.

Nikolai: As an USAFA ALO I can tell you that being in the FL Wing (it is not a National thing) "Honor Society" isn't going to make much of a difference for the Academies. Mitchell/Earhart/Spaatz as well as National Honor Society at school do make a difference and that is what you should be striving for.

The treatment you mentioned IS NOT like an Academy, but wannabe Academy cadets attempting to imitate what they think the Academies are. There is a difference between yelling orders and screaming at cadets, and between getting pissed off and correcting things that are wrong. Hopefully you will learn from these BAD examples and set a good example for other cadets.

quote:

Originally posted by masamuel2:
It was approved by the Wing/CC, but I didn't see anything saying it was approved by NHQ. CAPR 52-16 states "Supplements and waivers are not authorized, except as specifically noted or when approved by National Headquarters." So either they have NHQ approval and it's legit or they don't and it's invalid. It would have been better to create it as a wing policy rather than a supp to a CAP Reg.

Even if it was created as a wing policy, there would still have to be something in writing. I have not seen any memorandums authorizing the creation of a cadet honor society in Florida Wing.

So the invalidation of the "suppliment" to CAPR 52-16 and the absence of an official memo authorizing the cadet honor society in Florida Wing prove to me that this cadet honor society is not authorized.

Of course, there are cadet leadership schools which vary from wing to wing, such as California Wing's ILP and Texas Wing's STEP programs. I think National should add a chapter to CAPR 52-16 that is devoted to standardizing these cadet leadership schools, which do seem to be authorized.

There is a difference between creating cadet leadership schools with the goal of strengthening leadership and character and creating a cadet honor society which doesn't seem to serve much purpose except to create an elitist mentality within the cadets of the wing and make them think that the service academies actually think it's a big deal.

Once again, I ask myself why people try to go off the beaten path and make up their own stuff rather than just go with what has been established. It's better to go with what has been established and succeed than to experiment with something totally new (that NHQ has not authorized) and mess things up.

quote:

Originally posted by masamuel2:
The "Physical Fitness Challenge" is outlined in CAPP 52-18, so it should be standardized for all the wings.

I concur, sir. There are no "CAP Special Forces" (despite what the Hawk Mountain Rangers may think) so there is no need (or allowance) for physical training which is different from what is in CAPP 52-18.

quote:

Originally posted by masamuel2:
Nikolai: As an USAFA ALO I can tell you that being in the FL Wing (it is not a National thing) "Honor Society" isn't going to make much of a difference for the Academies. Mitchell/Earhart/Spaatz as well as National Honor Society at school do make a difference and that is what you should be striving for.

The treatment you mentioned IS NOT like an Academy, but wannabe Academy cadets attempting to imitate what they think the Academies are. There is a difference between yelling orders and screaming at cadets, and between getting pissed off and correcting things that are wrong. Hopefully you will learn from these BAD examples and set a good example for other cadets.

Absolutely, Captain Samuel. Thank you so much for posting this and setting the record straight for Nikolai and everyone else reading this thread.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Guardrail256,

quote:

The treatment you mentioned IS NOT like an Academy, but wannabe Academy cadets attempting to imitate what they think the Academies are. There is a difference between yelling orders and screaming at cadets, and between getting pissed off and correcting things that are wrong. Hopefully you will learn from these BAD examples and set a good example for other cadets.

Exactly. Having been to USNA (hence the "Midn" in my name), and having come from an NJROTC background where we occasionally tried doing the things Nikolai described, I can say from experience that there is NO value in having CAP or JROTC cadets scream at and harass each other. They see it on TV and in movies and emulate that behavior to be more "military," but what they're missing is that the Marine Corps DI they saw running those recruits through the grinder has YEARS or even DECADES of experience and training (yes, very SPECIFIC and SCIENTIFIC training) that guides what he's doing. A high school kid just isn't going to be able to even approximate what that Marine is really doing to his recruits, which is shaping them, not bludgeoning them. THAT is why the behavior you described, Nik, is strictly prohibited. I hope that the upper echelons of CAP have been straightened out enough at this point that the senior members in charge at your unit get thoroughly investigated and corrected.

Very unlikely that they have fixed it yet. I had to leave CAP in 2005 because CAP wouldent honor thier agreement through whistleblower and my wing had gotten tired of the problems I was bringing to thier attention. Thier solution was to ask me not to continue coming to meetings. I had been selected as NESA staff that year and couldent go.

Thier loss though, I was the only person in my composite squadron who had a GTM, ES, COMM, or a pilot rating and I had them all.

A lot of what I have said is an over exaggeration, or un-true. Please delete all postings refrencing me or my squadron. IT IS NOT TRUE. I am sorry.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: NikolaiStrugatsky,

Yikes, sounds like someone woke up with equine parts in his bed!