In my unit, a cadet just joined who has a serious problem. He is undisciplined, uncooporative, overactive, and above all, obsessed with Russia. We have tried everything we can think of to get him to understand the disciplined nature of our program! We started by asking him to calm down, we explained that his actions were inappropriate, we even tried PTing him to death... (not exactly per CAP policy, but...) He will either ignore commands, or say, "I don't have to listen to you!"
Before we see about kikcking him out, do any of you have any ideas for instilling some discipline in him from your experiences? Pretty much anything that doesn't fall under the category of abuse would do...

He clearly doesn't belong in your program. It's admirable that you want to help him become more functional in society, but you're limited in what you can legally do. When a cadet presents the "you can't make me" attitude consistently, he clearly doesn't want to be in CAP; if he doesn't want to be in, he shouldn't be - otherwise he'll just drag things down for the rest.

You've already reached the limits of what you can do, as evidenced by your "PTing him to death" which is considered hazing and violates more than just CAP policy...

We had kids like this in my NJROTC unit a decade ago (getting old, ugh), and they never stayed past the first year. The NSI simply had a conference with the parents (if they cared), asked both the cadet and the parents why the cadet is in the program, and if something along the lines of the cadet wanting to be in it was not among the reasons, he was gone before the end of the year. As an instructor, your authority over a juvenile only extends as far as your ability to take something away from them; and if they don't want to be in your program you have nothing to take away. The NSI wisely chose to simply not fight that battle rather than risk becoming impotent before the entire unit. He was too valuable to those of us who wanted to learn from him than to risk that.

Very good advice, but here's the thing... He wants to be in CAP. The real kicker is that I am the Recruiting and Retention officer, so on the first day, I told him of all the great benefits of the program, and got him real excited about joining. This was all before we knew what he was like. Since then, we have found out what he is like, and his Flight Sergeant isn't too happy with me now. Even our Squadron Commander is getting ticked! He said (not to his face) that we need to get the little puke out of the unit.
It's really too bad that he is such a insolent little spaz, he seemed so excited about the program that I thought for sure he would make an ideal cadet. Perhaps we will see about speaking with his mother...

quote:

Originally posted by SgtParent:
and his Flight Sergeant isn't too happy with me now. Even our Squadron Commander is getting ticked! He said (not to his face) that we need to get the little puke out of the unit.
.

Begs the question of which is the greater problem, the new cadet’s less than expected behavior and performance or you getting the blame for recruiting him.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtParent:
.. He will either ignore commands, or say, "I don't have to listen to you!"

It’s difficult to understand how an obsession with Russia contributes or is relevant to the ”I don’t have to listen to you” behavior problem. An obsession with Russia differs little from an obsession with Harry Potter, skate boarding, Video games or any other obsession. However, the cadet is correct no other CAP member can issue an order that is to be obeyed to other CAP members by authority of CAP rank. However, voluntary paid membership in the CAP organization brings with it the condition “to obey the decisions of those in authority and to follow and adhere to the appropriate regulations and the Constitution and Bylaws of the Civil Air Patrol” (CAPR 39-2). The CAP organization can also terminate cadet memberships for misconduct (although vague of what misconduct is and isn’t) and for Failure to progress satisfactorily in the CAP cadet program (CAPR 35-3).

The termination of membership is certainly an always on the table option and hopefully the substandard performance and undesirable behavior is being documented.

However significant information is not being disclosed such as the age of the cadet. The desired performance and behavior improvement may never happen if corrective or improvement actions are only being pursued within the cadet ranks. A senior member (adult) need to be informed and become involved, if this has not already happened.

Cadet age variable is a factor (12-18 years). Lots of interpersonal reasoning ability and perceptions developing between ages 12 to about 16 plus. There is also learning variability what one cadet might easily learn another may have difficulties learning and this influences ability and interest to focus on doing or learning tasks. Age may hinder or obstruct ability of a younger new cadet to recognize the slight older and more experienced cadets as having authority.

Directing performance of individual physical fitness activities as a behavior modification is an ineffective tool for such purposes. Physical Fitness is an effective group technique and has its limits in individual personalized behavior modification and certainly is lacking in being a discipline technique. In the Air Force, the Pararescue Indoctrination and selection Course is about the only activity that indulges and relies excessively on physical fitness as a learning and assessment tool. There is strict oversight and monitoring put in place to ensure the use of physical fitness stress inducers don’t cross-the-line into student abuse and student endangerment. A Pararescue NCO on an operational team who resorts to physical fitness to correct a behavior problem (other than for failure to sustain mission ready physical fitness performance standards) would be laughed out of the career field as there are many other better methods available to improve or better performance and behavior.

Hopefully the substandard performance an inappropriate behavior is being document and brought to the cadet’s attention before the mother is talked to. Awareness of adult involvement may strengthen understanding there is a line of authority in the cadet ranks. Interpersonal relationships may be a contributing cause to the problem and the senior member is better able to assess this possibility and deal with it. A senior member should be bringing the problem to discussion with the mother and not a cadet office. It is my opinion consulting with the mother will not result in making better the cadet’s behavior and performance in doing CAP duties. The behavior and performance problem is not in the home. No attempt to control behavior will be effective if it is remote from the act that provokes it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: johca,

The greater problem is, of course, the cadets behavior. The flight sergeant is actually angry at me. The sergeant was just teasing me where I had said that he looked like he might be a good cadet, where he seemed very enthusiastic in our conversation before the first meeting.
Second, your suggestions are all very good, and actions any unit would take... But the fact is, we are talking about a timeframe of his membership being no more than two meetings. Out of those two, the behavior problems have really shown themselves at the end of the last and into the second. Senior level is getting into the situation. Because of such a short time frame, it is to be understood that not every action could have been taken at the present time. I asked for suggestions here in order to get some ideas of lower level discipline so that it doesn't have to develop into anything big. I was hoping someone might know of any lectures or activities that would help to sway the kid's point of view to understand the discipline structure.
The obsessed with Russia comment was more of a joke. When learning drill, he would swing his legs while conducting left/right faces. When told how to do it right, he loudly complained that it wasn't how Russia did it. With all the Russian drill moves, comments, and references, it seems like Russia was deeply embedded into his thought process. It wasn't meant as an example of his behavioral shortcomings, more of a joke.
And speaking with his mother, which will be done by an adult, is a last ditch effort if all else fails. We would like to find out if he has any medical/mental reasons for his behavior.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtParent:
The obsessed with Russia comment was more of a joke. When learning drill, he would swing his legs while conducting left/right faces. When told how to do it right, he loudly complained that it wasn't how Russia did it.

However, now we have a direct cause and effect example. A undesirable performance not to standards. Now the question is does the how Russians do it an obsession with Russia or more a convenient association to give an excuse for the turning against authority or being the clown for attention behavior. The problem is determining if the cause is associated with turning against authority, being a clown for attention or a few other causes.

I’m somewhat confident the problem is not an obsession with Russia only because of the example provided. I’m sure you are some what frustrated or tired with the way I kept asking to explain elite in another forum, but it also has some relevance to a new member trying to integrate and fit into a new group. I’m not alleging overt and deliberate hazing or initiation ritual is causing the problem, but lack of tolerating the new person not conforming as expected and how the group is responding can be feeding an exaggerating of a inability or difficulty to cope and adapt. While peer and cadet centered approaches typically promote new members conforming to group standards, sometimes peer and cadet centered approaches cause the opposite to happen. This is why age is important as youth has quick leaps to the position you are not in charge of me or the boss of me. If this is a contributing element to the problem it will not be resolved by peer pressure. It will require an adult authority to resolve and correct if such resolution is possible.

It is going to take somebody who has the patience and the willingness to try determining what is influencing the behavior to include determining if the peer group leaders are intentionally or unintentionally feeding it. He wants to be in CAP, if so something is in conflict or coping and adapting skills ore out of whack. Figure this out and then you can determine if the person is worth the effort to salvage as a member or not. If you determine the member is salvageable then you can develop a course of action to correct the behavior problem. If unsalvageable, either revoke membership or not allow it to be renewed.

All good advice. I'll see about having a Senior Member speak with and counsel the cadet. And I agree that the "obsession" with Russia is not the problem at all. I think that it is more of a desire for attention thing, where he desires to make the flight sergeant laugh, or what ever.
On what may turn out to be a related subject, the Flight Commander, who in my squadron works very closly with the cadets as opposed to some other squadrons, is known to be a little... short with the cadets. That isn't to say that she throws chairs or anything, but I have personally witnessed her scaring prospective members off with her impatience for imperfect results. (such as learning drill a little slowly) She is a good flight commander, but if the impatience is scaring kids off, that is a problem. Now in the context of our problem child, I am not saying that his case is the typical slow to start case that results in the Flight Commander getting impatient, and as a matter of fact I know this is not that kind of case whatsoever. The problem is that he displays behavior that so many people find annoying to the point that is hinders smooth operation. Perhaps the problem might be that he sees the Flight Commander getting angry, and tries to cheer her up with his clowning around, or talking out of turn? Maybe he is attracted to her? Maybe he has ADHD? The fact is that he acts that way while away from the Flight Commander, so it may be a character trait. However, all this does not eliminate the possibility that his flight staff is being too hard on him. Being Recruiting and Retention officer, I had to give him the rundown on the program, and even then it was evident to me that he was, in my opinion, irritating. However, I did see that where I did treat him as an equal, he did not give me any insubordinate attitude, leading me to believe maybe he wants some respect. It may be hard for the Flight Commander to act in a way that is both authoritarian and like an equal, but perhaps the answer to this puzzle is finding the perfect balance between the two...?

quote:

Originally posted by SgtParent:
Maybe he is attracted to her? Maybe he has ADHD?

Answer to 1 possible; answer to 2 unlikely. She likes scaring subordinates? I do watch Battlestar Gallactica, does she like to intimidate like Admiral Cain did in the Razor episode, if so it certainly can be a contributing factor. If I was a cadet I probably would definitely try to push that button.

A BS BTW-this season's opening episode of Battlestar Galactica had a strip poker scene in officer lounge (no T&A shown) where there was a shadow box in the background that had USAF SSgt stripes and some other Air Force memorabilia (that freeze frame didn't help in getting the image resolution needed to identify) in it. Makes you wonder if they are looking for Earth how that stuff got there. Last Friday's episode it was disclosed the final 5 cylons know where Earth is because they came from Earth. Now its bugging me if one of those cylons was in the Air Force before he or she left Earth. It also shows you how much many do not pay attention to detail as I’ve not seen mention of this shadow box anyplace.

You fellas need to get senior members to handle this.

johca, I seem to remember that shadow box, too, and just dismissed it as a parallel development of rank insignia, similar to some of the other similarities frequently seen, such as the Marine's combat helmets.

quote:

Originally posted by johca:

quote:

Originally posted by SgtParent:
Maybe he is attracted to her? Maybe he has ADHD?

Answer to 1 possible; answer to 2 unlikely. She likes scaring subordinates? I do watch Battlestar Gallactica, does she like to intimidate like Admiral Cain did in the Razor episode, if so it certainly can be a contributing factor. If I was a cadet I probably would definitely try to push that button.

A BS BTW-this season's opening episode of Battlestar Galactica had a strip poker scene in officer lounge (no T&A shown) where there was a shadow box in the background that had USAF SSgt stripes and some other Air Force memorabilia (that freeze frame didn't help in getting the image resolution needed to identify) in it. Makes you wonder if they are looking for Earth how that stuff got there. Last Friday's episode it was disclosed the final 5 cylons know where Earth is because they came from Earth. Now its bugging me if one of those cylons was in the Air Force before he or she left Earth. It also shows you how much many do not pay attention to detail as I’ve not seen mention of this shadow box anyplace.

Sorry, don't watch that, so I can't really relate to that paralell.

I recall some kind of theory I read, about separate societies having similarities in their development as they evolve, although they never come into contact with each other.

quote:

Originally posted by GeneSchubeck:
I recall some kind of theory I read, about separate societies having similarities in their development as they evolve, although they never come into contact with each other.

Very true... Just there are a couple of details I could not glean from the description of the BS paralell. Such as, what kind of person is the Admiral? Are the people on the show like my problem child? Is the Admiral a girl? Why is the specific episode relative to my case? Having never seen the show, I can't understand all aspects of the comparison.

Battlestar aside.

THis kid is new. I don't know how well the regulations, and what is expected in terms of behavior, has been explained to him. He needs a serious, Senior Member authority figure to take him aside, with the senior enlisted and officer cadet, and draw a picture for him, explain the regs, etc. If he can't commit to the standards, he needs to be cut loose, so he does not damage the organization and ruin a good experience for the serious cadets.

Having the Senior Memeber include the top enlisted ond officer cadets will send a message to the kid that there is a rank structure for them, and that even though they are all cadets, they are authority figures.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtParent:
Is the Admiral a girl? Why is the specific episode relative to my case? Having never seen the show, I can't understand all aspects of the comparison.

Yes and she enjoys hazing new officers reporting to her ship. It is relevant to group management techniques and how the group influences behavior of a new member in the group. That particular episode has some significant identity behavior flaws with overlapping situations that were exploited pertinent to developing the story line. Not important other than it came to mind as I was gathering my thought on group management and influence on new members joining the group when writing my previous comment on this thread.

Without a first hand look into the events/actions described I don't know that I could offer any real recommendations as to handle the cadet.

When I read the intial post all I thought was "perspective."

Is the behavior something that is "expected" of C/Amn or is it something that you or others may have lost perspective on?

I remember a few years back starting to get angry about the "undisciplined" new cadets. I had to stop and remember what I was like when I joined the program - yep, just like them.

I had lost perspective of where I came from and had to get it back. Often we are so caught up in trying to be high-speed, disciplined, etc but fail to remember that they need to learn about CAPs culture and expectations, just like you did.

There isn't any problem with correcting them, but remember that they will need to be corrected, sometimes often, as part of the learning process.

Just don't lose perspective.

What is happening in the CAP. I was a member in 1956-1958 and if someone joined up and would not listen, we got rid of them. Everyone knows what to expect before joining, so there is no excuse for this individual.

Nothing "happened" to CAP. People who are insubordinate are still not "welcome." However, youthful exuberance isn't a disqualifier.

Without first hand experience into the situation, I don't think that any of us can pass jugement about this cadets action.

We are not appeasing those who wish to not follow our rules, but expecting someone to know all the rules immediately is not good policy. With cadets, their purpose is to learn, and our purpose is to teach.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtParent:
Very good advice, but here's the thing... He wants to be in CAP. The real kicker is that I am the Recruiting and Retention officer, so on the first day, I told him of all the great benefits of the program, and got him real excited about joining. This was all before we knew what he was like. Since then, we have found out what he is like, and his Flight Sergeant isn't too happy with me now. Even our Squadron Commander is getting ticked! He said (not to his face) that we need to get the little puke out of the unit.
It's really too bad that he is such a insolent little spaz, he seemed so excited about the program that I thought for sure he would make an ideal cadet. Perhaps we will see about speaking with his mother...

If he wants to be in CAP....then he has to follow the rules.

Start by limiting what he can do. If he does not act right in regular meetings then you tell him he can't do to the airshow/bivoc/encampment/sarex/etc until he gets his act together.

Get your senior members involved. Have them talk to his parents and get everyone on the same page of music.

If those things don't help...then it's time to cut your loses. 2b him. It's not a pretty thing to see...but sometimes it what you need to do because you have a whole unit to think about.

I wish it was perspective, but it definatly is not an issue of lack of perspective. He pushed the Cadet Commander, he eats popcorn at attention, and will not listen to ANYTHING.

By "pushed" the Cadet Commander, do you mean he physically pushed him, or do you mean it in terms of pushed his behavior, or pushed his button? If he physically pushed him/her, and it was unprovoked and not self defense, then you have some more serious issues than someone eating popcorn at attention. Assaulting another person is not acceptable, and if the Senior staff have not done anything about it, then they are wrong. They are responsible for the safety of the Cadets.